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Changa query following Q21Q21 tek 1 Options
 
Grava4
#1 Posted : 9/12/2020 10:28:29 PM
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Following Tek 1 of Q21Q21's Vinegar/Lime A/B Extraction Tek and having concentrated the vinegar containing the DMT down to a dense liquid "tincture", it then advises that one way to smoke the DMT is to 'Simply put a number of drops of tincture for a single dose of DMT on your smoking material and let it dry for a few hours before smoking.

Smoking materials:

Neutral Herb (Mullien, Peppermint)

Maoi Containing Herb (Caapi, Passionflower)'


Now if keen to go down the Changa route, but with the DMT in liquid form rather than freebase due to the method of extraction being as above, does this then cut out need to dissolve the DMT in a solvent? Would mixing the liquid from a tincture with say 50% Passionflower / 50% Blue Lotus be considered as Changa?

Having had a good look on the forum, I wasn't able to locate any mention of this. I was wondering if the process of the leaf mix being fully soaked in the solvent and then dried for several days, creates a product which is better and less harsh to smoke than one where the liquid is dropped on the herb mix and smoked a few hours later?

 

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q21q21
#2 Posted : 9/13/2020 4:31:40 PM

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Hey Grava4,

I don't have much experience with changa/enhanced herb because I only smoke DMT (not weed or tobacco) and I find it harsh and bad tasting. That is the reason for very little info on the subject. That and vinegar tinctures being incredibly unpopular cause everyone loves pretty crystals, lol.

Anyway, I'd be happy to collaborate with you to find some answers to these questions and add it to the tek.

I can answer what I know already:

The BLAB method with DMT-containting-vinegar if I remember correctly is to evaporate the vinegar to red acetate goo then mix with sodium carbonate and dissolve in acetone/IPA or something. This is a chemical reaction and risks large yield loss.

Creating a tincture from vinegar allows dosing by drops. 2 drops of tincture takes about 3-4 hours to evaporate on metal scrubbers at room temperature, I would assume it would be similar or slightly greater on herb. At 15mg per drop I use this to make single breakthrough dosages. You could do this and store your given herb on individual baggies

I'd adise a little caution however my stability tests are still in progress. I wouldn't recommend doing anything in bulk more than 2 weeks in advance. It took 2 months to get a large loss in potency in out-of-tincture DMT acetate in my most recent test, tincture keeps indefinitely though.

With that I advise against doing anything bulk in change like dumping the whole tincture on a bunch of herb for grab-and-go dosing.


I've never noticed a harsh smoke with acetates. My girlfriend recently tried it for the first time and she's never smoked anything at all and out of a bong did it without coughing. The herb itself is far harsher than DMT-acetate from drops of evaporated tincture

As for passionflower/ blue lotus, you'd have to talk to some changa experts on that, I've read both are soft-maoi's unlike caapi or syrian rue so I'm not sure on that one.

Anyway it's late, hope my rambling helped in some way. Let me know if you have any questions, I usually pop on the nexus every week or so these days.
Q21Q21's Tek: A comprehensive guide to extracting DMT
The 2 teks use non-toxic lime and vinegar and Tek 1: d-Limonene or Xylene or Tek 2: Naptha to produce very quick high yields with the greatest of ease.

I am almost never on this site anymore so I will likely not answer PMs

 
monomind
#3 Posted : 9/13/2020 6:44:00 PM

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I will be happy to join this conversation since I am on this exact path of vinegar pulls and changa Smile

q21q21, may i ask you a question:

Why don't you evaporate the vinegar till you get a viscous red goo and then dissolve it in ethanol thus achieving an ethanol tincture ? Its easy to do and the advantage would be a much faster evaporation of the tincture before vaping it and the ability to evaporate it onto leaf in order to create changa.

Grava4, BTW, if you want to make changa just infuse your leaf with harmala before soaking it with the spice.

