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Journal: 50 Sublingual HPBCD DMT Ayahuasca journeys over a years time Options
 
downwardsfromzero
#221 Posted : 2/18/2022 12:15:56 AM

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It depends on the batch o rue seeds. Some very young rue seeds have, it is claimed by a Nexian (dithyramb), even an appreciable content of THH. Natural materials vary according to a wide variety of conditions.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 

STS is a community for people interested in growing, preserving and researching botanical species, particularly those with remarkable therapeutic and/or psychoactive properties.
 
igorcarajo
#222 Posted : 2/18/2022 2:27:38 PM
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ava69 wrote:
The particular rue seeds I get from India have extremely large amounts of harmaline compared to the harmine, and that's fine by me, as I purposely order only these only, as I prefer lots of harmaline...that way I can convert it all to tetrahydroharmine. Rue seeds from the middle east I've noticed contain more harmine than the Indian seeds. Depends where you get your seeds from, and in what season they were harvested, these two factors both affect the percentage of harmine to harmaline.

Thank you for the response. This is really interesting. I went to an Indian grocery store and asked for “harmala” and “syrian rue” and they didn’t know what that was. Maybe in India they know it by a different name? If you don’t mind telling, these rue seeds that you get from India, what is the brand, or what does it say on the packaging?

Edit: could it be that they call it “esphand” in India?
 
downwardsfromzero
#223 Posted : 2/18/2022 6:06:56 PM

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Hey there ava Smile

Would you care to address the question of what might be the undesirable by-product in a zinc reduction of a harmine/harmaline mixture? This is something you were quoted as having mentioned, and I've given it my consideration in that thread.

And yeah, I've been decorating the walls of my spare kitchen with some nice yellow spots as I work my way through a 1kg rue extraction - although a 12mL (~½oz) shot of the first two combined pulls (totalling 1.8L recovered) was really rather special, being the equivalent of not more than 6.66g of rue, certainly significantly less as liquid recovery was far from complete - I just didn't fancy pressing the seeds. So, this was from two separate 30 minute PC cooks, the first one with 15g ascorbic acid and the second with 10g. I'll be looking at whether PC'ing with ascorbic acid forms any extra THH.

Besides visual tracers, There was also an omnipresent audio 'twang' that gave a metallic edge to sounds such as turning the page of a book. It was clearly a harmaline-heavy experience but I get the feeling that there was something more to it as harmaline+harmine for me tends to have a dominant earthy yellow/green colour scheme whereas this time the full spectrum of colours was making its presence felt, along with more than a hint of crystalline clarity.

There was a clear sense of plant teacher intelligence, highlighting habitual modes of thought and action in a questioning way. Formulating my own questions about things brought instantaneous intuitive replies that were helpful from a perspective of self-development and understanding the diversity of possible different viewpoints. Thinking about the expansion of the universe and black holes was also insightful - but more on that in the appropriate thread.

With the eyes closed, internal vision developed along the lines of an initial idea into realistic scenes of quite surprising intricacy. It was shocking then amusing when, at one point, while contemplating the tidal effects of the sun and the moon, the sun suddenly turned off when I was disturbed by the bang of a closing door.

Physically, there was a kind of proprioceptive and tactile 'shuttering' that was also reflected in what could have become difficulties with balance and fine motor control, along with a sense of muscular twitching which was again more of a phantom sensation than any noticeable movement.

With its overall sense of strong yet grounded euphoria, this experience left me feeling strengthened and re-motivated. A few more like this and I'll be ready to add a little 'light' to the mix again... and it would be good to get hold of some HPBCD for that.

igorcarajo wrote:
could it be that they call it “esphand” in India?
Harmel? There might be other local names though.
Quote:
Etymology

African rue is often used in North American English.[1][8][9][10][11]

Harmel is used in India,[1] Algeria,[12] and Morocco.

