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What causes a wave to collapse into matter? Options
 
Jees
#1 Posted : 5/21/2020 5:34:27 PM

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In the double slit experiment, exactly which point of 'observation' triggers the wave to collapse?
This vid sums up the different ongoing views.

Most significant the finding that a human observation is not mandatory, if the data is shown to the universe but not to humans, the waves seem to collapse too.


 

Trippy glass for trippy people.
 
Eaglepath
#2 Posted : 5/21/2020 6:06:55 PM

I rather root my values in my own hallucinations than in society´s neurotic illusions..


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Quote:
exactly which point of 'observation' triggers the wave to collapse?


Usually things starts to crystalize at minute 5 after a big hit...Smile

Quote:
Most significant the finding that a human observation is not mandatory, if the data is shown to the universe but not to humans, the waves seem to collapse too.


Whats the difference?Smile As long as it is dualism something need to collapse..
"Too cute to live, too cozy to die" - Eaglepath
 
Jees
#3 Posted : 5/21/2020 6:45:41 PM

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Hello EP Wink ,

Eaglepath wrote:
...Whats the difference? As long as it is dualism something need to collapse.....
I posted the vid mostly for the explanation of what an 'observation that affect results' actually means, that there is confusion about that, at least I was confused about it and wanted to share. I thought it was all about the human brain activity (human consciousness) being the pivotal dynamic wave collapser, but that seems not necessarily the case.
 
dragonrider
#4 Posted : 5/21/2020 7:07:30 PM

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But are the atoms still interacting with the photons if the detector is switched off?
 
Jees
#5 Posted : 5/21/2020 7:26:41 PM

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dragonrider wrote:
But are the atoms still interacting with the photons if the detector is switched off?
In this vid, it is not explained how the detector works, if it emits photons when ON then it's an active device. If on the contrary it's purely a passive reader it would not change the photons-hitting-atoms conditions when ON vs OFF, the difference would be just yes-or-no data delivering.

These youtube vids leave us without details but probably on purpose for the easy going concept.
 
Loveall
#6 Posted : 5/21/2020 7:28:07 PM

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I don't think anyone knows the answer to the measurement problem in quantum mechanics.

Another way to phrase the question is: How is it possible to have a wave function collapse at all?

In the rules of QM, a collapse happens when a quantum wave interacts with a "classical system". The problem is that the classical system itself is really just a large quantum mechanic system, which is also fundamentally made up of its own (many) wave functions. So if our reality is just quantum waves interacting, how can any kind of true collapse arise from that? It should all just be wave interactions and we shouldn't have a "collapse" to particles. In other words, we shouldn't have a definite reality.

Yet here we are, Right? Big grin
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
Jees
#7 Posted : 5/21/2020 7:31:59 PM

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Loveall wrote:
I don't think anyone knows the answer to the measurement problem in quantum mechanics.

A big fundamental open question on physics is the measurement problem. Even without understanding "how" things collapse, another similar question is how is it possible to have a wave function collapse at all?

In the rules of QM, a collapase happens when there is an interaction with a classical system. The problem is that the classical system itself is really just a large quantum mechanic system which is also findamentally made up of its own (many) wave functions. So if our reality is just quantum waves interacting, how can any kind of true collapse arise from that? It should all just be wave interactions and we shouldn't have a "collapse" to particles. In other words, we shouldn't have a definite reality.

Yet here we are, Right? Big grin
You fit in the many words concept where there's never a collapse really, and where the material words is/are a side-branch of the unchanged wave function.
 
dragonrider
#8 Posted : 5/21/2020 9:07:44 PM

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Loveall wrote:
I don't think anyone knows the answer to the measurement problem in quantum mechanics.

Another way to phrase the question is: How is it possible to have a wave function collapse at all?

In the rules of QM, a collapse happens when a quantum wave interacts with a "classical system". The problem is that the classical system itself is really just a large quantum mechanic system, which is also fundamentally made up of its own (many) wave functions. So if our reality is just quantum waves interacting, how can any kind of true collapse arise from that? It should all just be wave interactions and we shouldn't have a "collapse" to particles. In other words, we shouldn't have a definite reality.

Yet here we are, Right? Big grin

Maybe game theory can answer that question. But instead of agents maximising gains, you could maybe see waves/particles as objects that maximise their probability.

So what i mean with that is that maybe there are nash equilibria in quantum mechanics as well.
If particles/waves interact with eachother, then there could be a situation where a particle has a certain probability of being in a particular state, given the influence it undergoes from another particle or other particles. And where this is mutual.
If that would be the case, then the situation would naturally stabilise itself. They enforce eachothers states.