Thumbs up


 
q21q21
#4 Posted : 9/13/2020 11:45:33 PM

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That's actually a good idea. 95% of the tek after pulling with limonene is a solo endeavour so I clearly could benefit from some collaborative ideas. I made a thread asked for things to add as I was updating it but it fell on deaf ears. (even though the tek got 24,000 views during that time, lol)

Essentially I haven't tried it cause high proof drinkable ethanol is hard to get in Canada. You can get IPA and denatured stuff but I'm scared of additives. I'm abroad right now so I think I can get it pretty easily, it would be nice to get something that is much more volatile to evaporate for dosage. It'll be a good test.
Q21Q21's Tek: A comprehensive guide to extracting DMT
The 2 teks use non-toxic lime and vinegar and Tek 1: d-Limonene or Xylene or Tek 2: Naptha to produce very quick high yields with the greatest of ease.

I am almost never on this site anymore so I will likely not answer PMs

 
Grava4
#5 Posted : 9/14/2020 9:27:07 PM
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Thanks for the helpful replies and information.

I'd not found smoking changa through a wooden pipe particularly harsh before so had hoped that some dried herbs with drops via this the q21q21 tek would do the trick. But I'm aware that smoking herbs through a pipe on their own can be pretty tough thing to smoke and keep in. If any one has any further suggestions that would be interesting to hear.

It is a surprise to hear not more people consider going the vinegar tincture way, given it is an easy way to avoid working with both Naphtha and Lye.

 
CivilZombie
#6 Posted : 9/15/2020 10:49:56 AM

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Hey guys, I posted these questions in the extraction help thread but I guess people just aren't too familiar with the vinegar teks.

But since the man himself is in the conversation I'm taking th liberty (hope that's OK) of reproducing my questions here: In the tek you mention that we should drop a couple of tincture drops onto some leaves then let it dry for several hours: would I have to first heat up the tincture to make sure no vinegar is present (if i understand correctly, vinegar's boiling point is 118 celsius, so letting it sit won't evap the vinegar.)

From this question comes the next one: If I heat up the tinctue to evap the vinegar, the end product seems to be of a gooey consistency: in order to infuse some leaves with this goo, could I place the leaves and goo in a shot glass with some ethanol and then let it evap and dry (á la enhanced leaf?).

EDIT: From what monomind wrote, I take we had the same idea Big grin So, I take it, the acetate can dissolve in IPA/Ethanol/Acetone? And the remaining herb after the ethanol has evaporated would be radily smokable?

 
q21q21
#7 Posted : 9/15/2020 1:10:45 PM

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Hey all,

I just got some 95% ethanol and did a couple tests. Let me list them with some possible interpretations.

1: 300mg worth of vinegar tincture was evaporated under heat until it no longer smelled of vinegar. A very thick goop was left. The goop was only sparingly soluble in the 95% ethanol, it took roughly 3x the liquid to dissolve most of goop which could easily dissolve in vinegar.

Interpretation: 70% ethanol or even vodka might be better for dissolving/making tincture of DMT-acetate salts.

2: 2 drops of the resultant liquid was dropped onto a charred stainless steel scrubber ball then heated with a feathered jet lighter flame. PLUMES of DMT smoke exuded from the ball nearly immediately.

Interpretation: For both herb and other smoking mediums, an ethanol-tincture could evaporate quickly enough for direct dose application.


You guys can try some experiments with enhanced leaf. It would be night to hear your results too.

As for CivilZombie

I am no expert, specifically on the health aspects of working with and smoking products based on vinegar and DMT-acetate. But with that in mind I can share my thoughts.

Leaving DMT in vinegar to evaporate does not seem to leave behind any vinegar. Your reasoning that since vinegar's boiling point is 118C that it is still left over is like saying since rubbing alcohol's boiling point is 82.5C that it will never evaporate in a 30C room, which is demonstrably untrue. Boiling point doesn't mean things don't EVAPORATE, it is their boiling point when the VAPORIZE and boil.
So anything with the tincture dropped on after a few hours is bone dry and doesn't not smell at all of vinegar. It just smells of DMT-acetate which at least to me doesn't smell or taste of vinegar when smoked or sniffed.

