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Test thh that you do not convert yourself Options
 
Jacubey
#1 Posted : 4/26/2022 4:33:33 AM
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I recently came across some thh. I had heard thh was amazing from some posts that ava69 has made (specifically involving hpbcd too).

Anyway, I was less than impressed with the Thh I got and until recently didn't know how to test to make sure it was what I thought it was. I've since read ava69's posts more thoroughly and realized I can do a simple UV test.

  • Dissolve a small amount of the freebase product in vinegar/water
  • Shine a UV lamp on it


Assuming that you know you have harmala alkaloids:
Green glow means harmaline (thh is made via conversion from harmaline)
Blue glow means harmine or thh (bioassay to check)

Blueish green hue would mean either incomplete conversion, or just full spectrum extract sold as thh.

The stuff I have glows bright green with no blue hue to speak of at all. It seems I was sold straight harmaline. The color of the powder and UV glow indicate harmaline.

I will perform a thh conversion some time in the next week, and post pictures for yall to see
 

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_Trip_
#2 Posted : 4/26/2022 5:04:21 AM

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I was talking to DF0 about this just the other day, apparently even a small fraction of harmaline can throw a green tinge instead of blue.
I would guess TLC would be a more accurate test.

So there's still a good chance your product is mostly THH.
Disclaimer: All my posts are of total fiction.



 
Jacubey
#3 Posted : 4/26/2022 1:21:03 PM
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There's a good chance you're right. Still, I will do a thh conversion and try to make some apples-apples comparisons between the 3

I plan to:


  • record a timelapse of the conversion under uv
  • separate the freebase thh
  • dissolve 10mg of tetrahydroharmine in 10ml vinegar
  • dissolve 10mg of harmine in 10ml vinegar
  • dissolve 10mg of harmaline in 10ml vinegar
  • UV lamp them side by side
  • post the results here


I haven't seen this done anywhere, and it ought to serve as a decent benchmark for people doing this themselves.
 
downwardsfromzero
#4 Posted : 4/26/2022 8:53:26 PM

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Jacubey wrote:
There's a good chance you're right. Still, I will do a thh conversion and try to make some apples-apples comparisons between the 3

I plan to:


  • record a timelapse of the conversion under uv
  • separate the freebase thh
  • dissolve 10mg of tetrahydroharmine in 10ml vinegar
  • dissolve 10mg of harmine in 10ml vinegar
  • dissolve 10mg of harmaline in 10ml vinegar
  • UV lamp them side by side
  • post the results here


I haven't seen this done anywhere, and it ought to serve as a decent benchmark for people doing this themselves.

That's OK on the face of it but still relies on having pure harmaline and pure harmine. While pure harmine should have a blue glow, even small amounts of harmaline can confound this because its fluorescence is so much stronger.

The low concentration is a good idea (up to a point) - highly concentrated harmala solutions become self-quenching (or an impurity in my crude alkaloid mixture acts in that capacity) and display only minimal fluorescence.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Jacubey
#5 Posted : 4/26/2022 10:35:24 PM
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downwardsfromzero wrote:

That's OK on the face of it but still relies on having pure harmaline and pure harmine. While pure harmine should have a blue glow, even small amounts of harmaline can confound this because its fluorescence is so much stronger.


The harmine I have glows distinctly blue when dissolved, and the harmaline is distinctly green, so I'm fairly confident my materials are pure enough for simple qualitative analysis like this. Mostly though I just want to see if I can see the green->blue conversion while the reaction is occurring, because I think it'd be cool. Maybe we can learn something from the time gradiant. I dunno
 
downwardsfromzero
#6 Posted : 4/26/2022 10:41:56 PM

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That's good to hear, I look forward to reports of your experiments. What will you be using for the reduction?




