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Ethyl acetate approach [CIELO] Options
 
Quetzal7
#1401 Posted : 3/26/2023 11:02:58 AM

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This tek select only mescaline from the cactus ? why ?

Is there a way to be more full spectrum, using a similar apoproach?


(asking to have a better / broader understanding before trying)
I'm exited to try pure mesc, but also in long term, i will probably want to extend to all alkaloids, as i truly beleive they are part of the magic Smile
 

Live plants. Sustainable, ethically sourced, native American owned.
 
endlessness
#1402 Posted : 3/26/2023 12:58:02 PM

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There is no evidence of a "full spectrum" alkaloids in significant quantities and effects in San Pedro, peruvianus and bridgesii. So far, other alkaloids have only been found in trace amounts in those 3 species. Even if they did, which there hasnt been a single publication showing it so far, it doesn't mean we could actually tell it apart if testing blind. Belief and self suggestion are way more powerful than people think.

Peyote and other cact like terscheskii may have other alkaloids in higher amounts, but afaik blind tests have not been done to show the significance of those alks in the effects.

My suggestion: regardless of this, give CIELO a try Smile

Nemooo, Im attaching the .jdx NMR spectra, not sure if your software can open it.
 
Orion
#1403 Posted : 3/26/2023 6:19:33 PM

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shroombee wrote:
Orion wrote:
I will try redissolving the goo in distilled water and evaporating to see if it crystalizes.

The TEK lists four options for dealing with goo:

(1) Do an A/B extraction on the goo,
(2) If a TEK execution is suspect, add the goo to cactus paste and do the TEK propely, increasing citric acid by the amount of expected mescaline present in the goo,
(3) decant off the solvent and cover the goo in fresh EA, it has been observed that crystals can grow out of the goo after a few days sitting in fresh solvent and stirring can help the process move along if crystal formation stops and there is still goo left, discard the solvent and add more
(4) if goo forms repeatedly, retry the TEK using fumaric acid instead of citric acid (fumaric may be more robust at forming xtals)


If you repeatedly get goo, try adding dry ethyl acetate to the extract before salting with citric acid. The theory being the additional EA will offset excess water in the extract.


I've done 1. 2 would mean harvesting cactus just for this. I'm only converting a small sample here so that would be a waste of time.

There seems to be no crystalization from dissolving the product in water and evaporating. From my understanding monomescaline citrate would crystalize from that, so if it doesn't then it must be trimescaline citrate or another form that somehow salted at an acidic PH. Not sure on that one.

3 will be the next one I try. As for 4... I already converted to HCL from fumarate before. I'm happier to return it to HCL. Easily done. By this point it will be the cleanest HCL I've ever seen Very happy

I wasn't just trying to see nice crystals but also get a product that was purity tested as just mescaline and not other alkaloids... which might not even be an issue now as endlessness says:

endlessness wrote:
There is no evidence of a "full spectrum" alkaloids in significant quantities and effects in San Pedro, peruvianus and bridgesii. So far, other alkaloids have only been found in trace amounts in those 3 species. Even if they did, which there hasnt been a single publication showing it so far, it doesn't mean we could actually tell it apart if testing blind. Belief and self suggestion are way more powerful than people think


I've taken acetone-washed mesc HCL and had a quick comeup, early visuals and an easy come down. I've taken the equivalent dose of unwashed HCL and acetate mix and it felt as if it never came on until about 7 hours later when I hit a joint. It was both tiring and stimulating and had almost no open eyed visuals and strong closed eye visuals. Completely different experience. I'm sure I smoked a fat one after the first time too but it didn't do anything crazy. It's easy to understand why people believe how the unwashed or 'full spectrum' stuff is different. But like you say, there is no actual data. I'm divided on this, personally. It's like they have tested this cactus or that one, but what about mine Razz ?

