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Vaporization Temperature of DMT / 5-MeO-DMT / 5-OH-DMT / Harmalas / Salvinorin Options
 
Brennendes Wasser
#1 Posted : 6/27/2020 7:14:54 AM

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Still after years there is some confusion about the correct vaporization temperatures of some compounds and mostly rough ranges are given if people ask for some real numbers. There is even this super wrong number of 90 °C for boiling DMT around the internet and on wikipedia it is described as 160 °C at super low pressure. So as new methods of admninistration come up that can precisely control the temperature like E-Mesh gear and Vaporizers, getting to know the real vaporization temperatures of the most relevant compounds should be something to be finally done.

Now I got an IR-thermometer (Voltcraft IR 500 12S) and I played around with it by placing compounds on a hot-plate and measuring the temperature at which a certain phase transition took place. The accuracy is told to be +- 3 % above 100 °C. Still, as these numbers are not scientifically proof to be taken as the boiling temperature, they still are the correct temperature range to be used in any device that may precisely adjust to this temperature.

I just give a vaporization range, while the lower one being the first temperature where fumes are visible, but no real vaporization is starting. The later one marks the temperature at which no further vapor is formed, so the process stops here. Still in most cases, a residue is left. But this is not a contamination as I just used super pure compounds (cant confirm for Salvinorin for now). So it seems that upon too slow vaporization the lowest layers of molecules always decompose and probably form higher molecular, brown/black films. Therefore it should not be judged as an unpure compound just by the fact that it leaves a coloration even above its original vaporization temp.




DMT


There are at least 3 reported crystal structure modifications of DMT, coming in different crystal grids and thus different melting points. I just know the one that precipitates already at room temperature more yellow and the one that precipitates at lower temperatures fully white. Hence I believe the later one might be more crystaline as it takes longer and slower precipitation, so the melting point might also be higher.

Melting point

58 °C


Vaporization temperature

First fumes from 100 °C +
strong fumes from 160 °C +
No further vaporization from 190 °C

I think 175 °C is optimal for vaporization.



5-MeO-DMT


Coming in the next weeks





5-OH-DMT / Bufotenine


Amorph and crystaline Bufotenine was retrieved from this TEK. Melting point reported in literature is 145 °C, vaporization temperature on Wikipedia is 320 °C.
RoundAbout wrote:
Boiling point of 320°C is measured at 0.1 Torr, ref here.


Melting point (amorph)

108 °C


Melting point (crystaline)

108 °C


Both much lower than reported one, also both exactly melting at equal temperature, strange as the amorph should melt faster. In the NMR spectra a trace of Ethyl Acetate can be seen. But the Bufo was held at 100 °C for 10 minutes to evaporate any traces of EA, so there cant be any decrease by this solvent. Even if there would still be traces of EA, then the melting point would just be lowered by a few °C. Purity is 97 % + so there cant be any further contaminations responsible for this. Quite strange Confused But only strange if that 146 °C report is correct.

Vaporization temperature

First fumes from 160 °C +
Bufotenine turning brown at 170 °C +
strong fumes from 190 °C +
No further vaporization from 230 °C, leaving a black residue

I think 210 °C is optimal for vaporization. Quite strange, its not much above DMT. But further turning up the temperature does not cause any more vaporization, just tar baking into the hot plate.



Harmala Alkaloids


Melting point

no melting point, directly sublimating


Vaporization temperature

First fumes from 180 °C +
Sublimation while forming small black clumps at 205 °C +
No further vaporization from 240 °C, tiny black residue

Interesting, I thought it would be ways above DMT. That means that vaporizers like the Crafty / Mighty can indeed also partioally vaporize Harmalas, it was always stated they could only be used for infused herb. Maybe in future I may test Harmin and Harmalin on their own, for now only the mixture. But they should not differ too much anyways.