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Jacubey
#7 Posted : 4/27/2022 12:48:21 AM
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I was initially going to go the zinc route. I'd bought lab-grade zinc, then when I was going over the conversion some more I came across a thread you were involved in. Somebody mentioned zinc being contaminated with cadmium and lead, and forming double salts with the alkaloids and being very difficult if not impossible to separate in a home lab.

I couldn't find any food grade zinc dust, so I've decided to switch to magnesium. I assume magnesium does not have heavy metal contamination problems, because I couldn't find much about it. I'll have magnesium ribbon coming in around Thursday and will go through with the experiment Friday.

Its probably a good time to mention that I'm not a chemist. I'm just following recipes and trying to be safe about it

Tl;dr: magnesium
 
ShadedSelf
#8 Posted : 4/27/2022 11:57:05 AM

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The only magnesium ribbon that I could find with a proper analysis sheet had a <= 0.01% lead content, this was a >= 99.5% magnesium ribbon.

As far as I can tell this contaminants are going to be present to some degree no matter what, though blue.magic claims here to get really clean product with their zinc reduction.
 
Jacubey
#9 Posted : 4/27/2022 3:54:08 PM
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ShadedSelf wrote:
The only magnesium ribbon that I could find with a proper analysis sheet had a <= 0.01% lead content, this was a >= 99.5% magnesium ribbon.


Interesting. I haven't been able to find any reports anywhere about lead in magnesium, except that lead, cobalt, and zinc can sometimes be substituted in to dolomite (the ore we primarily get magnesium from). I think it's reasonable to assume that the lead in magnesium ribbon will be in trace amounts. With zinc if you don't have a lab report you can be sure there is significant lead present, since they are deposited in to the same ore.

I'm glad to hear that their reduction with zinc went well in that other thread. I'm just not comfortable with it. TIL about heavy metal test strips though. I will need to get my hands on some of those.
 
ava69
#10 Posted : 4/27/2022 8:41:06 PM

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Great post by Shadedself. Jacubey, I've taken THH made with the zinc route at least 200 times over 10 years...it's completely safe. There is no contamination. I have normal twice a year bloodwork done as I'm a bodybuilder, and never any lead. I mean zero. FYI: Lead poisoning is most frequently diagnosed using a common blood test. No disrepect, but I recommend the zinc route over the magnesium ribbon, as all the reports so far with the magnesium ribbon indicate the laxative magnesium by-product travels along with the end THH, and cannot be separated, this makes knowing the actual THH dose very difficult.

#101 micron filter disc vacuum filtration removes any and all metals 100%:

Post #12 with pics on how to do this: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=96861
Pics of what the THH looks like on post #405 with latest journey: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...ts&t=96861&p=21

Blue.magic said:
Quote:
I use a heavy metal test strips to check the THH solution and I found there is less than 100 ppb of heavy metal cations (Zn(II)) in a concentrated solution of THH I made from the final product. The tests strips check for many heavy metals, not only zinc. Metals like tin, cobalt, copper, lead, mercury etc.

If there is less than 100 ppb in the entire solution, then the THH precipitate is certainly safe.
You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.

If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
 
Jacubey
#11 Posted : 4/28/2022 3:19:15 PM
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I can appreciate that other people have done zinc reductions and not detected lead, but short of some chemical explanation to where the lead went, I won't be comfortable doing it without my own lead testing. I'm not using the same zinc they used, so I still worry

So, I will do both zinc and magnesium reactions, record them both under UV, post the results, and if I'm happy enough with the samples I get out of the reactions maybe I can send them both off to a lab for testing. I will also buy my own lead test strips just for my own peace of mind
 
ava69
#12 Posted : 4/29/2022 2:36:49 PM

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Jacubey said:
Quote:
but short of some chemical explanation....
Long time chemist. #101 micron filter disc vacuum filtration removes any and all metals 100%, see post #12 with pics, explanation: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=96861

You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.