I can't argue that the data shows what the data shows.
Art Van D'lay wrote:
Smoalk. It. And. See.
 
endlessness
#1404 Posted : 3/26/2023 8:35:48 PM

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Orion wrote:

I've taken acetone-washed mesc HCL and had a quick comeup, early visuals and an easy come down. I've taken the equivalent dose of unwashed HCL and acetate mix and it felt as if it never came on until about 7 hours later when I hit a joint. It was both tiring and stimulating and had almost no open eyed visuals and strong closed eye visuals. Completely different experience. I'm sure I smoked a fat one after the first time too but it didn't do anything crazy. It's easy to understand why people believe how the unwashed or 'full spectrum' stuff is different. But like you say, there is no actual data. I'm divided on this, personally. It's like they have tested this cactus or that one, but what about mine Razz ?

I can't argue that the data shows what the data shows.


As an experienced psychonaut, Im sure you´ve experienced already that even the same batch and dosage of the same substnce in different days can result in very different experiences.. How can one judge an extract from a single experience, from two different batches in an uncontrolled dosage comparison, plus adding another substance (cannabis) on top of it ?

Id be happy to test your extracts if you still have the ones that resulted in a different experience, to see what mass spec tells us.
 
dragonrider
#1405 Posted : 3/26/2023 8:48:59 PM

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endlessness wrote:
Orion wrote:

I've taken acetone-washed mesc HCL and had a quick comeup, early visuals and an easy come down. I've taken the equivalent dose of unwashed HCL and acetate mix and it felt as if it never came on until about 7 hours later when I hit a joint. It was both tiring and stimulating and had almost no open eyed visuals and strong closed eye visuals. Completely different experience. I'm sure I smoked a fat one after the first time too but it didn't do anything crazy. It's easy to understand why people believe how the unwashed or 'full spectrum' stuff is different. But like you say, there is no actual data. I'm divided on this, personally. It's like they have tested this cactus or that one, but what about mine Razz ?

I can't argue that the data shows what the data shows.


As an experienced psychonaut, Im sure you´ve experienced already that even the same batch and dosage of the same substnce in different days can result in very different experiences.. How can one judge an extract from a single experience, from two different batches in an uncontrolled dosage comparison, plus adding another substance (cannabis) on top of it ?

Id be happy to test your extracts if you still have the ones that resulted in a different experience, to see what mass spec tells us.

Yes, there are many variables that can significantly affect the experience.

Tolerance is one such variable. I don't know exactly how long mescaline tolerance lasts, but it is said to be even longer than LSD-tolerance, wich is about 12 to 16 days.

If your second attempt was within that, let's say 16 day period, then tolerance alone could probably explain the felt differences.
 
Orion
#1406 Posted : 3/26/2023 10:09:40 PM

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endlessness wrote:
As an experienced psychonaut, Im sure you´ve experienced already that even the same batch and dosage of the same substnce in different days can result in very different experiences.. How can one judge an extract from a single experience, from two different batches in an uncontrolled dosage comparison, plus adding another substance (cannabis) on top of it ?

Id be happy to test your extracts if you still have the ones that resulted in a different experience, to see what mass spec tells us.


I don't because I ate them... Hey, don't look at me, I got the idea that mescaline contained accessory alkaloids on the word of trusted folks on this very forum Laughing I wanted to know the difference of salting them out or avoiding them with HCL, fumaric acid and such. And right as I was about to give loveall all the praise in the world for finally cracking the code... you tell me they were never an issue in the first place! Big grin

I think somebody owes me a bottle of anhydrous acetone ! Shocked

Just kidding. I absolutely agree that each experience with the same substance is different. This includes DMT, mushrooms, even cannabis (to a lesser degree). I just mean to say that I can understand why people people think that mescaline is different depending on how it was extracted or purified. In my experience it varies a lot more than other psychedelics, and in more ways than they do. Even if that is just mescaline being mescaline.

Other people like myself who know that DMT can vary a lot, don't subscribe to the idea of 'jungle spice' and agree that 'a cube is a cube' (except penis envy in terms of potency) still talk of mescaline differently. Some say it's an entirely different thing when pure. Some say it is pure magic. Some say the magic is lost. Some say very stimulating. Some say sedating. Mescaline just has something about it that convinces more people that something is different about the substance itself, even if it's all in your (or my) head.

