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DMT salts for e-juice Options
 
Loveall
#1 Posted : 2/6/2022 9:35:17 PM

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The idea of using DMT salts follows the commercial success of Juul's development of nicotine salts as explained in this thread.

My first attempt was DMT benzoate, but it crashes from PG at room temp.

Want to report I'm getting some traction with DMT citrate. It is staying dissolved in PG Smile

Here is what I did:

- 1g of FB DMT mixed with 2g of PG in a hot water bath
- pH strip ~9, yes we are vaping lip numbing alkaloids as we know πŸ˜…
- Added citric acid and checked pH. While citric acid is reported to be only 10% soluble in PG (200mg), I was able to keep on adding beyond that, presumably because DMT citrate is more soluble. After 400mg of citric acid fully dissolving the pH paper came out neutral.

So currently have I this experimental e-juice with DMT citrate and perhaps some free DMT remaining at some level. I'll add 600mg of VG and then do some vaping tests, see what happens.

The hope is that this e-juice has the same benefits of nicotine salts: Smoother (no alkaline harshness), absorbed well by the lungs (nicotine salts are absorbed better than FB nicotine per the info in the post mentioned above). Another hope is that the e-juice is more stable in salt form. Free base DMT e-juice changes color for me over time towards red and becomes less effective.

For reference, see pH measurements below. Right drop is from standard FB e-juice, left drop is after dissolving the citric acid and converting the e-juice to a DMT salt.
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downwardsfromzero
#2 Posted : 2/6/2022 10:58:56 PM

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Thanks for sharing this useful tidbit - yet another one, indeed.

Citric is so much more convenient than benzoic in terms of OTC-ness.




β€œThere is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Loveall
#3 Posted : 2/8/2022 12:03:10 AM

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I took a shy hit at 35 watts.It worked!. Saw nice mandalas, nice sub threshold stuff.

Can't judge for potency. Seemed the same as free base. Hard to tell exactly. The detailed nicotine salt e juice studies said it absorbed well. Example plot below.

The vapor tasted salty and pleasant. For me, this is an improvement vs. the lip numbing free base flavor I experience. Less smelly too (but some like the smell). Also I expect it will be stable and not change color like free base e-juice does for me. Time will tell.

How to convert your FB e-juice to salt? Simply see previous post. Start with 2:1 PG:DMT ratio dissolved in a hot water bath. Add 0.4 parts citric acid (juice will go from alkaline to ~neutral on pH paper). Then add 0.3 parts VG. Liquid will be pretty dense but vaped well towards the lower power of the power range (smooth vapor production, no bubbling/crackling).

Safety note: proceed at your own risk. Citrate salt is not very researched in e-juice. Study the info out there and make your own decision. At high wattage/temp citric acid can break down. It could generate radicals, like cigarette smoke. I would not use it without VG and/or above 35 watts.

Future work: fog posted they dissolved harmala benzoate salt in PG/VG 50/50 mix at 10%. I wonder about the harmala citric salt, see if e-juice salt changa could be made. e-juasca? πŸ˜…. Love my sublingual harmalas, but for fun may try to make e-juasca.
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downwardsfromzero
#4 Posted : 2/8/2022 1:07:19 AM

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Harm reduction preamble:
While citrate is practically ubiquitous in living organisms and thus neutral citrate should be relatively safe if it is atomised/vaped at a temperature which minimises thermolysis, thermolysis of citric acid produces itaconic acid at lower temperatures and its anhydride with further heating (Barbooti and Al-Sammerrai (1986)) which subsequently decarboxylates and rearranges to methylmaleic (citraconic) anhydride. Significant decomposition of citric acid begins from around 175°C, and although the solvent matrix may offer a small amount of protection here we've yet to find out the stability parameters for DMT citrate in PG/VG. Citraconic anhydride is a respiratory sensitizer so the caveat about sticking to low vaping temperatures should be heeded in order to minimise its formation.

Link to citraconic anhydride SDS (downloads pdf)



What type of atomizer did you use?




β€œThere is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Loveall
#5 Posted : 2/8/2022 3:13:49 AM

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I'm using a geek vape z max tank.

Thanks for the harm reduction input πŸ‘ There are a few commerical e-juice products in the US with citric acid, but that doesn't guarantee safety in our unregulated market. Also, the concentration I'm using here is pretty high.

I'll watch for any issues. The small test I did was very smooth so will build on that. Will watch for any sensitivity or allergic like reactions.
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Loveall
#6 Posted : 2/15/2022 2:09:20 PM

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Update: after further testing, DMT citrate aerosolized (informally called vaped) e-juice is looking good in practice.

