5 mins maximum Art, err... so I heard.

hahaha briliant.

This is just about the only post that made me smile from this thread.

Ta.

I don't know if anyone here on this forum ever experienced OBE or Astral Projcetion. - But

I am looking for a similar effect induced by plants - is there any?

What drug, or plant can cause Astral Projection most easlily?
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To answer some of you -

I don't want to get wasted with cheap money
I don't want to get myself injured or killed.
I don't want to and will not risk taking near lethal dose of any drug
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I just want to experience something new
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So far the only things I have experienced in my life are can be caused naturally without any external help such as plants or other people:

Astral Projection
Lucid Dreaming
Mammalian Diving Reflex (i doubt any of you experienced this, but its amazing)
Orgasm (by asphyxiation )
Vertigo
Hallucinations (by sleep deprivation, not intentionally)
Adrenaline Rush (caused by fear and excitement mainly).

I want more...

Any helpful comments are welcome. (Please forget about the datura thing if you have negative comments about me or my intellect I got your point)

SWIM is pretty disgusted with this thread. He has read countless discussions on datura and is still interested in it. Curiosity is human nature.

Now is Blackpaw's justification for his choice of datura extremely intelligent? No.
Have none of you made any bad judgments when it comes to psychedelic? Not even alcohol? I'm sure we all have.

The problem of this thread is that no one is even giving him a single molecule of empathy.

Blackpaw: Datura is not a good idea to take on it's own. From SWIM's own experience it give no euphoria and give a large large amount of discomfort.

think of it this way:
If you are too delirious to tell something is a hallucination, can you really enjoy it?

SWIM is aware of the appeal of hallucinations, he has taken up to 17 pills of benedryl because it gives similar effects despite 14 giving a terribly annoying trip. It is really a crazy think to think of, but SWIM could not reccomend it.

SWIM's shock in his first time taking mushrooms was that a good 80-90% of the trip for him was non-visual. It is more the feeling that someone has taken your brain and replaced it with some else's that is the trippy part. The visuals are more a side effect in SWIM's oppinion

SWIM's advice would be to either find an entheobotanical store in your area or order online some dried peruvian torch cactus.
Even if you have to save a lot then you will just appreciate it more.

When it arrives take 15-20g and pour 2 cups boiling water over it and let it soak for a couple hours.
gently strain the gooey cactus and add another cup of biling water to soak for 20 minute.

pour off and drink the nasty brew. Just chase it with gum or juice and it's not that bad.

You will feel the healing and power of mescaline. Even if you don't get visuals your brain will be powerfully sent to the world of mescaline.
SWIM has given this brew to many, people who trip lots and newbies alike and they have all loved it.

As you can see from the thread NOBODY says anything near that about datura.

So if you can't afford anything else, please don't die taking datura, I feel your curiousity and you are clearly a strong willed person

*Peace and love*

Astral Projection for myself is a reward from diligently following the path. Any ally will do preferably the one that speaks to you, but as you see from this thread Im not sure if you want datura lol. I agree with the empathy and compassion have also eaten benadryl and robo. just no good so many ancient teachers to explore.

I didn't choose specifically datura as my first if i didn't find it special. I thought this way:
Hallucinations are vivid and real and can be experienced with opened EYES, I doubt that other drugs have the same effect. I don't want to get addicted to some drug or get wasted or get high or trip. I just want to experience something big not cartoonish images like when you close your eyes and you press your fingers on the eyelids.
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If someone here had Astral Projection - not lucid dreaming - but astral projection they will know what I am talking about as is there a difference from normal dream to lucid to astral projection, there are differences in the hallucinations caused by drugs - plants.



Is it a powerful experience or I will just like/love it?

Money is not the problem at all. I would pay 1000$ for something that I will be satisfied with.

q21q21 I think you are the only one that didn't gave me that "..." kind of response, as all of previous users did.

By the way do you know of any psychedelic plants that are native to the European continent?

oh man, SWIM has about a pound of dried torch left and has worked with it a lot.

20g of torch prepared as above was incredibly powerful despite it's lack of visuals at that dose SWIM's mind was way out for a good 3-5 hours and up for at least 9-10

So powerful in fact that he would be scared to try 30. He has 26g in a brew and he knows he will have to plan it well or else he could definitely get stuck having to do something like an errand and be WAY too messed up to do it

SWIM's also been working with pharmahuasca and it is completely different than mescaline and even mushrooms which it is highly related to. SWIM had an extremely intense trip for about 2 hours where everything was shifting and moving and had an edgy geometric pattern moving over it. crazy junk.

