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Journal: 50 Sublingual HPBCD DMT Ayahuasca journeys over a years time Options
 
physics envy
#201 Posted : 1/15/2022 10:13:37 PM

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I tried the sublingual 2HPBCD / DMT combination last night (60mg n,n + 480mg 2HPBCD), along with 175mg oral Liftmode brand 'THH' and 25mg sublingual harmine. (I'm 150lbs, so I dropped the harmine dosage from Ava's recommended 35mg.)

I was very sensitive to the burn - it was almost intolerable and I will not be retrying this ROA. And it is still annoying the next day under my tongue.

I did it twice last night as the first time it did not work as I probably did not complex the mixture properly and also did not get the mixture off the spoon very well. So after an hour, I mixed a second batch, using the same amounts of 2HPBCD, dmt, and harmine. (I did not mix the harmine in, just placed it under my tongue for a minute before inserting the complexed mixture.)

The second batch of dmt DID work Very happy After about 10 minutes it started to come on, and it quickly became very strong with a few-minute rush, similar to a decent vaped dose.

However, it wore off about 10-15 minutes after it started.

I did not notice anything extra from the alleged THH. And I did not notice any lengthening of the experience from either the harmine nor the THH.

Before giving up on this liftmode THH, I'll try it again and up the dose to closer to 300mg in hopes that there is at least *some* THH in there. And I will use the oral method of complexing the dmt then melting it into hot water to drink along with the THH and maybe ~170mg harmine. Alternatively, I may try complexing the harmine and using it sublingually, upping the dose to 35mg.

Salvia quid enthusiast
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
starway7
#202 Posted : 1/16/2022 4:23:13 PM

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physics envy wrote:
I tried the sublingual 2HPBCD / DMT combination last night (60mg n,n + 480mg 2HPBCD), along with 175mg oral Liftmode brand 'THH' and 25mg sublingual harmine. (I'm 150lbs, so I dropped the harmine dosage from Ava's recommended 35mg.)

I was very sensitive to the burn - it was almost intolerable and I will not be retrying this ROA. And it is still annoying the next day under my tongue.

I did it twice last night as the first time it did not work as I probably did not complex the mixture properly and also did not get the mixture off the spoon very well. So after an hour, I mixed a second batch, using the same amounts of 2HPBCD, dmt, and harmine. (I did not mix the harmine in, just placed it under my tongue for a minute before inserting the complexed mixture.)

The second batch of dmt DID work Very happy After about 10 minutes it started to come on, and it quickly became very strong with a few-minute rush, similar to a decent vaped dose.

However, it wore off about 10-15 minutes after it started.

I did not notice anything extra from the alleged THH. And I did not notice any lengthening of the experience from either the harmine nor the THH.

Before giving up on this liftmode THH, I'll try it again and up the dose to closer to 300mg in hopes that there is at least *some* THH in there. And I will use the oral method of complexing the dmt then melting it into hot water to drink along with the THH and maybe ~170mg harmine. Alternatively, I may try complexing the harmine and using it sublingually, upping the dose to 35mg.


If you cant get any good THH you might try brewing a cup of syrian rue tea using no more than 3 grams of rue seed...1 or 2 grams of seed may work fine..dont go over three grams of seed untill you have tested it first...

Drink tea 30 to 40 minutes before smoking changa..or vaping crystal spice..

You will get your moneys worth with this method...you should get atleast 45 minutes to 2 hours of trip time!

instead of drinking the tea..you could just boil down the tea till it turns into a thick oil or paste then put in getetin capsuls then take capsules 30 to 40 minutes before vaping..

This is a tryed and true method that WORKS !!

vaping this way with full spectrum rue..is called .. [a Vapauasca experiance].. very much like the oral .[AYAHUASCA experiance].....only doesnt last as long...


 
physics envy
#203 Posted : 1/16/2022 6:50:42 PM

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Hi Starway - thank you for the vapeahuasca suggestion.

I have tried a rue / oral dmt experience a few times over the last decade. Except I didn't make a tea, I just took 3 grams of rue seeds, ground them in a coffee grinder, and packed them into capsules - and that worked just fine. (However, I don't recommend using straight seeds like I did...my wife tried it and had a HORRIBLE experience.)

Ava's descriptions of adding the THH to the mixture (as well as using it with LSD) gave me some curiosity to experiment again to see if adding THH would make it different than with rue alone. And the sublingual method was interesting as a new ROA as well.