Salvinorin A


Salvinorin extracted with this TEK. Final product is a slightly grey solid. Formed little crystals before scraping, but purity not verified so far. Melting Point in Literature is 240 °C (Gartz' book 'Salvia divinorum - Die Wahrsagesalbei' (2001)) and if I recall correctly the boiling temp is somewhere 500 - 700 °C - computed probably. I guess if it even came that close, if would have been destroyed in an oxygen atmosphere way before.

Melting point

no melting point, directly sublimating


Vaporization temperature


First fumes from 190 °C, Salvinorin turning brown
No further vaporization from 270 °C, leaving a black residue

A vaporizer at 250 °C would easily vaporize 1 mg of this in a few seconds.

So in case that I didnt turn out with a mixture of Salvinorin and any other crap, then this might indicate that Salvinorin can be indeed vaped at low temperatures. Quite good, so combustion methods dont seem to be the only way ...


Not sure if there are more to add, I guess these are the only ones that one may stumble upon from time to time to ingest them via inhalation.
Check the

BIG Analysis on DMT !

Lots of interesting and possibly new stuff unraveled ;o
 

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potnoble
#2 Posted : 6/27/2020 8:34:52 AM

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Thanks alot man!!

There is so much misleading information on the internet. Before i found the nexus i had
alot of problems not only with extractions but also with the administration of this
wonderful substance.

Have a gud one Thumbs up
 
endlessness
#3 Posted : 6/27/2020 9:31:42 AM

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Excellent information, brother, thanks s lot again for sharing the results of your experiments
 
Eaglepath
#4 Posted : 6/27/2020 9:43:14 AM

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So this means that you dont need to be shy on the heat when cooking yes? Smile
"Too cute to live, too cozy to die" - Eaglepath
 
Brennendes Wasser
#5 Posted : 6/28/2020 12:41:23 AM

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You mean we could all just heat our soup like hell as DMT will vaporize only at 150 °C + ?

Well thats indeed the case! But I that is not just directly because of that higher boiling temp. Let's say you have hydrochloric acid, which is HCl in water. And HCl normally is a gas, but even when boiling the water it will stay in solution. Being dissolved in another liquid will make old traits vanish and I am sure you could dissolve DMT in DMSO and heat it to 160 °C and still all the DMT will remain in solution.

So this is not directly a reason that you can boil any soup just like you want Very happy But in acidic soups DMT will form the salt anyways, so it would then even vaporize at 300 °C + or even higher and therefore there is no chance to ever evaporate it when cooking.

Regardless of a temperature where you boil your soup, one should definetly never be careless and stop watching your pot, as a heating plate which keeps a soup on a 90 °C boil will be more than 150 °C itself. Gonna find it out soon with that IR Thermometer Big grin . And if you dont take care and your water would vaporize, then the remaining solids will quickly reach 150 °C (or whatever it may be). This way you will still be able to either destroy or loose your DMT. So always keep an eye on your stuff, even if you know it wont vaporize in water Thumbs up
Check the

BIG Analysis on DMT !

Lots of interesting and possibly new stuff unraveled ;o
 
Eaglepath
#6 Posted : 6/28/2020 7:24:36 AM

I rather root my values in my own hallucinations than in society´s neurotic illusions..


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No sorry I should have been more clear. I meant specifically cooking Ayahuasca.. and over open fire.. sometimes the boil becomes very violent and seems much hotter than it ever become on the stove.. And many times I've stood there scratching my head thinking: I wonder if the little alkaloids are fineNeutral

But thanks for your elaborate answer anywaySmile
"Too cute to live, too cozy to die" - Eaglepath
 
Propello
#7 Posted : 6/28/2020 10:50:33 AM

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Thanks for excellent information once more BW!

I measured the temp with the e-mesh, and no burnt flavor at 210 C, but the temperature might be a bit lower while inhaling, as the mesh is cooled by the passing air.

For a max effective breakthrough w dmt crystal, i suppose the optimal temperature is just below the point where it burns, max vaporisation to get it all in one hit. I suspect this is closer to 210 C in my experience. I have also seen reports from volcano users claiming the vapor get harsh at 210+ C. I would love to know a more precise optimal range, as I don't have hard scientific evidence.

