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OneIsEros
#1 Posted : 12/14/2019 12:48:01 AM
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From Nick Sand’s article “Moving Into the Sacred World of DMT”:

“Look at it as though consciousness were a set of stairs. Each stair represents a higher level of health, integration, and preparedness. At the bottom one can use the psychedelics with beer, opium, and cocaine to have a wilder party. One can use them to lose one’s self, have great sex, etc. Fine and good; nothing really wrong, if that’s what you want to do—it beats shooting people and raping the environment! This is, however, a low level of consciousness. Then you go up a few levels and you think that you can do some good with these compounds. Let’s use them for studying madness or curing addiction. Still a pretty low level of consciousness and no real commitment to personal development. This use is directed outward, not inward. Change comes from within—it can never be imposed from the outside. The next step up it occurs that maybe you could use psychedelics for finding answers to questions in your life, perhaps even for vision questing. Now we’re beginning to start on a more consciousness-oriented trip. But how are we doing it? Are we really arranging it so that we are creating an environment that unequivocally sets the stage for a leap into consciousness, or are we programming the trip with interruptions (telephone calls, visitors)? The purer our intention, the greater the possible results become. It can be quite subtle. You cannot plan it all out beyond a certain point or it becomes a control trip. You cannot program out spontaneity, but you can be intelligent and sensitive, and remember not to make the same mistake too many times in a row. Then you can use the psychedelics as an adjunct to tantra, meditation and/or yoga, devoting your entire trip to learning to go deep in these disciplines while continuing these practices on a long-term basis. This is the highest, most visionary, and most productive level. From whatever level you begin, the psychedelics will enhance, intensify, deepen, or broaden your experience, but they are working with the level of consciousness you provide them.”

http://psychedelicfronti...ed-world-dmt-nick-sand/

Nick Sand was one of the luminaries at the beginning of the Western civilization’s mass introduction to psychedelics. He saw that access to psychedelics was something the world needed, so, he devoted his life to making and distributing psychedelics. He succeeded in that mission, aided by his many bretheren in underground psychedelic chemistry, and those who helped spread the arts of psychedelic botany.

He makes an interesting point for us now. Moving past hedonism, we move to medicalization: we can cure mental illness or drug addiction! But he notes that this is still quite a low level. So you had your MDMA therapy session and your PTSD is gone? Or your ibogaine trip, and you are no longer hooked on heroin? All that this leads to is back to life as usual.

For transformation, for meaningful engagement, he points us to yoga and meditation. I think his point here is just that the best and highest use of psychedelics is to encounter God or comparable realities. And it leads me to wonder: at this time in our history, is the mission to attain access a phase that has been successfully completed? Anyone can grow shrooms, or cacti, or order ayahuasca ingredients online, or do DMT extractions, and acid isn’t too difficult to find...

And the medicalization thing is coming to a head... MDMA’s going to be legal. Ibogaine will probably be brought into the spotlight with this opioid epidemic, too... psychotherapy? Drug rehab? The two major medical uses: check, and check.

Perhaps the next big phase in service to the psychedelic culture will not be underground chemistry or medicine (though these will always be necessary, at least the underground chemistry will be until it’s all legalized)... but in teaching people how to trip?

Sand mentions yoga and meditation. I think teaching psychedelic yoga and meditation is a great idea. I’ve had success with it. I’d just like to add one thing: indigenous practices. Yes, indigenous practices are not yogic/meditative, and their aims aren’t “transcendental”... BUT... they are the only truly traditional practices with psychedelics that exist. Everything else is experimental, not even a hundred years old yet.

In short: the next great service will not be providing the drugs (the last big mission), or bringing them into medicine (the current big mission), but teaching people how to use them, using yogic, meditative, and shamanic techniques.
 

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Achilles
#2 Posted : 12/14/2019 1:37:11 AM

I know more about the gods than your priest, ive seen them.