But I definitely won't be doing the sublingual complexed dmt again - 2 days later and I still have healing to do under my tongue. It might be fine for some people, but not for me, unfortunately.

I'll try a bigger dose of Liftmode THH and more harmine and see what happens (with oral dmt), but if it doesn't work, I'll have to decide if I have the time/space/etc. to try making my own THH using zinc.

Will update again once I have a chance to retest the Liftmode.
Salvia quid enthusiast
 
physics envy
#204 Posted : 1/17/2022 10:16:29 PM

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Thank you for the tips, Ava.

I only use the Q21Q21 tek for extracting dmt, which uses picking lime and vinegar...no lye. Regardless, I likely just have a more sensitive sublingual area. I'm glad I gave it a go, but it's now 3 days later and today the area under my tongue is almost back to 100%. Only minor irritation now. It was worth it in the name of science, however :-)

Last night I went with the oral method which worked as well as hoped. I did complex the dmt onto a spoon, then dripped piping hot water from a pipette over the spoon and into a shot glass until the mixture was cleaned off the spoon. This gave me about 1/3 of a shot to drink.

I also took 275mg of the Liftmode 'THH' in a capsule, but I took it 45 minutes prior rather than at the same time as the rest. I can't say I noticed any particular effects from the THH again...so maybe my experiment with Liftmode is nearing its conclusion. I could also try it simultaneously with the dmt next time, but at this point it seems unlikely to make any difference.

I also used 150mg Harmine + 150mg vitamin C mixed in 1/2 shot of warm water. I drank the Harmine and the complexed dmt simultaneously. Then a few minutes later, I ate a piece of bread for carbs to instigate digestion.

The effects came on in about 35 minutes, and strong effects lasted for over an hour before they started to subside. It was just the right level I was looking for - very strong visuals for over an hour, and I did a lot of internal self-work during that time which included much physical squeezing and clearing/cleaning. I did have trouble sleeping, so next time I will take the combination earlier in the night.



Salvia quid enthusiast
 
starway7
#205 Posted : 1/17/2022 11:16:51 PM

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physics envy wrote:
Thank you for the tips, Ava.

I only use the Q21Q21 tek for extracting dmt, which uses picking lime and vinegar...no lye. Regardless, I likely just have a more sensitive sublingual area. I'm glad I gave it a go, but it's now 3 days later and today the area under my tongue is almost back to 100%. Only minor irritation now. It was worth it in the name of science, however :-)

Last night I went with the oral method which worked as well as hoped. I did complex the dmt onto a spoon, then dripped piping hot water from a pipette over the spoon and into a shot glass until the mixture was cleaned off the spoon. This gave me about 1/3 of a shot to drink.

I also took 275mg of the Liftmode 'THH' in a capsule, but I took it 45 minutes prior rather than at the same time as the rest. I can't say I noticed any particular effects from the THH again...so maybe my experiment with Liftmode is nearing its conclusion. I could also try it simultaneously with the dmt next time, but at this point it seems unlikely to make any difference.

I also used 150mg Harmine + 150mg vitamin C mixed in 1/2 shot of warm water. I drank the Harmine and the complexed dmt simultaneously. Then a few minutes later, I ate a piece of bread for carbs to instigate digestion.

The effects came on in about 35 minutes, and strong effects lasted for over an hour before they started to subside. It was just the right level I was looking for - very strong visuals for over an hour, and I did a lot of internal self-work during that time which included much physical squeezing and clearing/cleaning. I did have trouble sleeping, so next time I will take the combination earlier in the night.






Dont you think its posible that without using the HPbCD ..spoon hot water...method..even without the thh...

The ...[harmine with the dmt by itself]... would have worked fine..


without all the other steps listed above ...hot water HPBCD...spoon ect ?

or do you think the spoon /..HPBCD...comp;lexing...and all else.. made a difference/?


wont just... harmine..and dmt by itself....Wut? do the trick?
 
starway7
#206 Posted : 1/17/2022 11:21:02 PM

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physics envy wrote:
Thank you for the tips, Ava.

I only use the Q21Q21 tek for extracting dmt, which uses picking lime and vinegar...no lye. Regardless, I likely just have a more sensitive sublingual area. I'm glad I gave it a go, but it's now 3 days later and today the area under my tongue is almost back to 100%. Only minor irritation now. It was worth it in the name of science, however :-)

Last night I went with the oral method which worked as well as hoped. I did complex the dmt onto a spoon, then dripped piping hot water from a pipette over the spoon and into a shot glass until the mixture was cleaned off the spoon. This gave me about 1/3 of a shot to drink.