If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
 
Jacubey
#13 Posted : 4/29/2022 4:53:46 PM
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Ok I think I'm beginning to understand now. The general understanding is that there is no need to worry about lead contamination, because lead will have not dissolved in to the vinegar solution? Perhaps the thing I read overstated the concern about lead salts. It sounds like at room temperature and without an oxidizing agent, lead salts are unlikely to form at a dangerous rate, and therefore remain in powder form.
 
downwardsfromzero
#14 Posted : 4/30/2022 1:03:23 AM

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ava69 wrote:
all the reports so far with the magnesium ribbon indicate the laxative magnesium by-product travels along with the end THH, and cannot be separated, this makes knowing the actual THH dose very difficult.
I've successfully separated magnesium from harmala alkaloids after a reduction on rue tea and it's clean and simple, arguably better than the ammonia separation of zinc. The key is to redissolve the initial base precipitate in phosphoric acid and then base carefully with fairly concentrated ammonia. Magnesium precipitates as dense, pure white magnesium ammonium phosphate at around pH 6, then the harmine comes down from pH 6.5 upwards - so it's easy to filter off the magnesium and if the conversion of harmaline is complete there's an enormous amount of leeway before the THH comes out of solution.

Phosphoric acid followed by ammonia is the key to working with magnesium reduction.

The other option (discounting the very friendly and efficient but sadly not very OTC sodium borohydride for the time being) is the possibility we're still exploring of the ascorbic acid reduction/disproportionation which doesn't require any dissolving metals. I've been using the product of this process lately and it's very smooth to the point that I see no reason to fiddle around with any other chemical processes except perhaps to do a TLC analysis.

The mixed alkaloids from a PC/ascorbic acid cook of rue seed gave some beautiful visuals with just a small dash of spice.

Jacubey wrote:
It sounds like at room temperature and without an oxidizing agent, lead salts are unlikely to form at a dangerous rate, and therefore remain in powder form.
Any lead which is present remains in metallic form as it is less reactive than zinc, certainly until all the zinc has been used up and even then lead is only slowly and poorly soluble in cold hydrochloric acid.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
ava69
#15 Posted : 4/30/2022 8:59:31 PM

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Good work downwardsfromzero!
You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.

If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
 
Jacubey
#16 Posted : 5/1/2022 1:13:09 AM
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Finally performed 2 zinc reactions (one with 1g of harmaline, another with 1.5g)

The first attempt I recorded the whole reaction under UV (which may have effected the outcome). I notice that it goes from green to blue-green to practically no glow by the time the reaction is finished. I see reported in many places that thh does not glow above a certain concentration, so this sounds correct. Another mistake I made was filtering the zinc, then letting the still acidic thh solution sit overnight. By the morning the mixture was slightly more golden, and the precipitates are red and tan. The red i suspect is oxidized harmaline or something. I've seen this on my desk before after spilling a full spectrum freebase extract. I don't know what it really is, though.

The second attempt I took individual pictures at various stages. It seems to glow more blue than the other by the end of the reaction. After allowing the thh to precipitate in a very cold fridge for about 3 hours, I check it with UV to find there is a very distinct harmaline fraction at the top with thh precipitates at the bottom. Maybe useful for decanting the harmaline, but it might be easier to just precipitate the harmaline after separating all the liquid. The presumed Thh precipitate appears bright white

I'll work on figuring out the preferred way to get images here.



I'm not sure how to make the images display better, so I'll just number them:
1. Precipitated thh on the bottom, clear middle fraction, harmaline(?) on the top
2. Same as 1, but without UV
3. Same as 1, but from the top
4. Precipitated failed reaction from the top
5. Same as 4, from the side
6. harmaline freebase dissolved in vinegar on slow spin
7. Zinc added
8. starting reaction under UV
9. 30 minutes later, zinc has coagulated, solution has turned clear with a slight golden tinge
10. Same as 9, under UV
11. Final product, drying and pending final rinse

I took more pictures at 1h and 1.5h during the reaction, but not much changes appearance wise.

