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I fear the crisis that's coming. Options
 
dragonrider
#1 Posted : 5/19/2020 8:27:29 PM

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This covid-19 crisis makes me feel incredibly sad.
If i walk through the empty streets of amsterdam, it realy pains me to see it, once such a lively city, be so deserted now.
And i know it is probably the same where you are living.

The american central bank projected a 30% negative growth figure for this year.
And america is a country that has, on average per state, a relatively mild lockdown regime compared to france, spain and italy, so it will probably be much worse in those countries.

So many people are going to lose their jobs. Or their businesses. Or their homes.

I fear there are some very dark days ahead of us.

 

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Ferrum
#2 Posted : 5/19/2020 9:18:56 PM

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Maybe. Maybe not . Together we will get through all of this . With each other's support we are strong . Nothing is easy and without challenge we cannot change and grow.

Gardening has been my staple through all of this . Keeps my mind off of it . But I know good people will pull us out of this if we all try . Keep your head up friend
 
OliverJ
#3 Posted : 5/19/2020 9:24:02 PM

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I really don't think this COVID situation is a big deal.

In the scheme of things, with what has happened on this earth in the last 100 years alone - this is nothing. Our parents & grandparents and those before them have gone through far, far worse.

Everything will move on, just fine. With increased taxes... and perhaps some loss of liberty.
 
null24
#4 Posted : 5/19/2020 11:56:08 PM

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OliverJ wrote:
I really don't think this COVID situation is a big deal.

In the scheme of things, with what has happened on this earth in the last 100 years alone - this is nothing. Our parents & grandparents and those before them have gone through far, far worse. Everything will move on, just fine. With increased taxes... and perhaps some loss of liberty.



No, in the grand scale of things you may be correct. After all, everything will be sand, right? However, in the short term- that is, what you and i and all of us will experience- i worry about the economic consequences, and the resultant changes well see when these clouds clear.

No offense, but i honestly don't know how you can make that statement with a conscience unless you've just been denying all that's been reported, have seen none of what's happening personally, or just want to believe what you believe. We're all seeing just how dangerous belief system are right now.

By your last sentence, you seen to recognize the potential for some real restrictions if personal freedom to become a permanent thing but are okay with it? This complacent attitude towards *small* losses of liberty is how well lose it all. (That is NOT a statement in support of ANY of the current anti-vaccine, 5g, bill gates, Jewish plot or any other conpiracy theories out there. I do not believe our world leaders are evil geniuses that could orchestrate it, but they are evil enough to take advantage of something that's fallen into their collective laps)

I was hopeful that we would see a radically transformed society after this that recognizes the shortcomings of unbridled capitalism, and people would realize that they don't need to consume as much,or employers find that work from home is valid, a UBI is given real thought by policy makers, that an appreciation of the lack of pollution and noise and the other positive things weve seem emerge out of this would be integrated permanently.

Now I'm not so sure. We are all operating in a vacuum of information and leadership here in America. I don't know what it's like in Europe, but the catastrophic failure of the US public education system is on full display now and the level of rhetoric is abyssal at best, truly a sad thing to witness- the idiocy of my countrypeople in full swing. I am very sorry on behalf of my country for it's failure to be the leader of the free world that it claims credit for and for the consequences our false leaders inflict upon the rest of you.

Instead of a brave new world, i fear an almost complete takeover by gigantic mega-corps of small business in America, delivering the final blow to am already decreasing sector if the American economy. We are, in comparison, on less of a lock down, but still in my state three only businesses allowed to operate are those deemed essential. I saw the owner of a long standing and very popular small restaurant downtown last week holdng his head in his hands, obviously distraught.

Despite the bumper-sticker like sentimentality, small business is the alleged backbone of the American economy but it had been under relentless attack for decades by the corporate per structures of companies like Amazon et al. The American dream is a myth, yet still so many cling to it as if they are only temporarily disadvantaged millionaires. They are too busy pretending to be rich on credit to actually see what's going on and do anything about it.