As for the goo-step. I would hand that one over to people more experience with enhanced leaf. The only thing I can add is from the experiment above: DMT-acetate is only sparingly soluble in 95% ethanol, so probably don't use that.
Q21Q21's Tek: A comprehensive guide to extracting DMT
The 2 teks use non-toxic lime and vinegar and Tek 1: d-Limonene or Xylene or Tek 2: Naptha to produce very quick high yields with the greatest of ease.

I am almost never on this site anymore so I will likely not answer PMs

 
monomind
#8 Posted : 9/15/2020 2:01:07 PM

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Hey q21q21,

X used very warm ethanol ( small beaker on a coffee warmer ) and stirred persistently: The goo fully dissolved into minimal amount of 95% drinking ethanol. I don't think 3X of liquid, as in your experiment, is a big deal but you can get away with less following the method above imo.
Seems to me that using vodka (= ethanol+water ) will entail again longer evaporation time Confused

Other than that the plan is to fill a dropper bottle with the ethanol tincture and keep it in the freezer...

When some of the ethanol tincture was added to leaf material and left to dry, 100mg of leaf now weighted 150mg which means there was 50mg worth of goo on the leaf. It smoked like any other enhanced leaf.

The only issue is figuring out potency of the goo. It felt that mg for mg, the goo was much weaker than fb powder so i suspect quite a lot of it is other stuff from the mimosa.
Do you know if vinegar will also pull oils and other stuff from the d-limonene ?


CivilZombie: you can make changa by soaking leaf in the goo itself, there are few threads here where ppls describe doing exactly that.
IMO, however, dissolving in ethanol ( or acetone of IPA ) first, makes for something which is much easier to work with and to measure.



 
q21q21
#9 Posted : 9/15/2020 11:42:26 PM

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Hey monomind.

I used quite hot ethanol, probably 60-70C as the glass dish was nearly too hot to touch. I made sure to evaporate 100% of the water off with heat, maybe gentle evaporation might produce a more soluble product.

Also I've seen that re-dissolving DMT-acetate with vinegar is often much more difficult to get a super strong tincture compared to dissolving in an excess then concentrating. I still have everything ready for another test. Probably will do one after work today.

As for the potency, I admit that I haven't smoked white freebase in ages. My last extraction was 100% limonene.
Given an acetate molecule is ~60g/mol and DMT is ~180g/mol, we would expect it to be about 75% as potent.
In my tests, I would guess that also evaporated-goo is quite hygroscopic at times. If I evaporate DMT-acetate down to a thick goop (like tree sap, does not flow at all) then leave it out for a while it will turn into something much thinner (like honey)
With that, it is possible that your method of dosing could be around 50% as potent as freebase. I label my tinctures based on measuring sap-like DMT-acetate which I think is about 75% as potent as freebase but you could always just label them with free-base-equivilance.
Q21Q21's Tek: A comprehensive guide to extracting DMT
The 2 teks use non-toxic lime and vinegar and Tek 1: d-Limonene or Xylene or Tek 2: Naptha to produce very quick high yields with the greatest of ease.

I am almost never on this site anymore so I will likely not answer PMs

 
CivilZombie
#10 Posted : 9/16/2020 9:17:31 AM

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q21q21 wrote:
Your reasoning that since vinegar's boiling point is 118C that it is still left over is like saying since rubbing alcohol's boiling point is 82.5C that it will never evaporate in a 30C room, which is demonstrably untrue. Boiling point doesn't mean things don't EVAPORATE, it is their boiling point when the VAPORIZE and boil.


Got it, thanks a lot Very happy

@Monomind: Thanks for the info on enhancing leaf, definitely will give this a try when I get the chance!

EDIT: Just a quick question I thought of reading your posts Q21Q21, I take it you personally heat the tincture to faster evap the vinegar? If so, should one pay attention to the temperature in order to not waste spice?
 
q21q21
#11 Posted : 9/17/2020 1:14:37 PM

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Hey all,

Update on a couple tests:

First is UV stability test. Results were sadly not what I wanted them to be, but science is as much about proving your hypothesis wrong as it is about proving it right.