His trips on those two would be rated a 9 and 8 out of 10 respectively. His low dose of datura was a 1. Unpleasant galore. But like he said he will be working with it and testing, but only in low doses like max 40. Not the 150, 200, 400 seeds some crazy erowid idiots try.

ok.... my last post here. if you've done any research at you'll see most psychedlics are NOT addictive.

you will get open eye visuals with the right dosage of most tryptamines. your from europe? mushrooms must be a likely candidate for you then. they grow freely. they are not addictive. you will experience something new. your dosage will affect how powerful your experience is.

whether or not the experience gets you 'high' or 'trip' or you want to have a 'powerful experience' depends not really on the substance itself - but your own intent.

no-one here means to be harsh. if we come across that way it's because we care about the people that post here (you were talking about something that could potentially harm yourself) and this forumm.

SWIM was about to use datura in deliriant doses a long time ago, but ended up not doing it. He had a lot of Datura stramonium leaves he bought from a local herb shop. He was about 20 years old at the time. He read up on it and was fascinated by the idea of being able to have full blown hallucinations. He had already experienced LSD and mushrooms by that time and knew what the standard hallucinogens could do. They can produce visions, but not full blown hallucinations.

SWIM started with low doses carefully moving up from 1/8 tsp of dry powder leaf, then 1/4, then a little more over several days. He never got to a hallucinogenic dose, but did get to the dry mouth stage. After a few days of this he stopped. The following day he experienced withdrawal symptoms including nervousness, sweating, and slight nausea. It lasted the whole day.

People don’t often tell you that tropane alkaloids can cause withdrawal effects. A certain percentage of people, like SWIM, get them if it’s used a few days in a row.

The withdrawal effects scared SWIM a little bit. After that he stopped using the Datura and left the jar of Datura powder alone for a long time. One day, his younger brother stole some of the Datura from the jar, and took way too much of it orally. I don’t know how much his brother took. His brother doesn’t remember. He was like a raving lunatic once the affects kicked in. He was talking about all kinds of things that made no sense at all. At one point he picked up a spear he made with a stick and a knife and tried to kill a few family members in the house. Fortunately, we was so delirious that his attempts were completely ineffective. He had to be watched 24 hours for several days in a row. He was babbling, thinking the TV was talking to him, etc. He was very scary to be around when he got angry at the TV.

Datura basically makes you completely insane. SWIM’s younger brother did not fully recover from the experience. He now has recurring hallucinations, hears voices, etc. It permanently messed him up.

Anyway, that’s the only time I’ve ever talked about that on-line. Datura is a fantastic medicine when used in small doses, but in doses that can make you delirious it is extremely scary. It’s not just scary to the person experiencing the delirium, but also scary for the people around that person. SWIM’s brother attempted to KILL several family members while tripping on Datura. His brother is not a violent person and would never do something like that. He was delirious and thought the people around him were evil demons that needed to be destroyed. If he wasn’t so fucked up, he may have succeeded in murdering several family members.

I don’t know what to say. SWIM was interested in it, and was scared away by it’s psychical addiction, and was fortunate enough to never experience delirium from it. But it’s SWIM’s fault that his brother is permanently damaged by it because had SWIM never bought the Datura, his younger brother would never have stole it to get high and would not be mentally ill.

It’s sad. I don’t like talking about it. He is permanently damaged. He takes medication now to help stay “normal”. All because he wanted to trip on Datura just like SWIM did.

SWIM uses about 3 Datura seeds as a nausea prevention medicine, or to potentiate the effects of other psychoactivea. It’s great for that. But it’s really not something to use for tripping. It can cause permanent brain damage. This is a known fact.

If you’re going to mess around with it in delirium doses, despite all the warnings from us, at least be smart. Start with low doses like SWIM did. Skip a day, then try again. Move up from a low dose to an active dose by increasing the doses by small increments each time. Don’t take it several days in a row or you risk very unpleasant withdrawal effects, and toxic build up in your body.

The deliriant effects of things scopolamine and hyoscyamine (the main actives of Datura) occur at the near overdose level of the drug. These drugs are primarily anti-nausea medicine like Dramamine. Dramamine can produce a very similar delirium if you take an overdose of it. In either case, the dose needed is very close to the dose that causes coma and death.