The truth is I would rather it was in our heads. Then I don't have to waste time and solvents looking for perfection when I already have it. Even if perfection is a hydrochloride and not a citrate in my case... so far.


Art Van D'lay wrote:
Smoalk. It. And. See.
 
Loveall
#1407 Posted : 3/27/2023 10:34:17 PM

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Orion wrote:
There seems to be no crystalization from dissolving the product in water and evaporating. From my understanding monomescaline citrate would crystalize from that, so if it doesn't then it must be trimescaline citrate or another form that somehow salted at an acidic PH. Not sure on that one.


Trimescaline forms at higher pH levels, FYI.
πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š Mescaline CIELO TEK πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š
πŸ’šπŸŒ³πŸ’šDMT salt e-juice HIELO TEKπŸ’šπŸŒ³πŸ’š
πŸ’šπŸƒπŸ’š Salvinorin Chilled Acetone with IPA and Naphtha re-X TEKπŸ’šπŸƒπŸ’š
 
Orion
#1408 Posted : 3/28/2023 1:49:47 AM

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Loveall wrote:
Trimescaline forms at higher pH levels, FYI.


Yes I know. Yet it formed at an acidic PH and gave goo despite having no excess water in the solvent. I'm just thinking out loud.

If I have understood correctly, you can recrystalize monomescaline citrate by disssolving in water and evaporating it as has been mentioned in this thread. But for me this just returns goo, leading me to wonder if this is monomescaline or trimescaline. But the PH should have only allowed for monomescaline citrate to form, as it formed at an acidic PH, not alkaline. Is that not right ?

None of this is vital if the product is active. Adding extra fresh EA also did not make it crystalize. So I've crossed every box for goo.

Remember this was a conversion from Pure mesc HCL, not a direct extraction from cactus. This is the result, which is curious but surely worth noting, if for nothing other than a reference?

In future I will post my results from actual cactus material instead and see how that goes. This is still an excellent tek.
Art Van D'lay wrote:
Smoalk. It. And. See.
 
Loveall
#1409 Posted : 3/28/2023 2:05:14 AM

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Orion wrote:
Loveall wrote:
Trimescaline forms at higher pH levels, FYI.


Yes I know. Yet it formed at an acidic PH and gave goo despite having no excess water in the solvent. I'm just thinking out loud.

If I have understood correctly, you can recrystalize monomescaline citrate by disssolving in water and evaporating it as has been mentioned in this thread. But for me this just returns goo, leading me to wonder if this is monomescaline or trimescaline. But the PH should have only allowed for monomescaline citrate to form, as it formed at an acidic PH, not alkaline. Is that not right ?

None of this is vital if the product is active. Adding extra fresh EA also did not make it crystalize. So I've crossed every box for goo.

Remember this was a conversion from Pure mesc HCL, not a direct extraction from cactus. This is the result, which is curious but surely worth noting, if for nothing other than a reference?

In future I will post my results from actual cactus material instead and see how that goes. This is still an excellent tek.


Agreed. I thought you were referring to the intial goo from the cacti extraction, where the pH strips was not acidic after adding the citric acid.

As you may have seen, there is some discussion here https://www.dmt-nexus.me...mp;m=1131459#post1131459
πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š Mescaline CIELO TEK πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š
πŸ’šπŸŒ³πŸ’šDMT salt e-juice HIELO TEKπŸ’šπŸŒ³πŸ’š
πŸ’šπŸƒπŸ’š Salvinorin Chilled Acetone with IPA and Naphtha re-X TEKπŸ’šπŸƒπŸ’š
 