I also took 275mg of the Liftmode 'THH' in a capsule, but I took it 45 minutes prior rather than at the same time as the rest. I can't say I noticed any particular effects from the THH again...so maybe my experiment with Liftmode is nearing its conclusion. I could also try it simultaneously with the dmt next time, but at this point it seems unlikely to make any difference.

I also used 150mg Harmine + 150mg vitamin C mixed in 1/2 shot of warm water. I drank the Harmine and the complexed dmt simultaneously. Then a few minutes later, I ate a piece of bread for carbs to instigate digestion.

The effects came on in about 35 minutes, and strong effects lasted for over an hour before they started to subside. It was just the right level I was looking for - very strong visuals for over an hour, and I did a lot of internal self-work during that time which included much physical squeezing and clearing/cleaning. I did have trouble sleeping, so next time I will take the combination earlier in the night.






Dont you think its posible that without using the HPbCD ..spoon hot water...method..even without the thh...

The ...[harmine with the dmt by itself]... would have worked fine..


without all the other steps listed above ...hot water HPBCD...spoon ect ?

or do you think the spoon /..HPBCD...comp;lexing...and all else.. made a difference/?


I always thought ... harmine..and dmt by itself..[mixed in a shotglass with orange juice]..Wut? would do the trick?
 
physics envy
#207 Posted : 1/18/2022 2:25:12 AM

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Starway - I never used hpbcd in the past with oral dmt and it worked fine, so it’s definitely not required. But I thought I would try it to see if it seemed stronger or not. Hard to say really, I would have to try again using no hpbcd. I may give that a try in a month or so to find out.
Salvia quid enthusiast
 
igorcarajo
#208 Posted : 1/26/2022 11:30:32 PM
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ava69:

Instead of the harmine sublingual, have you tried orally ingested harmine, maybe at the same time as THH, 45 minutes before the sublingual HPBCD-complexed DMT?
 
igorcarajo
#209 Posted : 1/27/2022 6:53:04 PM
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ava69:

Thank you for the very detailed response. One thing that’s a missing piece for me is: did I really convert harmaline to THH? I think you can shine an ultraviolet light on THH and it should shine in a particular color. I need to read up on that. Also, I have taken freebase harmine/harmaline extracted from syrian rue a few times, and I know the kind of response I have to 200 mg of it (a slight “odd” feeling, visual perception a bit weird with tracers, all of the symptoms are mild, but I can definitely tell that I have ingested the substance). I have not tried my THH, and I haven’t found much information on what it feels like to just take THH by itself. Maybe I’m being overly cautious, but I feel like I want to get a good grasp what each substance does alone before I start combining them.
 
L-dreamer
#210 Posted : 2/9/2022 3:48:07 PM

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Cotton Candy - the idiot-proof way to do sublingual DMT

So in these last days I have been wondering how I can improve the sublingual administration because I still could not understand how to do it properly for sure lift-off every time. A method is good as long as it is simple and requires less variables to tinker with.
Tried to be more careful when licking from the spoon, it did not work. I tried to use regular dental cotton pads to stop salivation, it did not work. Tried fancier saliva dental pads, they do a great job of absorbing the DMT solution but they trap the liquid inside. Tried to use a needless syringe to smear the solution on the mouth floor in front of a mirror and all I got were two misfires. What would happen most of the time is that much of the liquid would not stick to the mouth floor when the tongue was pressed on it. The tingling sensation the absorbing DMT does stimulates greatly salivation, so most of the goodies were floating in the mouth uselessly. Uselessly since from what I saw, only the mouth floor, tongue and lips can let the DMT pass.

I saw that every time after I lick the spoon, invariably a residue remains. This residue gets solid and sticky really fast. Sometimes it's a sugary dust, sometimes it's a clear transparent casing on the spoon bottom. My desk is littered with these solid bits of sugar DMT that have stuck to it. This solid DMT is not sticky to my skin now, but it is solidly attached to the table. So what if I get this form of the solid sugar under my tongue instead of the liquid? I got the idea to use some regular cotton bits to smear the liquid sugar DMT on it. If you look at the pic I have attached, the left most is the liquid sugar DMT, the center picture is a cotton ball rolled in the liquid, and the most right picture is the cotton ball left to rest and solidify further.