A dose of 0.1 mg-1 mg of scopolamine is generally considered safe. Anything above 1.5 mg is technically an overdose with the possibility of death or coma occurring. You need more than 1.5 mg to experience delirium from scopolamine. Death has occurred with 10 mg. Think about that a little bit. You need more than 1.5 mg, and 10 mg has been fatal.

I think the harm it can do to other people who aren’t using it is probably the worst thing about Datura delirium. SWIM’s brother tried to actually kill his brothers and sisters while tripping on Datura. That’s the scariest thing about it. It makes you a raving lunatic and you can very easily harm the people you love while tripping on it.

having read through this again I have to agree with q21q21.

it troubles me a little the way some users react in these situations.

it seems that anytime a touchy or controversial subject arises we have the " close this thread " police up in arms. why do people insist on doing the travelars job for him? incase you have not noticed he's actually pretty good at it.

we speak of whats right and wrong to discuss here and stuff and what is dangerous to the well being of the forum.
the irony here is some would rather discussions like this are not tolerated yet they are happy to discuss illegal chemical extractions. both could be perceived as being harmful to this forum so why dont we ban all talk on that also. in for a penny and all that. ( personally im happy to dscuss both )

datura threads such as this are few and far between on the dmt nexus.

why cant we, when one comes along politely offer our collective advice and refrain from insulting people.

I remember a day when this forum was free from all that crap better suited to places like the shroomery.

after reading this anybody who is seeking our advice will think twice about posting here, so what would we rather happen? that the young and uneducated person decides to go fuck it and try it anyway. as long as it is not done through the nexus right??

or like in this guys case open a dialogue with far more experienced people and discuss why or why not, what are the pros and cons. is this not a positive and mature approach, is this forum not serving a better purpose in dealing with these situations in this way?

in the event of someone doing datura and ending up in the hospital any paper trail leading back here would only show how we aggresively and passionately adviced against such mis adventures.

I value this community just as much as any of you guys and understand we need to preserve our integrity and security but paradoxical to the psychedelic quest of dissolving boundries is the notion to pick and chose, lock up or ban discussions on certain nervy topics which dont fit in with our ideal on how this forum should be run.

we all here have a collective responsibillity to look out for ourselves and one another, to educate not insult, to address not depress, to build bridges not destroy them.

when people come here looking for advice, we should do that without prejudice or pre- conceived ideals about that persons life, intentions or mental state.

where is the love people?

finest regards
ps
blackpaw It was an excellant and mature descision to post what you did.
you got your answer in many differant forms.
i hope that kind of reaction does not make you hesitate in the future from asking questions about anything you need.
many of us here will help you without judgeing or showing you dis-respect.

take care

According to this it seems that you have to overdose to experience the hallucinations caused by delirum. It seems like if you do experience it you, then you have to be lucky to not get serious injury to the brain or the body, or even die.

In safe doses delirium is not possible therefore no hallucinations, only withdrawal effects. And you can't really know the amount of active contents in the seeds to know how many is safe.

From what I understood so far is that the more powerful the effects are - the more riskier the after effects.
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Ambi-Lysergance - thank you for your post, It helps me better understand the community here. I hoped at first that I would get replies such as from ron and q21, but some were too concerned that I would do something stupid because of inexperience.

Anyway thanks for the advices and the helpful information.

And yes I am from Europe (Balkan Peninsula).

these conclusions are correct blackpaw.

im glad you have received some great advice which led you to understand better what you were dealing with.

it proves that your post was not nonsense and did indeed have a place here contrary to what others may think, you have gained valuable information and allowed you to appreciate the gravity of such an experience.

all is well that ends well.

your honesty and frankness is commendable.

I wish you well in your life and the exciting times ahead in your quest for knowledge and experience. I look forward to hearing more from you and how you are getting along.

navigating these mysterious waters of mind hallucinogens can be rewarding but also risky business so any doubts please just ask again.

we are always here to help

I never meant to be harsh.

When i was sixteen i experimented with datura. Many times i took a relatively small amount of it, that didn't cause a delirium but would have caused visual distortions on it's own, in combination with LSD.

I also took a dose that caused a delirium once.

I can say that i have much experience with this herb. And therefore i know like no other how dangerous it is. This is not just something i would disrecomend, like i would do with DXM, PCP or experiments with heroin.