Loveall
#1410 Posted : 3/30/2023 4:16:28 AM

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Here are mescaline citrate xtals from cielo under the microscope at two different magnifications. Cheers.
Loveall attached the following image(s):
WIN_20230329_22_04_26_Pro.jpg (184kb) downloaded 144 time(s).
WIN_20230329_22_05_46_Pro.jpg (132kb) downloaded 143 time(s).
πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š Mescaline CIELO TEK πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š
πŸ’šπŸŒ³πŸ’šDMT salt e-juice HIELO TEKπŸ’šπŸŒ³πŸ’š
πŸ’šπŸƒπŸ’š Salvinorin Chilled Acetone with IPA and Naphtha re-X TEKπŸ’šπŸƒπŸ’š
 
Loveall
#1411 Posted : 3/30/2023 6:18:46 PM

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One more βœ¨πŸŒ΅πŸ”¬, this one grew from water evaporation of dissolved product. Previous post above was straight from the TEK.
Loveall attached the following image(s):
WIN_20230330_11_33_32_Pro_mag.jpg (67kb) downloaded 126 time(s).
πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š Mescaline CIELO TEK πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š
πŸ’šπŸŒ³πŸ’šDMT salt e-juice HIELO TEKπŸ’šπŸŒ³πŸ’š
πŸ’šπŸƒπŸ’š Salvinorin Chilled Acetone with IPA and Naphtha re-X TEKπŸ’šπŸƒπŸ’š
 
Loveall
#1412 Posted : 3/30/2023 6:39:10 PM

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While excess water can be an issue when squeezing the French press too hard while pouring out the pulls, I had an interesting result on my last two extractions.

I remembered Sakkadelik's suggestion to squeeze rue seeds. So before pouring out the solvent I squeezed the paste in the french press twice, as hard as I could. Then, I let it rest for a minute before pouring it off.

Sequence was:

-Stir for a minute
-Sqeeeze hard
-Stir for a minute
-Sqeeeze hard
-Stir to loosen only
-Wait one minute
-Pour out with minimal pressure

I got even less xtals in my second jar than what I usually get (more mescaline was in the first jar). The idea is that squeezing the paste forces solvent in/out of the plant matrix making the pulls more efficient (as Sakkadelic reported for Harmalas in rue seeds). By resting for a minute the disturbed water seems to go back into the paste and not end up in the extract as a large layer (just a few ml as usual). I've done this process twice and it seems like a slight improvement to the current TEK.

Also, it looks like the EA wash can be made even more lazy with more solvent recovered. Currently testing this alternative:

- 1/3 Volume with 10% sodium carbonate
- The EA can be cloudy at this point, presumably from insoluble sodium citrate in the EA. However if that is the source of cloudiness, I don't understand why it doesn't go into the 10% sodium carbonate water? Does sodium citrate become insoluble in 10% sodium carbonate solution??? This is testable of course.
- Rest in fridge until not cloudy (a few days). A fine layer of sodium citrate will form at the bottom.

Another idea for the washes is to reduce the % of sodium carbonate (say 5%) so that the sodium citrate is immediately soluble and we get clear washed EA right away, making the process even simpler.

Just some thoughts on how to improve the TEK a little bit more. Cheers.
πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š Mescaline CIELO TEK πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š
πŸ’šπŸŒ³πŸ’šDMT salt e-juice HIELO TEKπŸ’šπŸŒ³πŸ’š
πŸ’šπŸƒπŸ’š Salvinorin Chilled Acetone with IPA and Naphtha re-X TEKπŸ’šπŸƒπŸ’š
 
starbob
#1413 Posted : 3/30/2023 8:29:50 PM

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Loveall wrote:
I got even less xtals in my second jar than what I usually get (more mescaline was in the first jar).


Any details there you can elaborate a bit on? For example: first jar was pulls 1-3, 2nd 4-6, jar 1 ~70% xtals & jar 2 ~30% xtals? I'm keen to try this as I recall someone else here commented was also doing hard squeezes without water issues. Epic crystal shots by the way, if it were my batch there'd be a big hair photobombing it.
 
Loveall
#1414 Posted : 3/30/2023 9:34:16 PM

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starbob wrote:
Loveall wrote:
I got even less xtals in my second jar than what I usually get (more mescaline was in the first jar).