As I said, everyone should consider that citric acid breaks down to smaller organic compounds above 175C. No issues observed aerosolizing at an expected temperature of ~200C with a 35W setting. Higher settings have not been tested. Ideally the power is pulsed while inhaling so the vapor is not overwhelming.

Just sharing the info I have. Personally I'm using this type of e-juice from now on. To review, the upsides vs free base are:

- Smooth flavor (keep airflow open, when airflow was closed flavor was bad). Perhaps airflow is important to get a good aerosol and not overheat the citrate molecule.
- Near physiological pH. No harshness or lip numbing observed.
- Effective. As potent as equivalent FB or better. Hard to gauge, but when measuring nicotine salts, they were more effective than nicotine FB
- Potentially longer shelf life vs FB. However, this has not been tested and needs to be verified

So when life gives you lemons, maybe just make a DMT citrate e-juice πŸ‹πŸ˜‰

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Cheelin
#7 Posted : 2/15/2022 2:31:48 PM

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Nice, leading edge work, as usual!
 
Dirty T
#8 Posted : 2/15/2022 5:23:52 PM

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downwardsfromzero wrote:
Harm reduction preamble:
While citrate is practically ubiquitous in living organisms and thus neutral citrate should be relatively safe if it is atomised/vaped at a temperature which minimises thermolysis, thermolysis of citric acid produces itaconic acid at lower temperatures and its anhydride with further heating (Barbooti and Al-Sammerrai (1986)) which subsequently decarboxylates and rearranges to methylmaleic (citraconic) anhydride. Significant decomposition of citric acid begins from around 175°C, and although the solvent matrix may offer a small amount of protection here we've yet to find out the stability parameters for DMT citrate in PG/VG. Citraconic anhydride is a respiratory sensitizer so the caveat about sticking to low vaping temperatures should be heeded in order to minimise its formation.

Link to citraconic anhydride SDS (downloads pdf)



What type of atomizer did you use?

This is the exact reason certain nicotine vaping liquids have a warning on them "not for use in sub ohm devices" preceded by a big red CAUTION!
 
Loveall
#9 Posted : 2/15/2022 7:26:32 PM

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Dirty T wrote:
downwardsfromzero wrote:
Harm reduction preamble:
While citrate is practically ubiquitous in living organisms and thus neutral citrate should be relatively safe if it is atomised/vaped at a temperature which minimises thermolysis, thermolysis of citric acid produces itaconic acid at lower temperatures and its anhydride with further heating (Barbooti and Al-Sammerrai (1986)) which subsequently decarboxylates and rearranges to methylmaleic (citraconic) anhydride. Significant decomposition of citric acid begins from around 175°C, and although the solvent matrix may offer a small amount of protection here we've yet to find out the stability parameters for DMT citrate in PG/VG. Citraconic anhydride is a respiratory sensitizer so the caveat about sticking to low vaping temperatures should be heeded in order to minimise its formation.

Link to citraconic anhydride SDS (downloads pdf)



What type of atomizer did you use?

This is the exact reason certain nicotine vaping liquids have a warning on them "not for use in sub ohm devices" preceded by a big red CAUTION!


Do you have sources for this Dirty T?

I found different information: the reason for sub ohm warning was nicotine salts delivering too much nicotine with sub ohm devices. Users that have ignored this warning and have used nicotine salts with sub ohm devices have reported dizziness attributed to too high of a nicotine dose. DMT needs ~10x the dose vs nicotine, and too much of a high dose was not an issue when testing sub-ohm DMT citrate aerosol (aka vape).

Also, while nicotine citrate salts exist, most nicotine salts are made with benzoic acid which doesn't degrade until 300C, so acid degradation is not a concern for these DMT salt juices. Instead, I believe the high dose is the reason for the sub-ohm warning.

Image below is from a file I posted in the link of the first post in this thread.
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some one
#10 Posted : 2/21/2022 1:33:13 PM

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Measuring pH sounds a bit rudimentary. Dissolving a bit too much citric acid in the ejuice with freebase dmt will cause most citric acid to form dmt-citrate, but some citric acid can remain in the ejuice as an acid, which might not be good for your lungs.

Why not dissolve DMT fumerate instead of freebase into ejuice? (If it dissolves that is). You won't have any acid, just 100% dmt salt. I tested nebulizing dmt fumerate. It gave an effect so its psychoactive when inhaled, just that the nebulizer route wasnt very efficient. Would be cool if it works better with esigs.

DMT fumerate is easy to make with some dehydrated acetone and fumaric acid..
some = one | here = some | there = one
 
Loveall
#11 Posted : 2/21/2022 2:11:24 PM

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some one wrote:
Measuring pH sounds a bit rudimentary. Dissolving a bit too much citric acid in the ejuice with freebase dmt will cause most citric acid to form dmt-citrate, but some citric acid will remain in the ejuice as an acid, which might not be good for your lungs. Why not dissolve DMT fumerate instead of freebase into ejuice instead? Easy to make with dehydrated acetone and fumaric acid.