I can make a gif of the timelapse, but its not particularly interesting.
Jacubey attached the following image(s):
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_Trip_
#17 Posted : 5/1/2022 8:40:52 AM

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Nice documentation Jacubey.

DFZ, love your work.

I think for my next attempt I'll have to look at utilizing phosphoric acid. And still attempt sodium carbonate. If it doesn't work I'll have to make some ammonia concentration when I have the means.

I look forward to reading your work on ascorbic acid.
Disclaimer: All my posts are of total fiction.



 
ava69
#18 Posted : 5/1/2022 10:14:57 AM

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Thanks for your process check and pics Jacubey. I will be leaving for the summer as I spend most my time at the gym and waterpark down the road, but here's a quick summary of the zinc method for anyone interested, its very easy, and 2 other people have followed here with great results using a cotton ball stuffed in funnel instead of vacuum. Same method I've used for a decade: Post #12 with pics: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=96861

I only do this around 3 times in a lifetime, so I have enough THH to last a lifetime, as I tend to use 300mg at least x 3 times a month. It's a lot of hard work extracting the rue. The harmaline to THH part is easy.

Now once you have your harmaline freebase...

1) place 10.5 grams of harmaline in a 1 liter pyrex cup style glass
2) add 900ml vinegar
3) add 40g zinc dust in the pyrex glass too, use 40g zinc dust per each 10.5 grams of harmaline. You will see tiny hydrogen bubbles rise to the surface.
4) place beaker solution on a magnetic stirrer with stir rod and spin entire solution slowly
5) spin for 1.5 hour, then let solution sit for 1 hour without spinning so the zinc dust can settle to the bottom. The solution will have turned from a beginning dark green color to a transparent like golden color after it sits 1 hour after the 1.5 hour spin. Use the end of a cotton q tip to place in solution and dab on paper plate in front of blacklight, the smear will now glow light blue when transition is done...

6) Remember, once done with spin, let the solution sit for 1 hour, most (99.5%) of the zinc dust will settle to bottom, then filter solution above the zinc over a #101 9cm filter disc fitted to a vacuum flask with vacuum trap in series with your vacuum pump, this will give you a transparent golden color liquid, use this solution for next step.

Throw away any zinc dust you just collected on filter disc (be careful, don't throw zinc on top aluminum foil in garbage or it will smoke due to hydrogen loaded zinc, best to put used zinc in a baggie with water to keep it moist, keep away from aluminum).

The pump/vacuum filter flask & filter disc will remove 100% of any zinc dust. so in other words, filter pyrex beaker solution (takes out the zinc dust) over a #101 9cm filter disc fitted inside a vacuum filtration flask hooked up to a vacuum pump, with a small vacuum trap in series, in-between the filtration flask and the pump. A good pump is JB platinum DV-142N 5 CFM heavy duty vacuum pump.

Cool you are left with a 100% clear transparent with just a touch of golden very light yellow color with no zinc dust at all...now add (80ml of 10% janitorial ammonium hydroxide per 2g of harmaline)...so this means add 400ml of the 10% ammonium hydroxide to your solution...you will immediately see the thh crash out of solution as a white powder, place mason jar in fridge for at least 3 hours, the crystals will all be seen at bottom of mason jar. I like to let jars sit in fridge overnight then collect the THH at the bottom of the jars early the next morning. As you have already done quite a bit of work the 1st day.

7) you will collect 7.5 grams THH freebase on the filter disc sitting in your vacuum filtration flask once you pour fridge cold solution over a #101 9cm filter disc in your vacuumm pump, rinse THH with some hot or cold water. put filter disc of thh in a pyrex tray, scrape off and dry under fan.

8] always this will happen: exactly 75% is the yield, as I don't know why this is so...but it's a great yield still. Even in TIHKAL, the yield was similar, right at 75% as well.

9) The more zinc you use, the faster the reaction progresses, so 35 to 40g zinc means the reaction is finished by 1.5 hour.