Hell, some of the exact same people screaming that haircuts are liberty are trying to stop vote-by-mail in the US election. These idiots are too busy jacking off to each other's paranoid fantasies to actually see what's happening or do anything about it. They are actually trying to restrict their own voice in American policy. AAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHJJ!

I fear that this takeover will happen as the ridiculously ignorant and uneducated population of my country ties it's own scrotum in a knot over fake conspiracy theories, insanely hateful partisanship, and continues to post it all on Facebook while their own cities burn.

I'm with you DR, the shit is really gonna hit the fan, soon.

Another fear i have is that conspiracy theory loving MAGA hat crowd will end up (literally) shooting us all in the head with all their screaming about their freedom to get haircuts and storming state capital buildings with automatic firearms.

All this, racist hate crimes and mass shootings too. Welcome to America. 9/11 brought us together for a week or two in tragedy (before we went for innocent blood) but this crisis has been like a radioactive bat bite to the American idiot, turning him into Stupidman.

EDITED MULTIPLE TIMES FOR SPELLING, SYNTAX ERRORS. Not one mention of psychedelics, if this is too political, move or delete, but honestly i think it's an important *opinion* to say and hear.
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dreamer042
#5 Posted : 5/20/2020 12:41:30 AM

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In the smaller cities and less densely populated areas of the US things are looking pretty normal. Streets are far from empty, restaurants are open and allowing dine in, small businesses are and for the most part have remained open throughout, grocery stores are stocked, toilet paper and bleach are back on the shelves. You can even find surgical masks again.

Precautions are still in effect, medical facilities are still questionnaire and temperature screening, grocery stores still have social distancing markers and plexiglass barriers at the cashier stations. Schools and theaters are still closed, and large gatherings are still cancelled. All in all, things are back to "the new normal" already.

I don't think fear is warranted or productive. The economy will recover, treatments will continue to improve till we get a vaccine, and things will more or less go back to pre-covid business as usual as much as possible. We'll likely see closures and stay at home orders on an off for some time to come, particularly as this years flu season hits, but always with an eye to maintaining business as usual as much as possible.

That's what it looks like through my window. What does the future look like through yours?
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Loveall
#6 Posted : 5/20/2020 1:06:20 AM

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dreamer042 wrote:
In the smaller cities and less densely populated areas of the US things are looking pretty normal. Streets are far from empty, restaurants are open and allowing dine in, small businesses are and for the most part have remained open throughout, grocery stores are stocked, toilet paper and bleach are back on the shelves. You can even find surgical masks again.

Precautions are still in effect, medical facilities are still questionnaire and temperature screening, grocery stores still have social distancing markers and plexiglass barriers at the cashier stations. Schools and theaters are still closed, and large gatherings are still cancelled. All in all, things are back to "the new normal" already.

I don't think fear is warranted or productive. The economy will recover, treatments will continue to improve till we get a vaccine, and things will more or less go back to pre-covid business as usual as much as possible. We'll likely see closures and stay at home orders on an off for some time to come, particularly as this years flu season hits, but always with an eye to maintaining business as usual as much as possible.

That's what it looks like through my window. What does the future look like through yours?


Agreed for COVID-19. What I worry about is continuing with unsustainable practices (defined as consuming more than the earth can replenish) with a "blind faith" that technology will provide long term solutions. I hope it does, but right now it seems like we are gambling on the prospects of future generations based on a whim that things will continually just work out.

To be fair, I don't see how we get society to say "let's make a plan that takes into account the carrying capacity of the earth". Our debt-base-monetary and infinite-growth-economic systems were develop when the earth's resources where vast compared to our consumption rate (which is no longer the case).

What can am individual do? Consume less and generate more I think. Maybe grow your own food/plants/drugs, compost to enrich the soil, avoid frivolous consumption, don't spend money on unsustainable stuff like industrial meat or a cruise.