It is known in as اسپند in Persian, which is transliterated as espand,[6] or ispand[13] but may also be pronounced or transliterated as sepand, sipand, sifand, esfand, isfand, aspand, or esphand depending on source or dialect.[14][15] The Persian word اسپند is also the name of the last month of the year, approximately March, in the traditional Persian calendar.[16][17] It is derived from Middle Persian spand, which is thought, along with the English word spinach, to be ultimately derived from Proto-Iranian *spanta-, 'holy' (compare Avestan 𐬯𐬞𐬆𐬧𐬙𐬀, spəṇta, 'holy', and Middle Persian spenāg, 'holy'), itself thought to be ultimately derived from Proto-Indo-European *ḱwen-.[18]

It is known as spilani in Pashto.[19] In Urdu it is known as harmal, ispand, or isband.[2] In Turkish it is known as uzerlik or sedefotu.[20] In Chinese it is 驼驼蒿, tuó tuó hāo,[21] or 骆驼蓬, luo tuó peng.[22]

In Spain it is known as hármala,[23] alharma or gamarza,[1] amongst dozens of other local names.[23][24] In French it is known as harmal.[25]




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
L-dreamer
#224 Posted : 2/19/2022 11:02:48 PM

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Had another try today.
Ava was not kidding with the images of beautiful women. Today I had a vision of a naked blonde with the body of a literal Goddess opening my mind's eye like you would a zipper at the beggining. The perfection of the female form in full display with a glistening astral skin. And it wasn't any libido increase, just a sense of witnessing beauty.
This effect is so peculiar to me, ava mentioned about certain adrenergic receptors that THH touches like mescaline does, but I could not find a source on how these receptors are actually involved in "Aesthetic perception"
 
igorcarajo
#225 Posted : 3/6/2022 4:45:24 PM
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ava69:

I don’t understand that tolerance chart you posted. On the y-axis it says “percentage”. Percentage of what? Please provide an example. Is the chart saying that if you dose every 14 days, you only need to dose 100% of the original dose, but if you were to dose only one day after, you would need a dose that’s 290% higher in order to get the same effect? If that’s what it means, why did you say at the beginning of your post that THH has reverse tolerance? Thanks.
 
igorcarajo
#226 Posted : 3/8/2022 6:47:23 PM
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Question: what effects would you feel if you took 100 mg of THH by itself? What about 200 mg?
 
L-dreamer
#227 Posted : 3/22/2022 5:25:40 PM

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It's funny that ava reports on using HPBCD DMT for ayahuasca in his last reply
Tried some days ago the following:
300 mg of THH orally
100 mg of harmine/harmaline after 30 minutes orally
75mg of DMT with HPBCD after 30 minutes orally (not sublingual)
I was curious how would an oral dose compare with a sublingual dose of DMT that has proven effects
Well the experience was much weaker than the sublingual one visual wise. Spent 3 hours in a state similar to fever dreams, the theme was me worrying about the Ukraine-Russia war. Had a vision at some point of a little girl crossing the Ukrainian border in a rainy night but that is literally all I got from the whole deal.
Unfortunately I vomited about two hours in, the urge came suddenly and had to be obeyed, did not enjoy the stomach acid coating my entire mouth.
Should I have used more harmalas? probably but then I get more nausea and diziness this way
Should have used more DMT? certainly it seems so, but you need less for a strong sublingual experience
did using HPBCD help? I helped with the faster onset I believe, but I am not that enthusiastic to repeat an aya experience soon
 
downwardsfromzero
#228 Posted : 3/25/2022 10:09:21 PM

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Hi ava, thanks for sharing the details of how you had to switch to oral administration for HPBCD complexed DMT. What I think is more likely than your spontaneous evolution of a salivary enzyme is simply that your sublingual mucosa gets thickened by the irritation from this ROA and that is sufficient to prevent DMT absorption. The time span you give for recovery of effects is consistent with this kind of skin renewal process.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
shroombee
#229 Posted : 3/26/2022 7:23:05 PM

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ava69 wrote:
From Thirdwave.co:
Quote:
Does ayahuasca produce tolerance?
Ayahuasca tolerance is very mild and you can take another dose within a day without significantly reduced effects. It also does not produce tolerance to other psychedelics.

Is this true that Ayahuasca (DMT) does not produce tolerance to other psychedelics? I was under the impression that other psychedelics don't cause tolerance to DMT, but DMT would induce a tolerance to other psychedelics.

Ava, what is the benefit of oral HPBCD DMT over oral DMT without the HPBCD? Sorry if you've already covered this.
 
L-dreamer
#230 Posted : 4/17/2022 1:19:38 AM

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I do hate to be the party pooper
I gave another try to the one-shot oral dmt coupled with HPBCD, in the equivalent dosages to my weight like ava did. I'm 70 kgs, so 95 mg of dmt, 120 mg of harmala, and 300 mg of THH. One thing, I did not separate the harmaline from harmine because I am too lazy to do it, and I don't think it would make that much of a difference.

