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low dose pharmahuasca? Options
 
starway7
#1 Posted : 2/26/2021 3:50:26 PM

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This is just an idea...

I know that oral DMT requires a much higher dose of DMT because of the guts destructive action on dmt...

[[it apears one takes at least 100mgs ormore of dmt orally in hopes of getting a little of it past the gut and into the blood stream undamaged by stomach acid.?

[meaning you are taking a larger dose of DMT because of stomach acids distructive effect on the molecule]

I could be missing something..but im thinking of the posibility of taking low dose DMT orally with a reduced concintrated rue tea..

In order to do this i believe one must protect the molecule from destructive stomach acids..

My idea is....could it be posibile to take lower doses like... 10 ..20..30..mgs of dmt orally in combination with a concintrated rue tea in a smalll shot glass...by first taking an over the counter ..[ACID REDUCER] like ..Omeprazole...40 minutes to an hour before consuming the light?

These acid reducers actually temporarily and safely reduce acid production in the gut and...

if this could work!...that would mean using much less of the molecule ..reducing waste..and being able to dial in the trip level you actually want...

This would be good for people who dont want to inhale anything...allowing for the person to experiance a very low level gentle DMT experiance all the way up to a much more intense oral experiance?

I know about the Enzimes in the blood that slowly will bring you back to baseline..[thats good].

But If stomach acid is the main enemy of oral DMT? ..
[[and you can first dial down the stomach acid]].[with an otc acid reducer on empty stomach].[before you ingest the light ...the oral experiance could posibly work better and prevent waste of the molecule?

I have not tryed this idea yet ...but anyone who wants to please release your results..
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
bismillah
#2 Posted : 2/26/2021 9:08:24 PM

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Monoamine oxidase is the enzyme responsible for deactivating DMT in the body. If you consume an MAO inhibitor found in the likes of syrian rue seeds and caapi bark, you will not have to worry about any DMT being wasted. Stomach acid does not destroy DMT.

Without an MAOI you could take any amount of DMT you could reasonably consume and it would still not make it to your brain.
I don't want comfort. I want God, I want poetry, I want real danger, I want freedom, I want goodness. I want a clever signature.
 
downwardsfromzero
#3 Posted : 2/26/2021 11:24:11 PM

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If there's a sideline metabolic route for DMT it's probably N-demethylation by CYP2D6 if we can draw an analogy with 5-MeO-DMT. We also have a bit more about metabolism of DMT and other substances discussed in this thread.

A look at section 7.3 and fig.3 in this article shows that another cytochrome p450 variant hydroxylates DMT on the benzene ring. The resulting mostly 6-OH DMT, and its N-oxide, in all likelihood gets glucuronidated prior to elimination via the kidneys. Maybe this was just the rats doing this, though.

This means there's a possibility that your DMT mileage could be stretched by using the right enzyme inhibitor, of which there are numerous options in the plant kingdom. This could be effective on intensity or duration, or both.

bismillah wrote:
Without an MAOI you could take any amount of DMT you could reasonably consume and it would still not make it to your brain.
There must be a saturation point for the enzymes at some preposterous dose but I don't think it's a very sensible idea to try to find out. For one thing, it would be incredibly wasteful.
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ShamensStamen
#4 Posted : 2/26/2021 11:27:27 PM
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Yeah, what bismillah said. DMT's oral bioavailability has nothing to do with stomach acid. I've seen people mention here and there the stomach acid thing, when really it's Monoamine Oxidase-A that breaks down DMT, therefore you need a MAO-A inhibitor like the Rue/Caapi/Harmalas or Moclobemide.

The only thing a stomach acid reducer would do is slow digestion if you take too much, which may end up screwing with the timing window between the Harmalas and DMT, therefore throwing off the DMT's activation. I used to take Zantac for a good few years, and after awhile i had to take like 300mgs twice a day and basically had no stomach acid, which was a good thing i guess if i had to throw up. Now i take Limonene for heartburn and it works better than Zantac, Pepcid, Prilosec, tums or anything else i've tried.

But yeah if you wanna low dose the DMT, or use DMT more functionally, check out Moclobemide if you can, it's pretty clear/transparent on the body and purely inhibits MAO-A unlike the Harmalas which inhibit MAO-A but also have a lot of other effects/properties/actions, so using Moclobemide is definitely more functional than using Harmalas, although i prefer the Harmalas overall. You can also try using pure Harmine as that may be more functional than having Harmaline in the mix.