This is something that is far more dangerous than any of those substances.

If i would just kindly say 'it's not nice' someone who's intrigued by hallucinations might still give it a try.

So i'm a bit more straightforward in this issue.

When i experienced a delirium, of wich i remember very little, at a certain moment my sitter had to stop me when i had found a knife somewhere and i started talking about 'cutting things' and 'slicing things through'.

I also must say that the hallucinations are not vivid at all compared to those of DMT or mescaline.
Your senses are just so numb that everything becomes a haze. You cannot see the difference between hallucinations and reality because you are completely debilitated and everything looks hazy and unreal.

I was stupid and reckless and i'm very, very glad that i'm alive and well.

When i look back at it, it scares me how reckless and stupid i was.
I could just as easily have woken up in a police cell with blood on my hands and not remembering anything i'd done or on the side of the road with one of my limbs missing.
And that's no exaggeration because that's realy how risky it is.

So if i'm being just as harsh as i would be if i would meet my 16 year old self now.

And i would say "try anything, realy anything you can think of, but NOT this stuff".

Gosh. I guess we've all learned some valuable lessons today about life, love and tolerance - kind of like that episode of Different Strokes where Arnold and Willis bring home a homeless man.

Or not...

I'm not for limiting what can or can't be discussed inside this forum. By the same token, when someone shows up with a plan to do something which is clearly going to end badly, and then doesn't care to listen to empirical evidence supporting just why this is so, I'm not going to strain a whole lot to be polite. As for q21q21, he was casually throwing advice around which could contribute to GETTING SOMEONE KILLED. Again, politeness isn't really my priority - and if I've managed to offend anyone with my rudeness... now, how can I say this delicately enough to not make anyone cry? TOO BAD.

I'm glad the advice of more nurturing members seems to have registered with you, Blackpaw. I sincerely hope you will take it to heart and not move ahead with your plans. In the end however, you'll likely do whatever you need to do - and if you end up slicing your dick off as a result, well that would be unfortunate. I won't have been a party to it, however - and as a member of an online community that I'd like to remain up and running, I'd prefer that others here weren't either. Because it will have definite repercussions - not only to you and your loved ones, but to the rest of us as well - and like it or not, by contributing here, we all share in the burden of responsibility.

I read a news report once of a young man who used garden shears to cut off his tongue and penis while high on Datura. He apparently thought plants were growing out of his body and wanted to remove them with the shears. When he was found, there was blood everywhere. He was rushed to the hospital. Unfortunately neither body part could be reattached. When he recovered, he could not talk properly or engage in sex ever again, and now suffers from mental problems.

The main problem with the Datura delirium other than its toxicity is that it doesn't just make you hallucinate, it greatly impairs your judgment and memory, more so than any other drug that I know of.

Now as for mental safety, Datura stramonium SEEDS are your best bet. Scopolamine is the main alkaloid in Datura and similar plants that impairs mental functions. Datura stramonium seeds contain mainly hyoscyamine. Hyoscyamine is far safer mentally. But unfortunately, the seeds also contain some scopolamine. The hallucinations produced by hyoscyamine occur with much less mental impairment. It is definitely preferred in that respect. But even then, you cannot tell the difference between what’s real and what’s not.

If using Datura in near overdose levels to achieve hallucinations, you absolutely must have a baby sitter to watch you. It’s preferable to have 2 or 3 baby sitters. They need to be strong enough to subdue you if you get violent or attempt something dangerous while delirious. They also need to know the life threatening overdose signs, and be ready to call an ambulance for at least 24 hours after you take the Datura. They need to stay up all night watching you for at least 24 hours, 36 hours in some cases.

Datura is best used in micro doses as an admixture. Using it alone to achieve hallucinations is way too dangerous.

I think those interested in using Datura for hallucinations despite others warning against it should look into safer ways of using Datura. Anything that produces hallucinations via 5-HT sites in the brain will amplify the hallucinogenic effects of Datura. Marijuana can greatly potentiate the effects of Datura, so can LSD, mescaline, psilocybin, and many others. By mixing small doses of Datura with things like LSD or mescaline, you can actually avoid a lot of the negative mental effects of Datura and don’t need to use dangerous doses to experience hallucinations similar to full blown Datura hallucinations. But even this is risky, because of the nature of the realism of the hallucinations. Even with a fully functionally intellect, when experiencing full blown hallucinations, one cannot be sure if what they see is really there or not and could get into serious troubled by doing things like combing your hair with a sharp knife seeing the knife as a comb, or walking into oncoming traffic thinking you’re at the beach.