Any details there you can elaborate a bit on? For example: first jar was pulls 1-3, 2nd 4-6, jar 1 ~70% xtals & jar 2 ~30% xtals? I'm keen to try this as I recall someone else here commented was also doing hard squeezes without water issues. Epic crystal shots by the way, if it were my batch there'd be a big hair photobombing it.


Lol!

I get around 5% to 10% more product in the second jar. With the squeeze it has been below 2%. First jar is 4 to 5 pulls and second jar 3 to 4 pulls more.
πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š Mescaline CIELO TEK πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š
πŸ’šπŸŒ³πŸ’šDMT salt e-juice HIELO TEKπŸ’šπŸŒ³πŸ’š
πŸ’šπŸƒπŸ’š Salvinorin Chilled Acetone with IPA and Naphtha re-X TEKπŸ’šπŸƒπŸ’š
 
Loveall
#1415 Posted : 3/31/2023 4:32:47 PM

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Been working on the EA washes. Trying to make it more lazy/easy.

The issue is that the EA is cloudy after the sodium carbonate wash. The freeze/filter clarifies it but is a bunch of work and uses EA as some is cought int the ice xtals. Over time this can add up and would be good to delay having to go to the hardware store for a $25 gallon of solvent.

Tested a bunch of combos. Looks like a brine wash clarifies the EA πŸ˜ŠπŸ™

I'm testing this lazy combo next, looks very promising:

- Wash used EA with 10% sodium carbonate solution (note: sodium citrate dissolves well in this, not sure why/how endlessness has issues). Solvent will be mildly cloudy (back light won't shine through). It is important to shake for a while until CO2 is no longer released and the solvent is neutral.
- Wash again with brine, to a clear solvent (backlight will be visible)

The brine also dries the solvent a little bit.

That's it, two relatively quick washes. Gonna see if this EA gives the usual product in the next couple weeks. If it does, this would be a simplification to the washing step.
πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š Mescaline CIELO TEK πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š
πŸ’šπŸŒ³πŸ’šDMT salt e-juice HIELO TEKπŸ’šπŸŒ³πŸ’š
πŸ’šπŸƒπŸ’š Salvinorin Chilled Acetone with IPA and Naphtha re-X TEKπŸ’šπŸƒπŸ’š
 
merkin
#1416 Posted : 4/1/2023 7:05:55 AM

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Loveall wrote:
One more βœ¨πŸŒ΅πŸ”¬, this one grew from water evaporation of dissolved product. Previous post above was straight from the TEK.


Wow 😍 that is one beautiful chonky crystal there, Loveall! Most inspiring, gotta try getting me one of those 😎
 
downwardsfromzero
#1417 Posted : 4/1/2023 4:03:31 PM

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Orion wrote:
Loveall wrote:
Trimescaline forms at higher pH levels, FYI.


Yes I know. Yet it formed at an acidic PH and gave goo despite having no excess water in the solvent. I'm just thinking out loud.

If I have understood correctly, you can recrystalize monomescaline citrate by disssolving in water and evaporating it as has been mentioned in this thread. But for me this just returns goo, leading me to wonder if this is monomescaline or trimescaline. But the PH should have only allowed for monomescaline citrate to form, as it formed at an acidic PH, not alkaline. Is that not right ?

None of this is vital if the product is active. Adding extra fresh EA also did not make it crystalize. So I've crossed every box for goo.

Remember this was a conversion from Pure mesc HCL, not a direct extraction from cactus. This is the result, which is curious but surely worth noting, if for nothing other than a reference?

In future I will post my results from actual cactus material instead and see how that goes. This is still an excellent tek.

Just a quick thought, chloride from the initial material may have carried over in sufficient quantity to mess with things. We need to check the solubility of calcium chloride in EA. Earlier experiments involving salt (NaCl) were scrapped after problems arose so my hunch is that chloride should be avoided with EA.




β€œThere is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Loveall
#1418 Posted : 4/3/2023 8:51:55 PM

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Loveall wrote:
Been working on the EA washes. Trying to make it more lazy/easy.