I used the cotton ball with the liquid DMT (similar with the one on the center) with great results yesterday:
- I kept the cotton ball under my tongue for 5 minutes, probably the experience would have been stronger if I kept it longer
- you don't have to stress about not salivating. You will produce saliva, it will buildup like mad but it's ok, it's role is now to facilitate the passage of dmt from the cotton ball to the tongue
- so the only thing you have to care about now is to just not swallow any saliva, just hold the cotton ball down even if it pools a lot, no need to stress about it
- after you spit out the cotton ball and the saliva, be careful since swallowing the next saliva that forms in the next minutes will prolong a bit the comedown
So with the last experience I had the fast comeup of the DMT fireworks, but after an hour I landed in a deep harmala headspace and the visuals subsided mostly. I had the harmala tracers where the vision was wobbly and also the clunky movement, but no nausea at all. Mentally I was fine but everything I listened from recorded voices on the computer or talking with someone IRL, it was as if the 1.25-1.5 speed button on youtube was pushed. One of the most peculiar effects I experienced from harmalas. That too passed, overall I was a bit exhausted after the trip but had no trouble going to sleep.
Now next day I have felt all day a glowing calmness, as if nothing could mentally imbalance me. It wasn't indifference or euphoria, but a clean and grounded tranquility.

So I think I finally nailed the method reliably. I'll take a break for a few days but next week I will try the solid DMT on cotton that is resting now (from the most right picture). I want to see if it absorbs better as a solid instead of the cotton with the sugar DMT still in a liquid form (which in itself is amazing), and if it is a way to preserve the DMT for medium term use.
I can imagine all sorts of things you could do with this sugar form of DMT. You can realistically make lolipops from it, tic tacs. Flakes of this sugar DMT can go in a chocolate for deep pharmahuasca experiences. You could make cotton rolls with carefully calculated dosages and share it with others, for light, medium, or strong experiences.
L-dreamer attached the following image(s):
sdmt.png (996kb) downloaded 177 time(s).
 
starway7
#211 Posted : 2/10/2022 10:54:53 PM

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Hi L-dreamer...

Are you saying that dmt worked sublingually because you put it in a cotton ball?

What kind of liquid was the dmt suspended in? alcohol?...wt vinegar?...

Did you use the HPBCD?


Ive suspended dmt in ear plug foam for sublingual use...didnt have much luck...
 
L-dreamer
#212 Posted : 2/11/2022 12:31:57 AM

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starway7 wrote:
Hi L-dreamer...

Are you saying that dmt worked sublingually because you put it in a cotton ball?

What kind of liquid was the dmt suspended in? alcohol?...wt vinegar?...

Did you use the HPBCD?


Ive suspended dmt in ear plug foam for sublingual use...didnt have much luck...


Yes I used the HPBCD, I am using DMT now in the way ava described it at the start of the thread, with the harmalas and all that. And I will be using any kind of oral or sublingual DMT only complexed to to HPBCD, it does wonders, you don't need anything else.
I am saying it will work surely sublingually if you put it in a small cotton ball .The point is you need something to hold the gooey liquid in place or else you lose it in the saliva and will not absorb in other parts of the mouth. You know it will work when it will start stinging and prickling the mucosa of the mouth floor and the tongue.
 
physics envy
#213 Posted : 2/12/2022 12:00:46 AM

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L-dreamer wrote:
And I will be using any kind of oral or sublingual DMT only complexed to to HPBCD, it does wonders, you don't need anything else.


Hello L-dreamer! Have you found that the complexed DMT is more potent than when non-complexed?

I haven't had a chance to do another oral test with just the harmalas and non-complexed dmt to compare to my last complexed 60mg dmt test yet, but hoping to try again soon.
Salvia quid enthusiast
 
L-dreamer
#214 Posted : 2/12/2022 1:44:53 AM

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physics envy wrote:


Have you found that the complexed DMT is more potent than when non-complexed?


I haven't had any proper tries with a full dose of freebase DMT that reaches my stomach to make a proper comparison. But the few times I swallow a bit of DMT from the sublingual route (which was always 60 mg that is spit out after 5 minutes, I never manage to hold it 15 min like ava does) it seems to absorb very fast (your stomach feels a bit funny, but very subtle) and prolongs the initial sublingual trip (like a comet tail would be a good metaphor). Previous pharmahuasca experiences without HPBCD had the unpredictable onset, unreliable dosage effect, or intense vomiting after the DMT hit the stomach.
I can presume that HPBCD makes oral DMT faster, more potent, and less nauseous, probably ava can report better on this but I will see if I can test this in the next weeks.
 
igorcarajo
#215 Posted : 2/13/2022 6:41:41 AM
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On the topic of THH I wonder what happens if instead of separating the harmine from harmaline and then adding zinc to the harmaline to convert it to THH, one would add zinc to the harmine/harmaline mix. Would the harmaline convert to THH and the harmine remain intact?
 
murklan
#216 Posted : 2/13/2022 10:47:10 AM

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igorcarajo wrote:
On the topic of THH I wonder what happens if instead of separating the harmine from harmaline and then adding zinc to the harmaline to convert it to THH, one would add zinc to the harmine/harmaline mix. Would the harmaline convert to THH and the harmine remain intact?