For now we are stuck with the social systems we have, but individual choices inside them matter a lot and they add up. I understand some are more privileged than others in being able to make choices. And of course, some simply don't care.
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Hailstorm
#7 Posted : 5/20/2020 5:29:49 AM

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People at the start of the XX century worried about their streets getting filled with horse crap due to transportation. Luckily, Henry Ford was too busy to worry.

So stop worrying about the "carrying capacity of the Earth", "climate change" or similar apocalyptic nonsense. Worry about your life, your only chance, slipping through your fingers as you spend time worrying about things outside your control. Have trust in the mankind, do not litter, be kind to strangers, and focus on your family, friends, your own health and well-being.
 
Jees
#8 Posted : 5/20/2020 9:07:08 AM

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It's normal to fear and worry and there's hardly a switch to set if 'off'.
Maybe there's even a factor of intelligence coupled to it.
But one might monitor when it starts to take over / become obsession.
Finding a balance sounds a good plan, and as Hailstorm points out, to still give gravity to what is in reach of personal control, trying to do well between your own very walls. In that course allow yourself a humanly fail to learn from and go on.
 
OliverJ
#9 Posted : 5/20/2020 11:59:21 AM

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null24 wrote:
OliverJ wrote:
I really don't think this COVID situation is a big deal.

In the scheme of things, with what has happened on this earth in the last 100 years alone - this is nothing. Our parents & grandparents and those before them have gone through far, far worse. Everything will move on, just fine. With increased taxes... and perhaps some loss of liberty.



No, in the grand scale of things you may be correct. After all, everything will be sand, right? However, in the short term- that is, what you and i and all of us will experience- i worry about the economic consequences, and the resultant changes well see when these clouds clear.

No offense, but i honestly don't know how you can make that statement with a conscience unless you've just been denying all that's been reported, have seen none of what's happening personally, or just want to believe what you believe. We're all seeing just how dangerous belief system are right now.

By your last sentence, you seen to recognize the potential for some real restrictions if personal freedom to become a permanent thing but are okay with it? This complacent attitude towards *small* losses of liberty is how well lose it all. (That is NOT a statement in support of ANY of the current anti-vaccine, 5g, bill gates, Jewish plot or any other conpiracy theories out there. I do not believe our world leaders are evil geniuses that could orchestrate it, but they are evil enough to take advantage of something that's fallen into their collective laps)

I was hopeful that we would see a radically transformed society after this that recognizes the shortcomings of unbridled capitalism, and people would realize that they don't need to consume as much,or employers find that work from home is valid, a UBI is given real thought by policy makers, that an appreciation of the lack of pollution and noise and the other positive things weve seem emerge out of this would be integrated permanently.

Now I'm not so sure. We are all operating in a vacuum of information and leadership here in America. I don't know what it's like in Europe, but the catastrophic failure of the US public education system is on full display now and the level of rhetoric is abyssal at best, truly a sad thing to witness- the idiocy of my countrypeople in full swing. I am very sorry on behalf of my country for it's failure to be the leader of the free world that it claims credit for and for the consequences our false leaders inflict upon the rest of you.

Instead of a brave new world, i fear an almost complete takeover by gigantic mega-corps of small business in America, delivering the final blow to am already decreasing sector if the American economy. We are, in comparison, on less of a lock down, but still in my state three only businesses allowed to operate are those deemed essential. I saw the owner of a long standing and very popular small restaurant downtown last week holdng his head in his hands, obviously distraught.

Despite the bumper-sticker like sentimentality, small business is the alleged backbone of the American economy but it had been under relentless attack for decades by the corporate per structures of companies like Amazon et al. The American dream is a myth, yet still so many cling to it as if they are only temporarily disadvantaged millionaires. They are too busy pretending to be rich on credit to actually see what's going on and do anything about it.