I've looked at the #101 filter after filtration, hardly anything at all on it, truly only less than 1% of the zinc dust remains to be filtered after sitting for 1 hour.

If you don't have a vacuum pump/filtration setup: Personally, I believe the cotton ball in a funnel to be one of the greatest inventions of all time--and think it would work just fine for filtering out the remaining less than 1% zinc dust, remember 99.5% of the zinc dust falls to the bottom already after sitting for 1 hour after the spin mantel is turned off. What you are filtering is actually the less than 1% of zinc dust from the very bottom after sitting that gets kicked up back into the solution as you are decanting it off. 2 people here have said the cotton ball stuffed in funnel does indeed work to remove any lingering (less than 0.5%) zinc dust, and said their resulting THH worked fine.

p.s. I also saw an episode of "Ancient Aliens" in which they discovered remnants of zinc dust inside one of the chambers, and they believe the Egyptians were making hydrogen gas using zinc and vinegar, speculating that the great pyramid was some sort of power generating device.

Pic 1: One way to make tetrahydroharmine

Pic 2 (not shown): Dissolve your rue hcl extract into warm 120 degree F water so it all dissolves, drop in two high precision PH meters, start the spin mantel, and add drops of 10% hardware store ammonium hydroxide until you reach ph=7 when the harmine only will fall out, ph 7.1 to ph 7.9 = small middle fraction of harmaline mixed with harmine, put away and save for a rainy day when doing another extraction to add back in, ph 8.0 and above = all the harmaline only.

Pic 3: 75 grams of pure tetrahydroharmine, will last me a lifetime, more valuable to me than any gold, never depart with. Pure THH glows blue under blacklight when a bit dabbed onto vinegar soaked cue tip and smeared on plate under blacklight.
In order to create the 75g very pure THH that will last me a lifetime, here a few pics of the end stage. Just follow the "Tao of rue extraction" here, or something similar to get to the ending stage where you then precipitate pure harmine & pure harmaline following instructions here.

pic 4: 274 grams rue salt, 200 grams of this rue salt was used to precipitate the below alkaloids, rest put away.
pic 5: 23g pure harmine fb precipitated at ph=7.0
pic 6: not shown: 5g middle fb precipitation (ph=7.1 to 7.5 is a small precipitation of harmine with some harmaline mix), put away to save for a rainy day when you do another rue extract, to add back in, to further separate.
pic 7: 116g pure harmaline fb precipitated above ph=7.5.
pic 8: 75g very pure tetrahydroharmine fb made from 100g of the harmaline fb (around 75% yield, similar to yield in TIHKAL, which was also 75%). But the conversion uses all over the counter chemicals (ammonium hydroxide, vinegar, zinc dust) unlike the TIHKAL synthesis.
pic 9: top to bottom: Sublingual Ayahuasca: 300mg pure THH taken 45 minutes earlier orally, 35mg harmine fb, 35 x 7 or 210mg HPBCD to complex the harmine in 3 drops boiling hot water, 150mg dmt fb, 150 x 7 or 1050mg HPBCD to complex the DMT in 12 drops boiling hot water. Trip report here (post #45): https://www.dmt-nexus.me...ts&t=96861&p=21
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You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.

If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
 
merkin
#19 Posted : 5/1/2022 10:32:14 AM

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I have the exact same mag stirrer, and I was very embarrassed about its condition after a few 'accidents' - nice to see one in even worse nick, lol.
 
ShadedSelf
#20 Posted : 5/1/2022 11:23:03 AM

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Ive adquired some ascorbic acid and intend to try that method soon.

Would vitamin C still reduce harmaline in its acetate form?
I usually add some vinegar in the boiling steps and Im not sure if that would interfere in this case.

I also wonder if it would be more efficient to perform the PCing with ascorbic acid as its own separate step once you have a cleanish extract.
 
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