The issue is that the EA is cloudy after the sodium carbonate wash. The freeze/filter clarifies it but is a bunch of work and uses EA as some is cought int the ice xtals. Over time this can add up and would be good to delay having to go to the hardware store for a $25 gallon of solvent.

Tested a bunch of combos. Looks like a brine wash clarifies the EA πŸ˜ŠπŸ™

I'm testing this lazy combo next, looks very promising:

- Wash used EA with 10% sodium carbonate solution (note: sodium citrate dissolves well in this, not sure why/how endlessness has issues). Solvent will be mildly cloudy (back light won't shine through). It is important to shake for a while until CO2 is no longer released and the solvent is neutral.
- Wash again with brine, to a clear solvent (backlight will be visible)

The brine also dries the solvent a little bit.

That's it, two relatively quick washes. Gonna see if this EA gives the usual product in the next couple weeks. If it does, this would be a simplification to the washing step.


Here is a side by side picture of how well the brine clarifies the EA (left) vs a plain water wash (right). The water wash retains the cloudiness from the washing soda wash/neutralization.
Loveall attached the following image(s):
IMG_20230403_152724617_HDR.jpg (1,050kb) downloaded 61 time(s).
πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š Mescaline CIELO TEK πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š
πŸ’šπŸŒ³πŸ’šDMT salt e-juice HIELO TEKπŸ’šπŸŒ³πŸ’š
πŸ’šπŸƒπŸ’š Salvinorin Chilled Acetone with IPA and Naphtha re-X TEKπŸ’šπŸƒπŸ’š
 
Toshido
#1419 Posted : 4/4/2023 1:59:26 AM

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Loveall wrote:
While excess water can be an issue when squeezing the French press too hard while pouring out the pulls, I had an interesting result on my last two extractions.

I remembered Sakkadelik's suggestion to squeeze rue seeds. So before pouring out the solvent I squeezed the paste in the french press twice, as hard as I could. Then, I let it rest for a minute before pouring it off.

Sequence was:

-Stir for a minute
-Sqeeeze hard
-Stir for a minute
-Sqeeeze hard
-Stir to loosen only
-Wait one minute
-Pour out with minimal pressure

I got even less xtals in my second jar than what I usually get (more mescaline was in the first jar). The idea is that squeezing the paste forces solvent in/out of the plant matrix making the pulls more efficient (as Sakkadelic reported for Harmalas in rue seeds). By resting for a minute the disturbed water seems to go back into the paste and not end up in the extract as a large layer (just a few ml as usual). I've done this process twice and it seems like a slight improvement to the current TEK.

Also, it looks like the EA wash can be made even more lazy with more solvent recovered. Currently testing this alternative:

- 1/3 Volume with 10% sodium carbonate
- The EA can be cloudy at this point, presumably from insoluble sodium citrate in the EA. However if that is the source of cloudiness, I don't understand why it doesn't go into the 10% sodium carbonate water? Does sodium citrate become insoluble in 10% sodium carbonate solution??? This is testable of course.
- Rest in fridge until not cloudy (a few days). A fine layer of sodium citrate will form at the bottom.

Another idea for the washes is to reduce the % of sodium carbonate (say 5%) so that the sodium citrate is immediately soluble and we get clear washed EA right away, making the process even simpler.

Just some thoughts on how to improve the TEK a little bit more. Cheers.


I've actually never used a french press but I have one now and am going to be trying the CIELO soon. Are you saying you mix the EA into the lime powder paste, then put the piece of the french press on and slowly lower it down to squeeze the paste to the bottom, and then you lift it back up to stir some more? Then repeat one or two times before decanting the EA mixture into a the mason jar?

I'm just trying to visualize it, I'll be doing my own pictorial/video on it soon.
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#1420 Posted : 4/4/2023 4:19:38 AM

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Yes, that's it.
πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š Mescaline CIELO TEK πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š
πŸ’šπŸŒ³πŸ’šDMT salt e-juice HIELO TEKπŸ’šπŸŒ³πŸ’š
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