Hell, some of the exact same people screaming that haircuts are liberty are trying to stop vote-by-mail in the US election. These idiots are too busy jacking off to each other's paranoid fantasies to actually see what's happening or do anything about it. They are actually trying to restrict their own voice in American policy. AAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHJJ!

I fear that this takeover will happen as the ridiculously ignorant and uneducated population of my country ties it's own scrotum in a knot over fake conspiracy theories, insanely hateful partisanship, and continues to post it all on Facebook while their own cities burn.

I'm with you DR, the shit is really gonna hit the fan, soon.

Another fear i have is that conspiracy theory loving MAGA hat crowd will end up (literally) shooting us all in the head with all their screaming about their freedom to get haircuts and storming state capital buildings with automatic firearms.

All this, racist hate crimes and mass shootings too. Welcome to America. 9/11 brought us together for a week or two in tragedy (before we went for innocent blood) but this crisis has been like a radioactive bat bite to the American idiot, turning him into Stupidman.

EDITED MULTIPLE TIMES FOR SPELLING, SYNTAX ERRORS. Not one mention of psychedelics, if this is too political, move or delete, but honestly i think it's an important *opinion* to say and hear.


I am libertarian.

Loss of life is tragic.

Written word can be such a poor medium for conveying thought, understanding and emotion can't it?

Dreamer042 has articulated and expressed my own thoughts more fully and clearly than I had done in my initial post.
 
dragonrider
#10 Posted : 5/20/2020 4:19:57 PM

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dreamer042 wrote:
In the smaller cities and less densely populated areas of the US things are looking pretty normal. Streets are far from empty, restaurants are open and allowing dine in, small businesses are and for the most part have remained open throughout, grocery stores are stocked, toilet paper and bleach are back on the shelves. You can even find surgical masks again.

Precautions are still in effect, medical facilities are still questionnaire and temperature screening, grocery stores still have social distancing markers and plexiglass barriers at the cashier stations. Schools and theaters are still closed, and large gatherings are still cancelled. All in all, things are back to "the new normal" already.

I don't think fear is warranted or productive. The economy will recover, treatments will continue to improve till we get a vaccine, and things will more or less go back to pre-covid business as usual as much as possible. We'll likely see closures and stay at home orders on an off for some time to come, particularly as this years flu season hits, but always with an eye to maintaining business as usual as much as possible.

That's what it looks like through my window. What does the future look like through yours?

Well, for me personally it doesn't look that bad. I am in pretty good shape, and i like to believe i'm pretty adaptable as well.

When it comes to the virus, i am concerned about my mother in the first place, as she is rather fragile. Some friends of me are smokers, but they'd probably survive an infection.

But i also worry a lot about people with small businesses, like our own benzyme for instance. There are many people who, like him, have invested a lot of money and hard work to build something from the ground. They don't deserve what i fear is coming for them.
With a rapid 30% economic decline, i believe it is unavoidable that a lot of talent, energy and hard work is going to go down the drain.

Ofcourse this 30% is only a projection for now (and based on quarters in the case of the FED), but central bankers aren't generally known to be very pessimistic by nature.
 
Bill Cipher
#11 Posted : 5/20/2020 6:21:54 PM
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OliverJ wrote:
I really don't think this COVID situation is a big deal.

In the scheme of things, with what has happened on this earth in the last 100 years alone - this is nothing. Our parents & grandparents and those before them have gone through far, far worse.

Everything will move on, just fine. With increased taxes... and perhaps some loss of liberty.



I'm sorry. That's just fucking moronic.

The US lost just over 400,000 people over a four year span during World War II. We are 25% of the way to that figure right now with COVID-19 and it's been less than three months... and we are still just getting started. There is no national plan in place other than "lie, distract & wait for a miracle", so until there is a vaccine readily available, the death toll is going to grow. And until infection rates drop substantially, economic collapse is a virtual certainty. So for you to say that this is nothing tells me that you are either mentally challenged or have some kind of an issue with empathy.


Hailstorm wrote:
People at the start of the XX century worried about their streets getting filled with horse crap due to transportation. Luckily, Henry Ford was too busy to worry.