Fumarate could be better, IDK. Haven't tested if DMT fumarate is soluble in PG (DMT benzoate was not). Keep in mind that DMT Fumarate may not be at physiological pH itself, it could be a slightly acidic salt. While the pH strips are crude, they can help tune the pH closer to neutral vs using a pure salt that itself could be slightly acidic. In the case of commerical nicotine benzoate, I believe 10% of the nicotine remains in FB form to achieve a neutral pH overall.

I haven't noticed any lung issues all with the 1g DMT FB : 400mg citric acid ratio. Neither have other folks that have tested it (some with pretty heavy use πŸ˜…). That being said, want to reiterate the warnings out there.

Reason I didn't go with fumaric acid is that I could not find examples of it being used in nicotine e-juice products. However citric acid is used quite a bit in commercial products. This doesn't guarantee safety, but it establishes a record of use. Fumaric would be completely new I believe. Could be completely fine/better, and it has a higher temperature of degradation, it is just less tested in practice. I just don't know.

I do know that for me and other people the DMT citrate salt in e-juice has been great Smile
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some one
#12 Posted : 2/21/2022 2:57:19 PM

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I see, good points. Well, great to hear that citric works.
As for dmt-fumerate, there is only one thing to do: to try it out.
I will give it a go when I have the chance and share results.
If fumerate works we can use FASA to create a smokeable product.
some = one | here = some | there = one
 
Loveall
#13 Posted : 2/21/2022 3:42:06 PM

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some one wrote:
I see, good points. Well, great to hear that citric works.
As for dmt-fumerate, there is only one thing to do: to try it out.
I will give it a go when I have the chance and share results.
If fumerate works we can use FASA to create a smokeable product.


Great, looking forward to your results πŸ™‚
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The Traveler
#14 Posted : 2/24/2022 4:19:49 AM

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Loveall wrote:
I found different information: the reason for sub ohm warning was nicotine salts delivering too much nicotine with sub ohm devices. Users that have ignored this warning and have used nicotine salts with sub ohm devices have reported dizziness attributed to too high of a nicotine dose. DMT needs ~10x the dose vs nicotine, and too much of a high dose was not an issue when testing sub-ohm DMT citrate aerosol (aka vape).

Also, while nicotine citrate salts exist, most nicotine salts are made with benzoic acid which doesn't degrade until 300C, so acid degradation is not a concern for these DMT salt juices. Instead, I believe the high dose is the reason for the sub-ohm warning.

Great work Loveall!

I was wondering what the ohm of the coils is that you use. This since I got myself a Geekvape M100 device together with some high-ohm (1.2) and sub-ohm (0.3) coils and I was wondering what you used together with that 35Watt setting.

To prepare for the vaping journey I already ordered some GV, VG, some aromatics and menthol to try out. Now I only need to extract some DMT first!


Kind regards,

The Traveler
 
Cheelin
#15 Posted : 2/24/2022 5:03:27 AM

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The Traveler wrote:
Loveall wrote:
I found different information: the reason for sub ohm warning was nicotine salts delivering too much nicotine with sub ohm devices. Users that have ignored this warning and have used nicotine salts with sub ohm devices have reported dizziness attributed to too high of a nicotine dose. DMT needs ~10x the dose vs nicotine, and too much of a high dose was not an issue when testing sub-ohm DMT citrate aerosol (aka vape).

Also, while nicotine citrate salts exist, most nicotine salts are made with benzoic acid which doesn't degrade until 300C, so acid degradation is not a concern for these DMT salt juices. Instead, I believe the high dose is the reason for the sub-ohm warning.

Great work Loveall!

I was wondering what the ohm of the coils is that you use. This since I got myself a Geekvape M100 device together with some high-ohm (1.2) and sub-ohm (0.3) coils and I was wondering what you used together with that 35Watt setting.

To prepare for the vaping journey I already ordered some GV, VG, some aromatics and menthol to try out. Now I only need to extract some DMT first!


Kind regards,

The Traveler



Not sure if you saw this one: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...mp;m=1139925#post1139925
 
Loveall
#16 Posted : 2/24/2022 7:46:26 AM

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The Traveler wrote:
Loveall wrote:
I found different information: the reason for sub ohm warning was nicotine salts delivering too much nicotine with sub ohm devices. Users that have ignored this warning and have used nicotine salts with sub ohm devices have reported dizziness attributed to too high of a nicotine dose. DMT needs ~10x the dose vs nicotine, and too much of a high dose was not an issue when testing sub-ohm DMT citrate aerosol (aka vape).