Datura huh?
well i'm not going to get into it cause i'm sure others have already told you lol.
but for the record I have done datura several times, once was an extremely large dose, the large dose messed me up for life... I checked myself into the hospital 1 month after digestion because I was fainting on occasion from really bad headachs which was caused from me straining my eyes, I had lost depth perception almost completly.
smoking the leafs/flowers aint that bad (also nothing great about it), it has aphrodisiac properties and can be pleasant for some people when smoked with cannabis (this is what some natives did, said it represents male and female qualities ect...), note no hullicinations accur with this, I got over this quickly however cause I noticed that I got a really nasty vibe from my plants(while datura was in me), truly datura has an evil spirit imo and even other plants(which have much more unconditional love then we humans do) as well dont like I believe.

heres a link regarding datura that I have bookmarked :http://b-and-t-world-seeds.com/Datura.htm (dont get to excited)
scary thing is that I have found that pablo amaringo(who only paints what ayahuasca shows him) has painting that resonate with some of the things said in there.

beware datura is not friendly to us thes days she will atack your will and eat it away no doubt,
datura aint no experience that your going to have and be able to look back on,
your eyes will never forget what datura opens.......

Blackpaw:

I don't know how old you are, and maybe it doesn't matter, but when SWIM started out trying to find out about different states of consciousness 25 years ago he did some really stupid things and the internet was dial-up. Old guy, what can I say...

I'd say you're a smart fellow, because you looked for advice before doing something with potentially disastrous consequences - and though the tone is often uncompromising in the replies you've had, I hope you can see that it's because NOBODY here wants to see a fellow traveller come undone. These people care, so don't take it the wrong way. They've got your back.

I respect that you don't drink coffee, smoke etc ... you don't want to fuck yourself up, and that's the kind of instinct you need if you want to explore other states of consciousness. SWIM was offered crack, smack and jack, but always knew that each compound was very, very different, and tried to make the time to understand what my motivation was. I wanted insight; but many of these compounds offer only death and slavery. I lost a lot of friends. I wouldn't want to lose another.

I hope you can take the advice offered here, no matter the tone, without being offended.

Surprised you can't get your hands on cannabis. It's the least worst way in, according to my friend SWIM.

A friend of mine almost died years ago from datura. Not sure which one but I think it was found in the southwest US. This is something you should stay far away from especially if you have no experience with drugs that may cause you to freek out. Start with psilocybin and if you are feeling brave move onto salvia. Stay away from datura.

About 6 years ago, SWIM also experimented with some Datura he found near his town... Luckily, he searched the web for info before doing it and found all sorts of reports and warnings about it, so he only tried a tea made from half a dried seed pod, which he drank. The experience was very uncomfortable. He didn't get any hallucinations because he did too little, but his throat/mouth and nose got extremly dry, so dry that as he was swallowing it burned, and he felt extremly hot (he probably developed temperature), also he was feeling very sleepy/tired...These symptoms had lasted for about 6 hours, and then slowly subsided, except his nose remained clogged and crusty for the following days because of over-drying. SWIM was lucky to get away with it so easily, because he was very cautious, but he had the opportunity a few months later to see somebody else during the delirious stage, after drinking a tea made from 2 fresh Datura seed pods (cut in half and boiled along with all the seeds), and this has contributed to SWIM deciding to not repeat the experience. His friend was completely incoherent, talking things that nobody could make sense of (he seemed to conversate with people who were not there), seemed to think he was somewhere at the country's borders and that he has to escape some policemen chasing him, then also by his reactions he seemd to be thinking that the earth is cracking open around him and he began jumping not to fall into "pits of fire" and cracks that are opening in the ground, he was ocasionaly 'smoking' cigarettes that were not there (oddly enough, this exact hallucination seems to be reported by very many users) , and if it wasn't for his friends, he would have probably had an accident because he at one point stopped in the middle of a road where cars were passing by, apparently to "analyze" a small (non-existent) object on the road. Needless to say, after he recovered from the delirious state he couln't remeber ANy of the things he did/experienced and his friends had to tell him the things that could be seen by others.

I think this should give people a hint on how crazy this substance is. If you really really want to try it, against all the people's recommendations, do the tiniest dose possible. Hope it helps.