8 stainless steel mesh balls which had 2 drop of tincture containing 20mg of DMT-acetate dropped on them then were left for 8 hours to dry.
After dried 4 were placed in a transparent container and 4 in a porcelain container and sealed. Both containers were placed on a north-facing windowsill.

After 1 week one ball from the transparent container was smoked and the effects were 90-100% of one smoked after 8 hours of drying only or the same 20mg of tincture heated and scraped up.

After 2 weeks one ball from the transparent counter was smoked and the effects were 25-35% of the effects of a week prior. After 30 minutes one from the porcelain container was smoked and the effects were slightly stronger maybe 35-40% of a week prior.

Not wanting to smoke all of them, but deciding any loss of potency means both storage methods are not useful long term and the experiment need not go on any longer, a visual test was done on the remaining balls.

The amount of smoke coming off each ball was observed and consistently the ones in the porcelain gave off 25-40% more smoke than the ones in the transparent container.
The same 20mg was dropped and immediately vaporized off a ball to produce a minumum of 250% the smoke of any of the UV-test balls.

Interpretation:
UV does seem to be a small factor in DMT-acetate's degradation, but it is not the main one. It takes between between 1 and 2 weeks for significant degradation in this experiment. The setting included:
DMT-acetate on charred stainless steel balls
DMT-acetate subjected to a humid climate with highs of 32C and average of 28-30C

Follow up experiments:
DMT-acetate on glass then scraped up after 2 weeks in the same conditions to eliminate the stainless steel variable
The same 20mg on stainless in the refrigerator and freezer for 2 weeks to eliminate the heat variable.
I don't have any desiccant, maybe I could just put one in a container of rice or something to isolate the humidity variable.


The ethanol solubility test:
I compared the solubility of DMT-acetate in 95% ethanol and vinegar somewhat qualitatively.

300mg of DMT-acetate was dissolved in about 20ml of 95% ethanol which was heated from below until the color of the tincture closely matched a 15mg/drop vinegar tincture.
Although the tincture did seem relatively clear, there was a large amount of residue on the glass dish which was used for the evaporation.
The same test was done but with about 50% vinegar and 50% water. There was maybe 10% the residue as the ethanol tincture and naturally a noticeable amount more liquid.

Interpretation:
Without a formal test it is hard to be sure, but I estimate 95% ethanol may only dissolve 5-7mg per drop reliably (maybe less due to ethanol having smaller drops than vinegar or water) compared to 15mg per drop being very easy to achieve with vinegar.

This isn't a real issue in my mind though. An ethanol tincture could evaporated in minutes or even be directly applied then smoked on herb or metal mesh. A 5mg per drop tincture would be very convenient for dosing in either case, giving more accurate dose control as well. (I have 2 small 10mg/drop and 12.5mg/drop tinctures along with my big 15mg/drop tincture that I combine to make my custom doses)

I still have the 300mg test in the vinegar tincture. I think next I'll try a 70% ethanol test to see if it create a better tincture with a balance of solubility and quick evaporation.


@CivilZombie
To answer your question: smoke = too hot. It is not hard to tell the difference between steam and smoke because steam is whispy and translucent while smoke is dense and white.

I personally much prefer to do the slow method, the reason is that scraping up spice usually loses about 4-6mg and although you could technically just not clean the surface to make that 4-6mg remain for the next scraping, I have accidentally went much further than I wanted through scraping errors.
The drop-on method is SUPER consistent with no loss.

I recently though of a mid-point between them, although it is better for candle rather than a lighter cause it requires a lot of heat. I put a metal ball on a big spoon and then I drop my tincture dose on the ball then heat the spoon from below. It doesn't spatter and if it does smoke, removing the flame makes it nearly immediately stop. After the spoon is pretty hot I just leave it for about 2 minutes and it's bone dry.