Also, while nicotine citrate salts exist, most nicotine salts are made with benzoic acid which doesn't degrade until 300C, so acid degradation is not a concern for these DMT salt juices. Instead, I believe the high dose is the reason for the sub-ohm warning.

Great work Loveall!

I was wondering what the ohm of the coils is that you use. This since I got myself a Geekvape M100 device together with some high-ohm (1.2) and sub-ohm (0.3) coils and I was wondering what you used together with that 35Watt setting.

To prepare for the vaping journey I already ordered some GV, VG, some aromatics and menthol to try out. Now I only need to extract some DMT first!


Kind regards,

The Traveler


Thanks! πŸ™ The coil I have installed that has received the heavy use was 0.3 Ohms, airflow always 100% open.

Beat of luck with making your own e-juices. Combined with sublingual harmalas it is delightful.

When you say you ordered GV, what do you mean? I assume you have PG to make the PG/VG mix.

I've added menthol in the past (back when I was using the harsher DMT free base) and found that 0.5% of menthol xtal added by weight was plenty for my taste. Cheers.
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The Traveler
#17 Posted : 2/27/2022 6:54:21 PM

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Loveall wrote:
Thanks! πŸ™ The coil I have installed that has received the heavy use was 0.3 Ohms, airflow always 100% open.

Beat of luck with making your own e-juices. Combined with sublingual harmalas it is delightful.

When you say you ordered GV, what do you mean? I assume you have PG to make the PG/VG mix.

I've added menthol in the past (back when I was using the harsher DMT free base) and found that 0.5% of menthol xtal added by weight was plenty for my taste. Cheers.

Thank you for your advice.

And I made a typo in my original post, I meant PG, VG. Pleased


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 
Loveall
#18 Posted : 3/11/2022 3:30:35 AM

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I tested salting PG/DMT FB with fumaric. It worked as far as making an e-juice mix. Ratio that made the pH strip neutral and dissolved in a heat bath after stirring for a few minutes:

1xDMT FB : (1/3)xFumaric Acid : 2xPG : 0.6xVG

Will eventually vape it too. Advantage over citric is that fumaric does not break down until 300C which is above vaping temp. Disadvantage is that I can't find examples of people already using it in their e-juice, so it is more if an unknown safety wise.

Essentially could be smoother than citric because it doesn't break down, but there is a risk cause it is not tested as much as citric. However fumaric acid is an organic acid the body nows how to deal with so I'll slowly test it.

I'll also tear harmala FB and fumaric, see if it easier to dissolve than harmala citrate.

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Ruffles
#19 Posted : 3/20/2022 5:37:03 PM
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Reading this up I decided to raise up enough courage and get a sitter to try this out. Tried one shot and a continuous vaping regimen of fumaric DMT dissolved in 70% VG - 30% PG, about 10 mg in 50 microliters. It dissolved instantly, no need to heat it to dissolve (like freebase requires). It was vaped in a drip atomizer. It smelled like smoked or vaped freebase which is very distinct but it was not as strong. The taste is very smooth and it didn`t taste like bitter fumaric DMT in the mouth, it was actually sweet tasting. It goes into the lung easily, again very smooth, no reflex to cough. The atomizer appeared to have difficulties to make good clouds compared to the e-liquid without the fumaric DMT, the suggestion to have an atomizer with lots of airflow (less restrictive) appears to be a very good point. I don`t think my atomizer was able to aerosolize a lot of it and the taste changes a bit through subsequent puffs. The way the atomizer produces the cloud definitively has lots of space for improvements.

About the effects: it is definitely not the same as smoking-vaporizing freebase DMT on a bong like apparatus or even `vaping` freebase on e-liquids. It is smoother, takes a little bit more time to hit and it lasts a bit longer. After 2 mins in the effects becomes obvious, into OEVs. Depending on the rate of vaping at 5 min in there was light visual hallucinations (contour of things gained a rainbow-like hue, light from a candle projected into the wall got the rainbow hue too, distinct from OEVs). There was a slight gastrointestinal discomfort 15 min after vaping, also felt heavy physical relaxation... body high (or low) perhaps. Priming sublingually with harmalas 20 min before makes it peak higher and last longer. Ended up vaping 30 or more mg over 4 h to ramp up oral DMT-MAOi combo and it was wonderful.
 
Loveall
#20 Posted : 3/21/2022 12:43:31 AM

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Thanks for the input ruffles. I believe this is the first report of aerosolizing DMT fumerate (as far as I can tell). How much e-juice did you make, sounds like ~ 20% salt strength? I use weight instead of volume since it is easier to measure for me. Congrats on being a pioneer.

I think this also means that people don't need to FB after a FASA Tek if they like this alternative.
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