So stop worrying about the "carrying capacity of the Earth", "climate change" or similar apocalyptic nonsense. Worry about your life, your only chance, slipping through your fingers as you spend time worrying about things outside your control. Have trust in the mankind, do not litter, be kind to strangers, and focus on your family, friends, your own health and well-being.



Also a staggeringly moronic and infuriating point of view, but a completely unsurprising one from an unapologetic Trump collaborator. Make no mistake whatsoever: we are here at this place (the wealthiest nation on Earth, with five times as many infections as that of our closest competitor) because of people like you - racists and xenophobes who voted this cocksucker into power and continue to rally behind him. And now you call climate change "apocalyptic nonsense"? You are utterly unworthy of respect.

 
OliverJ
#12 Posted : 5/20/2020 8:46:32 PM

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Bill.

Seriously?

You are openly attacking people here?

I get you're a moderator but mate, the world is a place with freedom of speech and different ideology. When you are intolerant and infact abusive? Who are you?

You have a different view to other people. And that's OK. As I appreciate you have a different view why do you feel the need to insult another?

Ban me if you like for having the minerals to challenge you I don't care. Your post attack is actually shockimg to me. I don't understand why you feel the need to attack someone?

Of all places as a MODERATOR, I would expect to see moderation. We are all here with a common goal and understanding as different people.

I hope you understand my point because you are not my enemy and I am not yours.

I love this place. I love the people here and what we are trying to support each other with. But I do not feel i, or others, deserve that kind of communication.

Peace and love for all Love
 
Spiralout
#13 Posted : 5/20/2020 8:53:40 PM

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I do have to side with the "this is a big deal" camp on this one. I couldn't help but think of Brave New World when you mentioned Henry Ford Hailstorm ( Hail Ford!).

Things are getting back to "normal" right now, but, as Bill mentioned; there is literally nothing, other than superficialities, put in place to prevent things from getting worse. If we are going to open things back up, we should at least be stocked up on PPE and be opening up slowly and cautiously. Our president is a complete mockery of this country; he is a conceited, ball breaking, fool and an unapologetic bully.

Whether or not one individual should focus specifically on the environmental crisis is one thing, but nobody should ignore it or down play it. This is simply foolish, wishful and magical thinking. Putting climate change "in quotes" implies that it isn't real; this has been proven beyond any scrupulously scientific doubt to not be true. It is definitely real. To ignore this fact, with the thinking that it will surely and inevitably be fixed, is on par with the country being opened back up with as much as a fart in the wind insofar as a safety net is concerned. Maybe things will get better, but if there are peoples lives at stake, then to ignore this fact, makes you a rather intolerable person. This is not to say that we should cower in fear, or not try to make things better, obviously, but it is to say that we should look at reality for what it is.

As much as I am on the fence about UBI (for reasons I won't get into here; I have delineated them in the past though maybe not on the forum) I did, and do, have hopes that this virus may be the wake up call to help us collectively, and personally, "get our act together". This has not happened so far though. Small businesses and individual have taken the brunt of this, just as has seemed to happen throughout the recent history of our country. I for one am doing the best that I can to get my own act together (which is an uphill battle to be sure) and I am not unintelligent individual, but, without having the safety net (which is wearing thin) of my family support, I would be homeless as I have been before.

I do not wish to polarize this subject as it has already become, clearly, much more polarized than it should ever have been (America, and seemingly most first world countries, have all been more polarized than ever the past decade or so it seems). But I do think we should look at this rationally. In America at least, things are not going well. Communism clearly is not the answer, but unbridled capitalism does not seem rational, in this day of age, with out depleted resources, and what seems to be nearly a pinnacle of technological advances.
 
Bill Cipher
#14 Posted : 5/20/2020 8:57:36 PM
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Null - I agree with most everything you said, and I think your fears are very well founded.