It is technically possible to vape the tincture directly off a ball when wet, but you'll be vaping a few drops of vinegar too which isn't great (I only did it once, didn't taste vinegar though). Maybe evaporating to a goo then adding water to dilute the vinegar to nearly nothing would make a good instant-dosing tincture similar to the ethanol one.



Q21Q21's Tek: A comprehensive guide to extracting DMT
The 2 teks use non-toxic lime and vinegar and Tek 1: d-Limonene or Xylene or Tek 2: Naptha to produce very quick high yields with the greatest of ease.

I am almost never on this site anymore so I will likely not answer PMs

 
monomind
#12 Posted : 9/20/2020 10:32:04 AM

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Hi q21q21,

Thanks for sharing your findings. Here is another thought regarding solubility: Few threads on the nexus mention that heating acetate will convert it to freebase. Freebase is very easily soluble in ethanol. So one could heat to goo to say 100 Celsius for a while and then dissolve it in the ethanol.
If it indeed converted to freebase, it should be very easy to dissolve now in a minimal amount of ethanol.
I plan to experiment with that but unfortunately I have other issues to solve first as the goo here is far too heavy than what it should have been ( I suspect it is due to plant oils travelling to the vinegar ) and I want to find a way to clean it first before proceeding.

Cheers

Edit: q21q21, it was actually you who wrote about freebasing of acetate via heat... so the above is probably not adding much Confused
 
q21q21
#13 Posted : 9/20/2020 3:29:14 PM

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@monomind

Haha, I was thinking that sounded familiar.

You know I was going to write about not being sure about whether that was really true, but I did a quick experiment that I believe proves it.

Experiment "Acetate ==> freebase?"

I just took 1 drop of tincture and evaporated it at about 40C and with a fan. 1 drop of water easily dissolved the goo.
Then I evaporated it until all the liquid was gone and it was more like thick tree sap than honey-goo and added 1 drop of water.... not soluble. Then 1 drop of vinegar was added and it dissolved again.

Interpretation:
This strongly suggests that it is being converted into freebase.

To add to that, since the until-its-dry method is used in my solubility experiments then it seems that vinegar-salted DMT from D-limonene when converted to freebase is not incredibly soluble in 95% ethanol like freebase is (Is it? I've personally never worked with ethanol and white DMT together)

I have some promising experiments with 70% ethanol, but I need to test the effects of smoking it before I write it up.

Edit:
I just did a couple more tests. I'm going to sleep soon so I'll just summarize the results and write-up the rest later.

The conversion from acetates to freebase is quick and delicate. I over-shot evaporating with acetates as goal several times and ended up with freebase.

True DMT-acetate is significantly less soluble in 70% ethanol and 95% ethanol than freebases from heating acetates to 100C

95% ethanol can hold 6-7mg per drop of this freebase from 1 experiment
70% ethanol can hold ~13mg per drop of this freebase from 1 experiment, possibly slightly more.

Q21Q21's Tek: A comprehensive guide to extracting DMT
The 2 teks use non-toxic lime and vinegar and Tek 1: d-Limonene or Xylene or Tek 2: Naptha to produce very quick high yields with the greatest of ease.

I am almost never on this site anymore so I will likely not answer PMs

 
downwardsfromzero
#14 Posted : 9/21/2020 8:59:41 AM

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q21q21 wrote:
Hey all,

Update on a couple tests:

First is UV stability test. Results were sadly not what I wanted them to be, but science is as much about proving your hypothesis wrong as it is about proving it right.

8 stainless steel mesh balls which had 2 drop of tincture containing 20mg of DMT-acetate dropped on them then were left for 8 hours to dry.
After dried 4 were placed in a transparent container and 4 in a porcelain container and sealed. Both containers were placed on a north-facing windowsill.

After 1 week one ball from the transparent container was smoked and the effects were 90-100% of one smoked after 8 hours of drying only or the same 20mg of tincture heated and scraped up.