Yes I believe this is true. I've only done a magnesium ribbon reduction of a harmine/harmaline mix I've extracted myself. And the resulting powder still has a bit of bitternes (but a lot less then the un-reduced mix) and it also glows greenish in UV. Indicating that thera are harmine in there. I don't mind that but I'm anyway thinking of ways to separate it afterwards.
 
igorcarajo
#217 Posted : 2/13/2022 4:46:53 PM
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ava69 wrote:
Great question igorcarajo. I don't recommend doing it that way as when harmine is reacted with zinc (I've done this before to see what happens) it does remain as harmine but the harmine will give off a strange smell or odor indefinitely as if the reaction has some minor unknown influence on the alkaloid. Even left out in open air, it will continue to "stink the strange odor". You also will not know how much harmine is mixed in with the THH making it impossible to dose correctly. The harmine when used this way also seems to impart a strange side effect of minor drainage down the throat of flim, don't recommend the resulting "weird harmine". It's best not to have large amounts of harmine mixed in with the harmaline during the conversion to THH. It's not much work to separate the harmine from the harmaline with extreme purity using 10% janitorial ammonium hydroxide found at some hardware stores. Post #12 cover this. The big box stores do not carry the 10% ammonium hydroxide but I am able to find it at an old mom and pop hardware store near the lake where I live, and it can be ordered on line. It comes in 1 gallon containers for a few dollars, pic on post #12. Keep in mind harmine and THH both glow blue when a bit is dabbed onto a cue tip pre-wetted with vinegar and smeared on a paper plate and held under blacklight. Harmaline glows greenish.

Thanks. Why do you prefer to use janitorial ammonium hydroxide as opposed to something like NaOH? Also, what do you think about using sodium bicarbonate to precipitate the harmine, and then use a stronger base to precipitate the harmaline? That way you wouldn’t have to have a pH meter, calibrate it, etc.
 
igorcarajo
#218 Posted : 2/13/2022 10:41:08 PM
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So the blob you make with DMT and HPBCD and water, what kind of consistency does it have? Can you make it in a mortar and pestle instead of in a spoon? When you put it under your tongue, does it eventually dissolve completely?
 
igorcarajo
#219 Posted : 2/14/2022 1:24:24 AM
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Thanks, and sorry to keep pestering you with questions. When you want to precipitate the harmaline, how high do you need to get the pH?
 
igorcarajo
#220 Posted : 2/17/2022 11:45:09 PM
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ava69 wrote:
In closing, in order to create the 75g very pure THH that will last me a lifetime, here a few pics of the end stage. Just follow the "Tao of rue extraction" here, or something similar to get to the ending stage where you then precipitate pure harmine & pure harmaline following instructions on post #12 here.

pic1: 274 grams rue salt, 200 grams of this rue salt was used to precipitate the below alkaloids, rest put away.
pic2: 23g pure harmine fb precipitated at ph=7.0
pic3: not shown: 5g middle fb precipitation (ph=7.1 to 7.5 is a small precipitation of harmine with some harmaline mix), put away to save for a rainy day when you do another rue extract, to add back in, to further separate.
pic4: 116g pure harmaline fb precipitated above ph=7.5.
pic5: 75g very pure tetrahydroharmine fb made from 100g of the harmaline fb (around 75% yield, similar to yield in TIHKAL, which was also 75%). But the conversion uses all over the counter chemicals (ammonium hydroxide, vinegar, zinc dust) unlike the TIHKAL synthesis.

So when you separated the harmine from the harmaline you ended up with 23 g harmine, 5 g harmine/harmaline mix, and 116 g harmaline? I’m confused by those numbers. I thought I saw somewhere that syrian rue has similar amounts of harmine and harmaline, maybe 60/40 one way or the other, but you got 5 times more harmaline than harmine. What gives?
 
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