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scaredofthedark
#401 Posted : 11/21/2023 8:10:36 PM

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Anybody know what happened with to ChemisTryptaMan? He hasn't posted in a couple years, but had a very keen interest in this topic. He was the chemist responsible for us adding salt to our Teks. No worries, if not. Great thread. I'll have to read through all of it sometime. Cheers.
 

STS is a community for people interested in growing, preserving and researching botanical species, particularly those with remarkable therapeutic and/or psychoactive properties.
 
Sidisheikh.mehriz
#402 Posted : 11/29/2023 8:00:02 AM

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scaredofthedark hello there.
Sorry for the late reply. Haven't really known about ChemisTryptaMan personally. Hope he's doing okay. It's always good to have chemist members around here. I see them as one of the pillars of this community.

This thread is expanding in some fascinating directions which wouldn't have been possible if not for the varied richness of the different backgrounds of the members involved.
 
dithyramb
#403 Posted : 11/30/2023 7:36:08 AM

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A bit of positive publicity for the indole alkaloid gramine/donaxine commonly found in phalaris and other poaceae species.

Study 1:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23691032/

Quote:

Abstract

The natural alkaloid gramine has attracted significant attention in both academic and industrial circles because of its potential and diverse biological activities, including antiviral, antibacterial, antifungal, anti-inflammatory and antitumor activities; application in therapy for Alzheimer’s disease; serotonin-receptor-related activity; insecticidal activity; and application as an algicide...




Study 2:

https://link.springer.co....1007/s12010-023-04693-6

Quote:
Title

Gramine Exerts Cytoprotective Effects and Antioxidant Properties Against H2O2-Induced Oxidative Stress in HEK 293 Cells




Apparently adiponectin receptor agonists are used in the treatment of diabetes, atherosclerosis and obesity, but I couldn't find a study specifically on gramine in that context. There seem to be studies on using adiponectin receptor agonists for the treatment of these ailments that just mention gramine as one adiponectin receptor agonist among others.

The consciousness of plants is a constant source of information for medicine, alimentation, and art, and an example of the intelligence and creative imagination of nature. Much of my education I owe to the intelligence of these great teachers. Thus I consider myself to be the “representative” of plants, and for this reason I assert that if they cut down the trees and burn what’s left of the rainforests, it is the same as burning a whole library of books without ever having read them.

~ Pablo Amaringo
 
nen888
#404 Posted : 12/1/2023 1:14:24 AM
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thanks dithyramb, it makes sense that gramine may have some therapeutic actions..

i think the gramine 'issue' has been repeatedly overstated, without evidence, for years..
and i say this based on multiple bioassays of plants known to contain gramine, and that there usually isn't a lot in Phalaris..

5meo-DMT is considerably more toxic than gramine, based on LD-50, yet I don't hear people going on about the '5meo issue' in Phalaris much - except the wise observation of Tomtegubbe and dithyramb to avoid ingesting 5meo with MAOIs
Gramine needs research

Looking forward to some Phalaris test results when they become available

stay safe and well everyone..
 
dithyramb
#405 Posted : 12/3/2023 5:58:34 PM

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More elaborate references about gramine in this thread:

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...;t=94835&find=unread

Gramine may have therapeutic actions and may be safer than previously thought, but that it is a 5ht2a antagonist makes it a strong candidate for being the blocking factor that I have been experiencing in phragmites. İt's strange that phalaris grass doesn't seem to have this block. There is something in common, this "distanced" experience of the DMT in phalaris and phragmites. But in phragmites it is to the point of blocking the power of DMT. This is specific to the leaves.

I am considering becoming adept at doing analyses.
The consciousness of plants is a constant source of information for medicine, alimentation, and art, and an example of the intelligence and creative imagination of nature. Much of my education I owe to the intelligence of these great teachers. Thus I consider myself to be the “representative” of plants, and for this reason I assert that if they cut down the trees and burn what’s left of the rainforests, it is the same as burning a whole library of books without ever having read them.

~ Pablo Amaringo
 
nen888
#406 Posted : 12/11/2023 12:18:56 PM
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hey people, i deleted a post on gramine, as i discovered some really good new info on it...i will post on it again when time allows..but for now, i'm forming an opinion that i'd say, if anything, it looks more like a potential health benefit than something to worry about .

and dithyramb, testing is like looking at the patterns on paper..
but also is of great benefit in narrowing down conjecture

stay safe and well all
 
dithyramb
#407 Posted : 12/14/2023 7:27:35 PM

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May I ask from where the notion of toxic glycosides being rendered safe after boiling, being expressed by various people here, originates from? Does it have a solid source or is it an extrapolation from what happens to Bufo venom when smoked?
The consciousness of plants is a constant source of information for medicine, alimentation, and art, and an example of the intelligence and creative imagination of nature. Much of my education I owe to the intelligence of these great teachers. Thus I consider myself to be the “representative” of plants, and for this reason I assert that if they cut down the trees and burn what’s left of the rainforests, it is the same as burning a whole library of books without ever having read them.