So maybe it could be that two or more waves interact, and collapse eachother, just because they by pure coincidence, at the peak of the interaction have reached the highest probability to do this.

Maybe this is total nonsense though.
 
Ferrum
#9 Posted : 5/24/2020 5:16:52 PM

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Maybe it's a pooling effect. So like in chemical equilibrium interactions , like you know an addition or removal will drive the production of product or reactant s . If the wave is at equilibrium and a change is produced then perhaps it then moves to matter because of similar desires to be balanced .
 
Jees
#10 Posted : 5/24/2020 7:40:03 PM

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Thanks for the interest people, it is an unclear situation.
Uncertainty is key but this does not mean things can't be monitored, things do show up.
I was mostly interested in how human consciousness is paramount (or not) in the wave collapse.

This was the paper referred at in OP.
https://onlinelibrary.wi.../10.1002/andp.201100078

Maybe someone has already access to the pdf as per school or other means? That would be cool.
Curious to peep into it and then hope to understand what is said.
 
Loveall
#11 Posted : 5/24/2020 9:58:19 PM

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Jees wrote:
Thanks for the interest people, it is an unclear situation.
Uncertainty is key but this does not mean things can't be monitored, things do show up.
I was mostly interested in how human consciousness is paramount (or not) in the wave collapse.

This was the paper referred at in OP.
https://onlinelibrary.wi.../10.1002/andp.201100078

Maybe someone has already access to the pdf as per school or other means? That would be cool.
Curious to peep into it and then hope to understand what is said.


This was available on www.sci-hub.tw (enter doi).
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
Jees
#12 Posted : 5/25/2020 2:11:58 AM

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Loveall wrote:
This was available on www.sci-hub.tw (enter doi).
Great, thank you very much! Now to read and let sink in.


 
Eaglepath
#13 Posted : 5/25/2020 8:37:59 AM

I rather root my values in my own hallucinations than in society´s neurotic illusions..


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Loveall wrote:
I don't think anyone knows the answer to the measurement problem in quantum mechanics.

Another way to phrase the question is: How is it possible to have a wave function collapse at all?

In the rules of QM, a collapse happens when a quantum wave interacts with a "classical system". The problem is that the classical system itself is really just a large quantum mechanic system, which is also fundamentally made up of its own (many) wave functions. So if our reality is just quantum waves interacting, how can any kind of true collapse arise from that? It should all just be wave interactions and we shouldn't have a "collapse" to particles. In other words, we shouldn't have a definite reality.

Yet here we are, Right? Big grin


And here we have the definition of Maya and what she seems to do..Wink

"Too cute to live, too cozy to die" - Eaglepath
 
Eaglepath
#14 Posted : 5/25/2020 8:41:59 AM

I rather root my values in my own hallucinations than in society´s neurotic illusions..


Posts: 681
Joined: 08-Jul-2017
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Jees wrote:
Thanks for the interest people, it is an unclear situation.
Uncertainty is key but this does not mean things can't be monitored, things do show up.
I was mostly interested in how human consciousness is paramount (or not) in the wave collapse.

This was the paper referred at in OP.
https://onlinelibrary.wi.../10.1002/andp.201100078

Maybe someone has already access to the pdf as per school or other means? That would be cool.
Curious to peep into it and then hope to understand what is said.


It's no human consciousness.. only consciousness.. Shiva dancing around.. sometime he crystallizes... Sometimes he flyes like the wind.. swiiish... Haha waves and particules..

Jees this thread is to much for the mind.. mine is about to explode.. but Im sure you'll get there...
"Too cute to live, too cozy to die" - Eaglepath
 
xss27
#15 Posted : 5/25/2020 10:53:37 AM

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I think this is a good example of a human created problem, where the question (the paradigm) is wrong and therefore the answers are erroneous.

It seems obvious that there are no such things as 'particles' in the first place, that it is a totally conjured concept for the sake of convenience and that there really are only waves in actuality. The experiment shows that, when there is no detection taking place.

The second point is, how on earth can you have any sort of 'detector' which detects the electrons without influencing the outcome anyway? The electron is the most simple, basic 'particle' there is.. in order to detect it you have to interact with it, which means altering what it was going to be doing in the first place. The simplicity of this second point gets lost among the technical jargon and intellectual wankery that takes place by 'experts'.