Keep in mind though, if you want every little bit of DMT to count and be absorbed/activated, you want to inhibit MAO-A as fully as you can, and time the consumption of the DMT sometime after you take the MAO-A inhibitor so that you take the DMT when MAO-A is fully inhibited. Gut MAO-A inhibition by Harmalas or Moclobemide doesn't last but maybe a couple hours, i've personally found dosing DMT an hour in seems to work best for me personally, but less than 30 minutes in or more than 2 hours in and the DMT will have a reduced bioavailability as it relies solely on MAO-A inhibition for activation.
 
ShamensStamen
#5 Posted : 2/26/2021 11:31:24 PM
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Also, as downwardsfromzero stated, something like CYP2D6 may be involved in DMT's metabolization as well. Which, Harmalas potently inhibit CYP2D6, but are also metabolized by CYP2D6, so in essence they actually end up inhibiting their own metabolization to some degree, which may have something to do with the reverse tolerance the Harmalas have, i'm not sure though, idk what exactly causes the reverse tolerance to occur, just that CYP2D6 may be involved.

But yeah there's a lot of CYP2D6 inhibitors in the plant and supplement world, iirc i've tried some CYP2D6 inhibitors in the past to see if they'd make DMT orally active and never succeeded, but idk how strong of an inhibitor they were or if i even timed it right, so it's something still worth investigating imo but MAO-A inhibition is for sure the main thing you want to inhibit for DMT to become orally active.
 
starway7
#6 Posted : 2/27/2021 1:34:05 AM

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Ok then rue should be good enough to slow down the enzimes...

But WHY do people often take large amounts of DMT like ..[100mgs].. to... [[150mgs] oraly?

do they just want a heavier trip?

I have vaped lots of spice.. but never oraly yet...

Could 20 or 30 mgs of spice be experianced with the right amount of rue tea?

i would like to start with a low oral dose first...is this posible?

It seems like if you consumed enough rue tea first ...then a mixture of orange juice and dmt in lowdoses could work...

But taking 100 mgs to 150 mgs of oral dmt seems wasteful /?

But ive never heard of anyone taking that low of an oral dose yet/

i guess what i want is a gentle low oral dose of DMT plus rue to test the waters..
 
bismillah
#7 Posted : 2/27/2021 2:06:00 AM

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You need more going through the oral route cause it takes a longer and more random path from your stomach to your skull (hence why oral trips are so long also). Your lungs are like a fast lane for DMT, and so even a small amount can give a strong trip if it all takes effect at once. At least, this is my layman's understanding.
I don't want comfort. I want God, I want poetry, I want real danger, I want freedom, I want goodness. I want a clever signature.
 
ShamensStamen
#8 Posted : 2/27/2021 2:39:04 AM
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Some people just need more or less. People have different sensitivities, there's different levels of experiences/effects based on dosage, some people may have higher amounts of MAO-A and so more DMT is needed, or some people have higher amounts of CYP2D6 so they would need more of a Harmala dosage which can also play into the DMT dosage. One thing i've learned is that the more Harmalas you use, the less DMT you'll need, the less Harmalas you use the more DMT you'll need, a lot hinges on proper MAO-A inhibition and timing for DMT's full activation.

A quote from here at the Nexus regarding oral Pharmahuasca DMT dosage - "In general: Low: 20-50mg, mid: 50-100mg, strong: 100-150mg. Keep in mind that a high dose of DMT can be an overwhelming experience. Start low and build up slowly."

Also with the Rue, the timing window for when to take the DMT may be a little different with Rue in tea form. I use Rue seed powder in capsules for the most part, haven't really worked with it in tea form. But regardless if i take the Rue seed powder capsules, or freebased Rue or Harmala extract in a capsule, or Moclobemide, 30 minutes to an hour between the Rue/Harmalas/Moclobemide and the DMT seems to be what works best, usually an hour in gives me the best results. With Rue in tea form, it could be the same, or it could be quicker, idk, if it's quicker i would guesstimate about 10 to 15 to 20 minutes, maybe up to 30 or 45 minutes between the Rue and the DMT, but i kinda like the sound of 20 minutes apart perhaps, but again idk. Idk if the timing window changes at all with tea vs seed powder or extract form, but teas of things usually have a quicker onset and such, so maybe. If you wanna use the Rue seed powder in capsules, it's a little rougher on the gut but it's definitely consistent ime, but with the tea, just try different times for taking the DMT and see which time window works best for you. It could take a few tries to get things down right for you, but it's certainly worth the experimentation and trial and error.
 