After 2 weeks one ball from the transparent counter was smoked and the effects were 25-35% of the effects of a week prior. After 30 minutes one from the porcelain container was smoked and the effects were slightly stronger maybe 35-40% of a week prior.

Not wanting to smoke all of them, but deciding any loss of potency means both storage methods are not useful long term and the experiment need not go on any longer, a visual test was done on the remaining balls.

The amount of smoke coming off each ball was observed and consistently the ones in the porcelain gave off 25-40% more smoke than the ones in the transparent container.
The same 20mg was dropped and immediately vaporized off a ball to produce a minumum of 250% the smoke of any of the UV-test balls.

Interpretation:
UV does seem to be a small factor in DMT-acetate's degradation, but it is not the main one. It takes between between 1 and 2 weeks for significant degradation in this experiment. The setting included:
DMT-acetate on charred stainless steel balls
DMT-acetate subjected to a humid climate with highs of 32C and average of 28-30C

[...]

I'm wondering if the DMT simply evaporates/sublimes onto the walls of the container. To control for this one would wash the container with a suitable solvent, then allow the solvent evaporate in a pre-weighed vessel, etc.

It might not seem likely for the acetate to be volatile but the freebase to acetate process indicates otherwise, plus we are talking about longer time scales here.
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
q21q21
#15 Posted : 9/21/2020 11:31:03 AM

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@downwardsfromzero

That's a good theory, 20mg could coat a container with only a tiny haze if anything, not too noticeable.
One useful note is that in my initial stability test I made both evaporated and heated tincture doses and the degradation was high in both of them. Variations in degradation did not appear related to whether they were evaporated or heated.
This may suggest that a lengthy evaporation may produce freebase like heating seems to.
***just started a 15mg evaporating on glass to test this, I'll see if it no longer dissolves in water tomorrow.***
Test complete, water no longer dissolved the DMT after ~20 hours. Vinegar immediately made the solution transparent.

I mentioned additional tests - isolating for heat, humidity and contact with metal, if I were to guess which one is most likely to be successful it would be the low heat one, but humidity might also carry bits of DMT around given long periods of time... hmmm.

I am preparing those 3 test today. I have 2 balls for each, one to test in 2 weeks, 1 for longer if there is no degradation. Will update then.

Anyway, my experiments on 70% ethanol and presumably freebase from evaporated DMT-acetate tincture:

About 5 very similar tests were done in the following way:

200-300 mg DMT in solution evaporated on a flat glass surface under heat until bubbling stopped and all liquid was gone.

--side note: if mostly evaporated, DMT acetate remains and is soluble in water and very sparingly soluble in both 95% and 70% ethanol. If it is full evaporated it is no longer soluble in water but is much more soluble in ethanol--

The resultant sap-like goo was dissolved in 5-10 drops of 70% ethanol.

5 drops of the tincture was evaporated with heat until the sap-like goo was achieved and weighed.

The maximum concentration I achieved was 13mg per drop.

I stop experimenting due to the residue working with so little liquid with so much DMT in it causing massive losses. But I am confident a tincture could be 15mg per drop or even a little more because the 13mg one was quite consistent and it wasn't hard to dissolve the goo into it at all.


Smoking test:
1 drop of the 13mg tincture was dropped onto a charred stainless mesh ball and then immediately smoked out of a bong and all the smoke was inhaled in 5-7 seconds in one toke. I was a little surprised with an urge to cough that I experienced until I felt the effects and it was a lower level breakthrough with lots of 3D visuals and a few quiet but present entities. That amount of DMT that quick is likely to make an urge to cough in my experience.

I don't know the health effects of smoking a drop or 2 of ethanol, but a 70% ethanol tincture could presumably be dropped and immediately smoke off of herb or something which is incredibly convenient.
Q21Q21's Tek: A comprehensive guide to extracting DMT
The 2 teks use non-toxic lime and vinegar and Tek 1: d-Limonene or Xylene or Tek 2: Naptha to produce very quick high yields with the greatest of ease.

I am almost never on this site anymore so I will likely not answer PMs

 
 
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