I made the shot of pharmahuasca but I needed one hour to make myself to drink it. My stomach was belching and nausea senses were on high alert, the prospect of drinking it was so unpleasant. I downed the glass eventually, it tasted as vile as I expected, and even now I feel bad thinking about it. For me the stuff tastes BAD, really really bad. But in 10 or so minutes the vile taste went away, and this time I did not purge.
Regarding the actual experience, it was sickening, I regretted constantly going though it. The experience dragged on for 8 hours, and I felt even at the end that there were leftovers of the liquid getting absorbed along the GI tract. At the end there were slight tinges of paranoia were I had fever dreams of cops and authorities checking me out or wanting to take my blood to find DMT in it, or seeing me in a cognitive impaired state. Visual weak trip, but I think that adding more DMT would have added to the paranoia, anxiety and extreme body dysphoria, and accentuated the childish coloured evil theme of the trip. I am glad I have not added more.
Post-trip I do feel really calm and clear-headed so I can't complain
Regarding the HPBCD, I don't think it changed much for me in this experience

Haven't tried sublingual DMT in 4-5 weeks, because at one point when I tried I also felt a kind of tolerance to the visual effects, which I know sounds stupid but we need tens of tries to reach a final conclusion. I will check back in a few days and report with another try. I'm not trying oral DMT for a long time, you can't even pay me to do thatat this point.
 
L-dreamer
#231 Posted : 4/18/2022 7:30:47 PM

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Thanks for pointing out the study in that article, it really is intriguing. The Santo Daime drink also has incredibly high THHa,d very very low harmaline. How do they end up with that ratio? I doubt they mess with changing the ph and deliberate chemistry, is it just an effect of prolonged boiling? My concotion had a value of 1 mg of harmaline per ml, while for the SD drinks it's 50 times lower. The THH harmaline ratio is 150:1 on average, for me it was 5:1.
So I guess I seriously have to reconsider my pharmahuasca preparation
 
downwardsfromzero
#232 Posted : 4/20/2022 11:52:27 PM

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ava69 wrote:
I once went on a field trip with a friend, and took 150mg harmine + 30mg harmaline just to experience it, and my friend had to pull over twice as I was so dizzy and had to puke on the side of the road from the strong nausea. The nausea lasted many hours, and made for a rough afternoon. Harmaline has a long half-life of around 3 hours.
Just to say, this nausea factor doesn't apply universally. Personally, having taken the time to get myself accustomed to harmala effects by stepwise increasing the dose of the course of weeks and now months has paid off. Now, I may possibly have a higher nausea threshold than some but I can now take a stiff dose of harmaline-rich mixed rue alkaloids and get visual trails plus auditory flangeing - which for me is moderately entertaining - with barely the faintest hint of nausea.

Quote:
Dr. Shulgin actually commented on this in an old issue of "The Entheogen Review" implying that vitamin C is an effective hydrogen doner, and if these Vegetals are using vitamin C in the cooking, this will most assuredly over a day's time of boiling reduce any leftover harmaline to THH. Professor8 here at this forum was known for using this method of converting harmaline to THH: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...sts&t=31699&p=2

Thanks for reminding me of that thread - I've gone into a recent rue extraction that used multiple PC cooks with ascorbic acid over there. Suffice to say, the crude alkaloid mixture thus obtained is noticeably different in effects from plain rue tea.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
downwardsfromzero
#233 Posted : 4/22/2022 8:24:08 PM

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I put a bit more musing about my views on the harmaline experience in this post, if you're interested.

My grandmother was a bit of a painter too ❤️




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
L-dreamer
#234 Posted : 4/22/2022 10:44:08 PM

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Sublingual DMT attempt

Dosage: 90 mg of DMT+ 310 mg of THH + no harmine or harmaline whatsoever

Highlights:
- lack of harmaline or harmine completely stopped the appearance of significant visions. Faces and geometries wanted to burst out when I closed my eyes but they could not, no colour. The lack of harmalas besides THH seems to stop the experience from unfolding. As such I won't make these attempts without other harmalas from now on
- there wasn't a problem with the DMT absorbtion IMO. I had the cotton with the DMT juice under my tongue for 10 minutes, felt significant stinging on the mouth floor. 24 hours in and the mouth floor is still sore

I hope I can receive in a week or two pure harmine. I want have to try harmine only+THH+DMT experiences (sublingual and oral) to compare them with the ones that had harmaline also
 
starway7
#235 Posted : 4/23/2022 10:36:32 PM

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L-dreamer wrote:
Sublingual DMT attempt