~ Pablo Amaringo
 
nen888
#408 Posted : 12/14/2023 11:28:57 PM
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dithyramb...its well established for cyanogenic glycosides in scientific literature for a wide range of plants..i've never heard of it in a toad context (and personally avoid all animal exploitation)

heres a google search:

https://www.google.com/s...chrome&ie=UTF-8#ip=1

what is established as the most effective removal of cyanogenic glycosides is drying followed by boiling..

(edit: to add - cardiac glycosides, as found in toads, are very rare in plants and afaik never detected in phalaris)

[edit2 - i agree with DFZ's assesment later on..cardiac glycosides are 'not common' rather than 'very rare' in plants...i haven't done a complete inventory, but they're not something i often expect to encounter]
 
downwardsfromzero
#409 Posted : 12/14/2023 11:55:08 PM

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dithyramb wrote:
May I ask from where the notion of toxic glycosides being rendered safe after boiling, being expressed by various people here, originates from? Does it have a solid source or is it an extrapolation from what happens to Bufo venom when smoked?

Boiling cyanogenic glycosides is likely to break them down and drive off the HCN - so if you smell almonds, run away! Laughing

It's a bit like the preparation of cassava - it ought to be done outdoors. The question is though, how much cyanide does the grass contain? It's not likely to be anywhere near as much as in things like cassava or various members of the rosaceae - bitter almonds, cherry stones, etc. [I swept up a lot of cherry leaves not so long ago and the almond smell from those was unexpectedly strong this year.]




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
dithyramb
#410 Posted : 12/15/2023 7:19:29 AM

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Alright, thank you. In my interactions with the grasses, I recall getting an almond-like smell in the drying and boiling of brachystachys and paradoxa.
The consciousness of plants is a constant source of information for medicine, alimentation, and art, and an example of the intelligence and creative imagination of nature. Much of my education I owe to the intelligence of these great teachers. Thus I consider myself to be the “representative” of plants, and for this reason I assert that if they cut down the trees and burn what’s left of the rainforests, it is the same as burning a whole library of books without ever having read them.

~ Pablo Amaringo
 
downwardsfromzero
#411 Posted : 12/15/2023 7:45:58 PM

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Further footnote - cardiac (sterol) glycosides are fairly widespread in certain plant genera, making them uncommon, perhaps, rather than very rare. Foxglove is the classic example, where we have the surprisingly similar cardenolides rather than the bufenolides found in toads. Other cardioactive plants that spring to mind are figwort, which is in the scrophulariaceae just like digitalis, and lily of the valley (convallaria), which isn't.

There are a good few African plants containing cardiac glycosides but mostly the name of one of the latter, ouabain, is what sticks with me due to its slight surfeit of vowels.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
nen888
#412 Posted : 12/17/2023 10:08:53 AM
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ok back re re-arranged info..but as far as deleted posts go.....it's like Here today, gone tomorrow...if you find a good strain share seed, if you come across information take it in now, and then...remember it...that's the old ways..now excuse my ramblings
.

Ok, Gramine....
(3-(dimethylaminomethyl)-indole)

..I'm not sure there has ever been any evidence of Gramine acute toxicity..i'm not sure where the worry about gramine originates...erowid?
As far as I can see it is based on a misunderstanding of early research into the cause of the Phalaris 'Staggers syndrome'...they were looking to see if alkaloids were responsible, and gave animals ridiculous amounts of gramine to try and induce toxic symptoms...they also gave them Hordenine and 5meo-DMT, the latter of which was the most toxic in that context..

..from Bourke et al 1988 (Aust Vet J. 1988, Jul; 65(7):218-20.) :-
Quote:
The acute toxicity for sheep of 3 alkaloids that occur in Phalaris acquatica was examined by intravenous and oral administration. The lowest tested dose rates that produced clinically observed signs were, for 5-methoxy dimethyltryptamine, 0.1 mg/kg body weight intravenously and 40 mg/kg orally; for gramine, 10 mg/kg intravenously and 500 mg/kg orally; and for hordenine, 20 mg/kg intravenously and 800 mg/kg orally. All induced the clinical signs observed in the nervous form of phalaris toxicity, but none induced the cardiac, sudden death.