This is Trump's Reichstag fire. He is going to use it to maximum personal advantage until the moment he is no longer in power, and he will cause an unfathomable amount of global catastrophe everyday until he's removed. I do believe that he and the GOP will be crushed come November, but I also believe without a fucking doubt that he will not participate in a peaceful transition of power, so where does that leave us then?

Economically, much of what we're seeing now is the result of a top-down, eat the poor model begun by Ronald Reagan. It has since mutated into something more monstrous, and is now fodder for exploitation by the most corrupt administration in US history. The only reason the stock market is not far worse than it is, is because our economy is driven to such a large part by mega corporations (for whom this pandemic is not all bad). The middle class is an antiquated notion. All but the wealthy are expendable.

The Blue choice at present does not offer any revolutionary thinking regarding capitalism run amok, so that will continue for now. We're saddled with one of the weaker candidates (from a fairly deep field, I would say), but the choice is ridiculously, utterly clear. This is Blue vs. The Apocalypse. That's not rhetoric and it's not partisanship. It is 100% reality.
 
Bill Cipher
#15 Posted : 5/20/2020 9:00:01 PM
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OliverJ wrote:
Bill.

Seriously?

You are openly attacking people here?

I get you're a moderator but mate, the world is a place with freedom of speech and different ideology. When you are intolerant and infact abusive? Who are you?

You have a different view to other people. And that's OK. As I appreciate you have a different view why do you feel the need to insult another?

Ban me if you like for having the minerals to challenge you I don't care. Your post attack is actually shockimg to me. I don't understand why you feel the need to attack someone?

Of all places as a MODERATOR, I would expect to see moderation. We are all here with a common goal and understanding as different people.

I hope you understand my point because you are not my enemy and I am not yours.

Peace and love for all Love


You're barking up the wrong tree, pal. I attack because you are callous and ignorant, and because callous ignorance offends me.
 
Spiralout
#16 Posted : 5/20/2020 9:00:10 PM

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OliverJ; I did not see your recent comment until after I had posted.

I am not Bill but I was also pretty put off by your original comment. Do you not see why?
 
OliverJ
#17 Posted : 5/20/2020 9:04:39 PM

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OK.

This is going to get tough for me here and I don't want to fallout with people over political ideology.

I am not sure why you see me as being ignorant?

People have died and that's terrible, but things are going to get better. And the world will move on. What have I said wrong?
 
Spiralout
#18 Posted : 5/20/2020 9:09:03 PM

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You said it is "not a big deal". How can this be seen as not being a big deal? It's a global epidemic. What planet are you living on?

I too have to keep faith that things will get better but I do not want any more of my liberty to be surrendered than already has been.
 
OliverJ
#19 Posted : 5/20/2020 9:17:11 PM

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Sorry for off topic.

8000 people die a day from starvation.

All of us here could fix that. But it isn't at our doorsteps and we aren't told about it. So nobody cares.

Nearly 3 million die annually from obesity.

Probably my callousness comes across because I do not believe in the way my government has enforced the lockdown policy. I feel sad for the pain and suffering for those I know with mental health conditions. I know people who have been refused cancer treatment because covid restrictions have prevented treatment. I know people suffering with depression who are suicidal.

I am sorry if the way I have come across has offended any of you, I care about humankind and I want the best for us. I do not mean to be abrasive. I want all of humanity to live in peace. I just truly believe that this virus is not huge or world destroying, when we compare it to already existing plagues on our species. Plagues we could already treat and eradicate.

Maybe my words give the wrong measure of me, I care, I want this to be over, I just know that we are gonna make it out okay.

Sorry for any offence I have caused, it is not intended.
 
Bill Cipher
#20 Posted : 5/20/2020 9:38:15 PM
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OliverJ wrote:
I am not sure why you see me as being ignorant?


I think I already explained why I see you as ignorant, so I'm not going to engage you further. It wouldn't actually accomplish anything, and honestly, I don't believe you're worthy of engagement.
 
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