Adding 'consciousness' and fuzzy poetic notions into the mix just makes the whole thing even more nauseating.

The most simple explanation is usually the right one - there is only waves. It is our comprehension and conceptualization that is wrong.



 
Eaglepath
#16 Posted : 5/25/2020 10:59:31 AM

I rather root my values in my own hallucinations than in society´s neurotic illusions..


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Very well spoken!
"Too cute to live, too cozy to die" - Eaglepath
 
Jees
#17 Posted : 5/25/2020 5:49:51 PM

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xss27 wrote:
...The second point is, how on earth can you have any sort of 'detector' which detects the electrons without influencing the outcome anyway? The electron is the most simple, basic 'particle' there is.. in order to detect it you have to interact with it, which means altering what it was going to be doing in the first place. The simplicity of this second point gets lost among the technical jargon and intellectual wankery that takes place by 'experts'...
You are pointing to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle here (aka to-know-is-to-impact), but the dudes have thought of that too and shared that concern seriously, it was not 'get lost' between the thought wanking, do not underestimate the dudes. The issue has been covered in the 'delayed choice' and 'quantum eraser' tests and are seemingly reproducible without doubt. There, any potential interaction of measurement (devices/consciousness/whatever) was done after the double split crossing in both physical place and time. This way, the measurements could not interfere anymore (by all of our knowledge) at the crossing of the double split itself. Yet still the measurement affected what happened at the double split 'in the past'. This boggled everyone since then and part of the base of the 'entangled' spook.

xss27 wrote:
...
I think this is a good example of a human created problem, where the question (the paradigm) is wrong and therefore the answers are erroneous.

It seems obvious that there are no such things as 'particles' in the first place, that it is a totally conjured concept for the sake of convenience and that there really are only waves in actuality. The experiment shows that, when there is no detection taking place....
There is always a detection going on if only for the preserving of energy, be it in wave or particle manifestation at the end. I think you are mixing up no-detection with no-measurement which are different things.

One cannot hold against science that they are wrong and dreaming in self engineered concepts, as this is the only way to figure out things. And science knows that too, pity there's hardly a choice when studying nature and it's wonders, to iterate with concepts, failing, iterate again...
The alternative is to not investigate at all, religions would love that.
 
Jees
#18 Posted : 5/25/2020 5:52:11 PM

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Eaglepath wrote:
...Jees this thread is to much for the mind.. mine is about to explode.. but Im sure you'll get there...
Not to the ultimate answer I'm afraid. I'm just surfing interesting stuff. Big grin and mostly interested in how-if-any (human) consciousness relates to matter manifestation.

 
dragonrider
#19 Posted : 5/25/2020 7:40:45 PM

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xss27 wrote:
I think this is a good example of a human created problem, where the question (the paradigm) is wrong and therefore the answers are erroneous.

It seems obvious that there are no such things as 'particles' in the first place, that it is a totally conjured concept for the sake of convenience and that there really are only waves in actuality. The experiment shows that, when there is no detection taking place.

The second point is, how on earth can you have any sort of 'detector' which detects the electrons without influencing the outcome anyway? The electron is the most simple, basic 'particle' there is.. in order to detect it you have to interact with it, which means altering what it was going to be doing in the first place. The simplicity of this second point gets lost among the technical jargon and intellectual wankery that takes place by 'experts'.

Adding 'consciousness' and fuzzy poetic notions into the mix just makes the whole thing even more nauseating.

The most simple explanation is usually the right one - there is only waves. It is our comprehension and conceptualization that is wrong.




The posted video actually does not answer whether counsciousness does or does not create anything.
 
xss27
#20 Posted : 5/25/2020 10:13:01 PM

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I've just watched the video. I'm not going to lie or bother fluffing up a response.. I think quantum mechanics is a load of bullshit quite frankly. The notion of distinct particles and probability functions is in my opinion mathematical drivel conjured up by theorists who have not really conducted empirical experimentation, and it's part of a whole raft of metaphysical gibberish that was spawned at the beginning of the 20th century to fill the gaping holes in the scientific paradigm created when Einstein imagined up his nonsensical theory of relativity.

All these paradoxes are nothing magical or mystical, they are failures of a paradigm that is built out of mathematical speculations that are simply not rooted in reality. They are also extremely handy for creating unsolvable problems for the scientific community, meaning they can draw funding and continue research without worrying about short-circuiting their careers or institutions by actually disproving or discovering something new.

Classical physics is where it's at, not quantum mechanics or relativity.
 
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