...the Staggers syndrome has now been found to not be caused by any of the alkaloids..As I said in my deleted post:
Quote:
It's in this post in the Phalaris=the way of the Future thread

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...m=406122&#post406122

[it's caused by a combination of grazing on lots of grass with high ammonium levels, and a compound (as yet unknown but potentially from a fungus, as only some grass does it) that affects the animals ability to metabolize nitrogen, resulting in nitrogen overdose]

There's a lot of great info various nexians have posted in that thread, and it can be hard to remember where things are, but there's a well there..



so, how toxic is gramine? not very, is my conclusion, from the evidence i’ve seen….sure anything is toxic if given enough (like 500mg gramine per kg the sheep were! Again - per kg, and even then most were ok after a bout of 'nervous symptoms' ) 

Gramine is in Oats and Barley...most of you have had gramine, even regularly.....

i was going to post a bunch of papers, theres been a renaissance in gramine research, but so as not to clutter..this paper looked precisely at how toxic is gramine...

Safety evaluation of an oat grain alkaloid gramine by genotoxicity assays
Manash Pratim Pathak et al. Drug Chem Toxicol. 2018 Apr.


..from the abstract:
Quote:
Gramine is a natural indole alkaloid that has been isolated from different raw plants occurring mainly in Avena sativa, etc. The study was aimed to investigate the possible in vitro antioxidant, in vitro mutagenic, in vitro antimutagenic, and in vivo genotoxic activity of gramine using ferric reducing ability of plasma (FRAP) assay, Metal chelating, Ames bacterial reverse mutation test, and the mouse bone marrow micronucleus assay as well as chromosomal aberration. Four concentrations of gramine viz. 250, 500, 1000, and 2000 μg/mL were evaluated…
i.e. 0.1, 0.2, and 0.3 × the LD50 of gramine (i.e. 50 mg/kg, 100 mg/kg, and 150 mg/kg) were administered orally to either sex of Swiss albino mice for 48 h to study the genotoxic activity in micronucleus assay as well as chromosomal aberration.

Gramine showed potent antioxidant activity in both the assay. Gramine at the given dose lacks mutagenicity as well as found to possess antimutagenic efficacy. Interestingly, S9 enzymes increase the antimutagenic activity in a dose-dependent manner. There was no significant increase in the frequency of micronucleated polychromatic erythrocytes (MNPCEs), as well as no significant difference in the percentage of chromosomal aberrations was observed between the gramine groups and the negative groups but percentage of polychromatic erythrocytes (PCEs) is found to be higher in all the gramine groups. These results indicate significant antioxidant, non-mutagenic as well as non-genotoxic activity of gramine in vitro and in vivo in the given doses.



dithyramb..as far as being a possible 'blocking agent', as mentioned in your earlier post, i don't see much evidence that it would block effects of DMT, and in fact see a lot of evidence of its psychoactivity.

from the deleted post:
Quote:
The area of antagonists vs inverse agonists (for blocking vs having activity) is a bit fuzzy, so I don't really know, but I would think it would have to be present in much greater quantities than what's in Phalaris generally to have much of a shot at that.. .
It's also worth noting that DMT acts most strongly on 5ht7 (a highly interesting receptor)

But, Gramine doesn't appear to block completely the total 5ht2 receptor, as in animal experiments it's been shown to have CNS effects of its own.

from Phalaris=the Way thread:-

'.."may have ephidrine-like effects" is taken from Voogelbreinder (2009)..
that book also notes that gramine appaered a few years ago as a purported human health supplement..from Designed Nutritional Products:
"Suggested use is as a sedative and nerve tonic"...suggested doses are 100-400mg (see p.403) '

It was also apparently "behaivourally-active in rats" [Gessner et al. 1961]
and if we take it’s presence in Avena species as an indicator, it may have some sedative effects..

Clearly the psychoactivity of gramine in humans is an area open for research…the effects of high doses on animals indicated similar nervous activity to dmt & 5meo…

Now, of course the amounts present in Phalaris are on average really quite small…
again from the deleted post:
Quote:
As an example, there is an analysis of a Phalaris strain early in the way of the future thread by benzyme showing of total alkaloid in that particular case, 90% was DMT, and the rest mainly gramine..Now, if 30mg of alkaloid was vaporised, that would be 27mg dmt and 3mg gramine...I would be sceptical if that example would be enough to 'block' the effects of DMT through being a 5ht2a antagonist..it may be enough to give the experience a subtly different quality..


But, I leave it to everyone to draw their own conclusions..

Stay well and safe all
 
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