I am surprised by the harmala temperature data. I thought it was a lot higher. This is good news.

Thanks for your efforts BW.
 
endlessness
#8 Posted : 6/28/2020 2:28:02 PM

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I've added the info in this thread to the Psychedelic Compounds Chemical and Physical Properties Wiki

I've also added the bufotenine solubility data from your other great thread

One question, are the harmalas from this vaporization data mixed? Were you able to analyse them in any way to see if they were mostly harmine, harmaline or a mix?

Keep up the good work
 
Brennendes Wasser
#9 Posted : 6/28/2020 4:26:45 PM

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Yo these are both Harmaline and Harmine, but I dont have any clue at what ratio. I never got them to dissolve in anything ... that's why I never did NMR / Chromatography with them Sad

You may also add some new stuff to this page, once I am done tomorrow. Right now I am testing the solubility of Bufotenine in Xylene, which was also regarded as a potential substance to be used for extraction / recrystalizatoin. And I tested it with Limonene - both will be written in that Bufo TEK tomorrow I guess. I should wait a little bit for freeze-precipitation to really know the how much will crash out ultimately ... If the ratio of boiling Xylene / Freezer is quite good, that would be a possible alternative for the TEK.

I never wanted to do the THH exploration so I never did any separation of Harmalas. Maybe I could do that in future and check if their properties differ much in any way when heated.
Check the

BIG Analysis on DMT !

Lots of interesting and possibly new stuff unraveled ;o
 
endlessness
#10 Posted : 6/28/2020 4:55:13 PM

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For analysis you can dissolve harmalas in methanol.

I once tried boiling xylene to recrystallize bufotenine, can't remember the results TBH since it was so many years ago, im pretty sure I didnt get it to crystallize, but anyways boiling xylene is such a horrible idea lol.. I did it in a hot plate outside with a mask on and it still smelled nasty, not recommended.

btw regarding salvinorin a, I participated in a research in a hospital where I vapped some and then had my brain scanned with SPECT.. So indeed it was perfectly vaporized with simply some torch lighter and a glass beaker type of set up, not much different than DMT vaporization. So I think your experimental observations are correct, and the other published data of super high boiling point are wrong.
 
Brennendes Wasser
#11 Posted : 6/29/2020 12:44:08 AM

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Quote:
For analysis you can dissolve harmalas in methanol.


Ooooh well ... years ago I tried to make Changa with Methanol as I thought this would be the last hope to get Harmalas dissolved. But even boiling Methanol did not dissolve any observable amount. Therefore I disregarded Methanol at all, when handling Harmalas. But just for an analysis I guess even a low solubility would be enough ...
I still dont know why even boiling Methanol could not induce a mediocre solubility, Bluemagic and others report that it works really well ...

That Salvinorin study sounds interesting Oô Quite cool that there are still some people to conduct serious experiments with psychedelics. They are so mysterious to mankind, hopefully in the future we can unravel their secrets in a scientific way. But maybe this will destroy their magic? Who knows Rolling eyes

Also I have that solubility data for Xylene and Limonene now on that other thread. You could also post it on that wiki site, then there should be all solvents that one may use with a certain reason with Bufotenine. Thumbs up
Check the

BIG Analysis on DMT !

Lots of interesting and possibly new stuff unraveled ;o
 
monomind
#12 Posted : 6/29/2020 11:31:56 AM

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Brennendes Wasser wrote:

Ooooh well ... years ago I tried to make Changa with Methanol as I thought this would be the last hope to get Harmalas dissolved. But even boiling Methanol did not dissolve any observable amount. Therefore I disregarded Methanol at all, when handling Harmalas. But just for an analysis I guess even a low solubility would be enough ...
I still dont know why even boiling Methanol could not induce a mediocre solubility, Bluemagic and others report that it works really well ...