Dosage: 90 mg of DMT+ 310 mg of THH + no harmine or harmaline whatsoever

Highlights:
- lack of harmaline or harmine completely stopped the appearance of significant visions. Faces and geometries wanted to burst out when I closed my eyes but they could not, no colour. The lack of harmalas besides THH seems to stop the experience from unfolding. As such I won't make these attempts without other harmalas from now on
- there wasn't a problem with the DMT absorbtion IMO. I had the cotton with the DMT juice under my tongue for 10 minutes, felt significant stinging on the mouth floor. 24 hours in and the mouth floor is still sore

I hope I can receive in a week or two pure harmine. I want have to try harmine only+THH+DMT experiences (sublingual and oral) to compare them with the ones that had harmaline also



what brand of THH did you use...? was it ...[lift mode THH ?...
 
L-dreamer
#236 Posted : 4/24/2022 1:01:37 AM

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starway7 wrote:

what brand of THH did you use...? was it ...[lift mode THH ?...


no, european vendor
 
starway7
#237 Posted : 4/24/2022 3:01:12 AM

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L-dreamer wrote:
starway7 wrote:

what brand of THH did you use...? was it ...[lift mode THH ?...


no, european vendor



ive found that a ..[reversable MAOI] like rue.. increased my visuals with spice ..slowed the trip down enough to navagate and recall better..

Maybe your THH isnt too good?,,,

not a super chemist... And dont want to poison myself in an attempt to make THH..that ive been hearing about so much....

If you want real natural THH..I suggest caapi vine..or caapi leaf..THH is known to be in vine and leaf...



So the question is.... where can you get some genuine THH that isnt bunk?

I think it takes using a reversable MAOI with the spice...to make the spice work at its best and longer duration..

you could just have some rue tea..before vaping [spc] and that is a good 45 minutes or longer simmilar to an .Ayahuasca, experiance only shorter trip...

just my two cents ..
 
L-dreamer
#238 Posted : 4/24/2022 7:52:26 AM

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starway7 wrote:

ive found that a ..[reversable MAOI] like rue.. increased my visuals with spice ..slowed the trip down enough to navagate and recall better..

Maybe your THH isnt too good?,,,

no need to worry, the THH I have is 100% legit. It's just that sublingual DMT requires harmine or harmaline (sublingual or oral) to activate from my testing. At this point I am trying to see how exactly it works and what kind of harmalas are needed. Sublingual DMT isn't like vaped DMT where you don't need harmine or harmaline IMO.
The reasons I know my THH is legit are:
- had actual visions on it+DMT+ sublingual harmalas (even 35 mg can work). Visions of incredibly beautiful women (think Greek goddesses archetypes) are for me one of the hallmarks of THH
- enhances music
- leads to slight dizziness at that dosage but no actual nausea
- powerful mood enhancement for days after I have taken it: less anxiety, and less neuroticism
 
physics envy
#239 Posted : 4/25/2022 5:27:06 AM

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Follow up from a previous oral experience...

A few months ago I used 60mg of DMT complexed with 2hpbcd orally along with 275mg LIFTMODE "THH", 150mg harmine, and 125mg Vitamin C.

I've been wanting to try the same experiment but without the complexation to see if the experience was similar or not.

I finally had a chance to try to experiment this weekend, though it wasn't as similar to the original as I was hoping. I didn't realize I'd have the chance until late in the evening, and I only had 1.5 hours after a somewhat heavy meal (previously I had closer to 3 hours after dinner).

Also, I usually eat a piece of bread about 10 minutes after drinking the dmt to initiate digestion. This time, I only ate a few crackers about 5 minutes after drinking.

My results were that the trip didn't kick in until nearly 2 hours after drinking (it was 35 minutes last time). Also, the visions were much harder to see - though they were there.

I would say this experience was about 1/2-3/4 as strong as the last one when I had complexed the dmt.

Also, I could not sleep for several hours after it wore off this time.

So it turned out to not be a very good experiment for comparison. My takeaway, though, is that the HPBCD probably does increase the efficiency of the dmt so the less can be used with this ROA, but for me the HPBCD probably increases the strength by 1.5-2x at most over non-complexed dmt. But unless I just decide I don't want to risk using HPBCD in the future, I'll likely use it every time as I only do this trip a few times a year and I have a bottle full of HPBCD to use up.
Salvia quid enthusiast
 
physics envy
#240 Posted : 4/28/2022 3:21:18 AM

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Hi Ava,

At what point in this thread did you first mention complexing the harmine? I must have overlooked that until this last post. You've probably covered this, but did you notice a difference?
Salvia quid enthusiast
 
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