Jees
#9 Posted : 2/27/2021 11:14:04 AM

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The better your maoi strenghtens, the lesser deems you need orally to get effects, so there's hardly a deems value to take as a measure, it's a combo effect (as mentioned above).

Personal sensitivity can skew 'dosages needed' to get somewhere, one day is not the other and surprises are not unheard of in both dull and stronger-than-expected experiences.
This is a fairly random factor and very hard to predict. The most determining factor is speed of molecules reaching the 'computer', how fast the actives get assimilated. This proces is hard to manipulate with oral ROA. Could be 30 mins, could be 3 hours, no joke. If stretched out in time the peak will be less high.

A ton of maoi needs lesser deems to get you floating, but it also influences the nature of the experience itself. If you use the minimum maoi then deems can have a stronger personality in the nature of the trip. Traditional ayahuasca aims mostly on a lots of vine (maoi) and not necessarily much of deems. It's all there to choose, nothing is must-do-so.
 
Tomtegubbe
#10 Posted : 2/27/2021 1:36:07 PM

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starway7 wrote:
I have not tryed this idea yet ...but anyone who wants to please release your results..
I heartly recommend low dose pharmahuasca. It allows you to enjoy everyday joys, even watch some films or listen to music with a new depth and carry these experiences with you when you return from the trip. And if it's a good trip, there's no need to return. 😎

I grinded 3 g of syrian rue and mixed with 2 g of mhrb. Squeezed some lemon juice in and waited like fifteen minutes. I noticed a little layer forming on top of solution, which I took as a good sign. Drank this in the morning and went out for a walk in the winter sun. Very good idea πŸ™‚
 
starway7
#11 Posted : 2/27/2021 1:54:34 PM

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Tomtegubbe wrote:
starway7 wrote:
I have not tryed this idea yet ...but anyone who wants to please release your results..
I heartly recommend low dose pharmahuasca. It allows you to enjoy everyday joys, even watch some films or listen to music with a new depth and carry these experiences with you when you return from the trip. And if it's a good trip, there's no need to return. 😎

I grinded 3 g of syrian rue and mixed with 2 g of mhrb. Squeezed some lemon juice in and waited like fifteen minutes. I noticed a little layer forming on top of solution, which I took as a good sign. Drank this in the morning and went out for a walk in the winter sun. Very good idea πŸ™‚



sounds good but it sounds like you were using whole ground up bark/?

Whole bark may havea diferent personality than extracted DMT...dont you think..



Ive always used extracted DMT in vapor form... what is finely ground up ..[acacia bark] in capsuls like?
 
Ramma
#12 Posted : 2/27/2021 2:04:28 PM

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starway7 wrote:
Ok then rue should be good enough to slow down the enzimes...

But WHY do people often take large amounts of DMT like ..[100mgs].. to... [[150mgs] oraly?

do they just want a heavier trip?

And all drugs are kinda like that. Its why people snort drugs, and inject them. They hit harder and take less per weight than oral consumption
Blissful is solitude for one who's content, who has heard the Dhamma, who sees.
Blissful is non-affliction with regard for the world,restraint for living beings.
Blissful is dispassion with regard for the world, the overcoming of sensuality.
But the subduing of the conceit "I am"
That is truly
the ultimate bliss.
 
Tomtegubbe
#13 Posted : 2/27/2021 4:00:16 PM

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starway7 wrote:
sounds good but it sounds like you were using whole ground up bark/?

Whole bark may havea diferent personality than extracted DMT...dont you think..



Ive always used extracted DMT in vapor form... what is finely ground up ..[acacia bark] in capsuls like?

Yes, I used grounded bark. If you take small amounts like the 2 grams, it's not too harsh. I think it has a benign nature.

I've only once taken extracted DMT orally (with harmalas) and it seemed to rise and go down very fast and I couldn't get as much out of it as I would have liked to. I haven't felt the need to give it another try since the bark works pretty well.

I think it will work in capsules too. The idea of mixing the bark with lemon juice came from the Lemon TEK used with mushrooms. The theory is that it should jump start the ingestion process as you don't have to wait until the acid in your stomach does it's trick. I think it works.
 
 
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