A bit off topic, but IME 1g of harmine will dissolve completely in around 65ml ( might be possible with less but I didn't try) of boiling ethanol.
Important: You need a smooth vessel for that ( i.e. use a lab grade beaker, not a mason jar) as the harmalas will need a very little excuse in terms of asymmetry in order to crash out.
 
Eaglepath
#13 Posted : 6/29/2020 1:08:46 PM

I rather root my values in my own hallucinations than in society´s neurotic illusions..


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Again: Then there is never any need for worries that any alkaloids gets destroyed no matter how high heat you use when cooking?
"Too cute to live, too cozy to die" - Eaglepath
 
endlessness
#14 Posted : 6/29/2020 2:25:07 PM

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No, Eaglepath, the water will cap the temperature at 100c, which is not enough to destroy nor vaporize DMT. More vigorous boiling = more water evaporating, but not the DMT.
 
Brennendes Wasser
#15 Posted : 6/29/2020 3:11:10 PM

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I dont know much about Aya, but I think Shamans tend to cook their brews on open fire even for days.

There can just be 1 limitation:

If you have much plant material and big and small particle size, then it may form a big layer on the ground of the container. This one may densify and thus there may not be enough water inbetween to penetrate this paste. The container itself will definetly become hotter than 100 °C. So if you create such a barrier on the bottom of a container, then the plant material MAY get hotter than 100 °C by mostly touching the container surface and not being cooled by the water anymore. On top of that there may be water boiling within this dense package and cause excessive air bubbles, that may spill stuff over. This happened to me with other things, where I threw a lot of salt or whatever in a solution and it made the container ground to heat up insanely, which even caused a crack of the laboratory glass.

So always keep your brews well stirred, to avoid heat bottlenecks / accumulation.
Check the

BIG Analysis on DMT !

Lots of interesting and possibly new stuff unraveled ;o
 
Eaglepath
#16 Posted : 6/29/2020 4:16:30 PM

I rather root my values in my own hallucinations than in society´s neurotic illusions..


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Great.. thank you very much guys!
"Too cute to live, too cozy to die" - Eaglepath
 
RoundAbout
#17 Posted : 6/30/2020 9:19:01 PM

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This is great, thank you very much.

Brennendes Wasser wrote:
Amorph and crystaline Bufotenine was retrieved from this TEK. Melting point reported in literature is 145 °C, vaporization temperature on Wikipedia is 320 °C, but this is probably only computed.

Boiling point of 320°C is measured at 0.1 Torr, as I mentioned here: https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1056949#post1056949
 
downwardsfromzero
#18 Posted : 7/1/2020 1:01:38 AM

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Thanks for all your work!

Brennendes Wasser wrote:
[regarding bufotenine] Quite strange, its not much above DMT. But further turning up the temperature does not cause any more vaporization, just tar baking into the hot plate.
This makes me wonder about the hot plate material. A metallic surface might actually hasten the thermal decomposition of some compounds, such as phenolics like bufotenine.
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Brennendes Wasser
#19 Posted : 7/1/2020 2:09:22 PM

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RoundAbout wrote:
Boiling point of 320°C is measured at 0.1 Torr, as I mentioned here: https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1056949#post1056949


THXX, corrected it ;D

Quote:
This makes me wonder about the hot plate material. A metallic surface might actually hasten the thermal decomposition of some compounds, such as phenolics like bufotenine.


True, I wanted to measure these temperatures on a more inert surface, like Quartz-Glas, as Metals may be somehow catalytically active at elevated temps ... : /

But the only glass piece that I could use was too small to know if the focus of the IR-thermometer indeed measured the right spot. It was changing all the time and furthermore the thermometer itself heated up as I had to measure from the top downwards and then the manual tells that the retrieved temperatures are not correct anymore ... but when using a hot place I could measure in an angle from the side and avoid the device to heat up - not possible with my glass sadly. Confused
Check the

BIG Analysis on DMT !

Lots of interesting and possibly new stuff unraveled ;o
 
 
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