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I’m with what your saying, but it’s easier said than done. People react differently to their psychedelic experiences so trying to teach someone how to handle a trip can be tricky. And make no mistake, we already do act as “shaman” for the people looking for these experiences. Actually, we kinda teach people how to be “shaman”. I watched a show on Netflix that explained it perfectly. The role of traditional shaman were to assist the people seeking these experiences by safely identifying and preparing the “sacraments” needed (which we do by identifying entheogenic substance and teaching extraction and preparation methods), the next step was showing the seeker how to properly ingest the “sacraments” (which we do by teaching smoking techniques and different ways to administer these substances whether it be oral, intravenous, or inhalation), then the final role of the shaman was to walk the seeker through their experience the way ground control walks an astronaut through traveling through space, (which we do by providing our experience reports and providing quality information on ego death and all other things someone may experience while tripping). So if you look at things from this standpoint we already are ten steps ahead of you 😉. You just have to try to veiw things from a more modern veiw rather than the old terms like “shaman” .. anyways hopefully this helps clarify what the nexus really does for ya.

Learn, share, expand
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OneIsEros
#3 Posted : 12/14/2019 5:40:33 AM
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I was thinking more along the lines of things like:

Meditation
Yoga
Drumming
Singing
Dancing

And so on. What Sand is talking about is using these and related techniques to deepen the both the psychedelic trips and the techniques themselves.

Based on my experience with meditating on psychedelics, I’ve learned it is possible to deepen the visionary experience by activity, so the experience is no longer a passive event. I know that if I sit down and meditate for an hour and a half on ayahuasca, I will begin to have visions and experiences far deeper than I would have if I didn’t.

Similarly, people who train shamanically in South America report that after you sing/drum/whatever for hours, you start seeing things you never would if you just drank ayahuasca and sat back and waited. There is an active component which technique can facilitate in a way that is predictable and repeatable in general ways. I say general because the visions you have will be different every time, BUT the ability to bring on the deeper states via these activities in general is predictable.

Even taking a higher dose will not succeed in bringing these kinds of experiences on, it really does require this sort of technical engagement. Nick Sand is dead on point here, and I really believe that now that wide access and medicalization are becoming realities, this is the next thing that needs to come to general awareness. It already is, sort of. Ayahuasqueros have reputations. But even if we don’t become full blown Shipibo shamans, I think we can learn some tricks that can deepen our experiences, just like people who are not monks or Hindu ascetics can learn meditation and yoga asanas.

I still think the final mission is teaching technique, and that this is not yet really seriously a part of Western psychedelic culture the way it is in Mestizo/Latin American indigenous cultures - but it can be. We may not become Shipibo shamans... but I think we can still learn some things, and make our psychedelic culture more intentional and technique-oriented. I just use the word “shaman” to distinguish where the technique comes from. Yogic vs. shamanic are names I am using as place holders for families of techniques from different cultures that can be practiced while tripping that deepen psychedelic experiences.
 
Jupitor
#4 Posted : 12/14/2019 6:53:18 AM

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This thing you're talking about is already happening openly using Cannabis as the sacrament in places where it is legal, like Colorado for example. I agree that it is a huge next step to waking up humanity. We really can't wait any longer. Humanity as a whole needs to wake up. Now.

We should all be evangelizing this stuff. Direct unmitigated access to God consciousness for everyone is the one and only true religion. And humanity is going to need to embrace if we are to continue.
 
OneIsEros
#5 Posted : 12/14/2019 6:58:49 AM
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Jupitor wrote:
This thing you're talking about is already happening openly using Cannabis as the sacrament in places where it is legal, like Colorado for example. I agree that it is a huge next step to waking up humanity. We really can't wait any longer. Humanity as a whole needs to wake up. Now.

We should all be evangelizing this stuff. Direct unmitigated access to God consciousness for everyone is the one and only true religion. And humanity is going to need to embrace if we are to continue.


I do not know if it will save humanity or establish a one, true religion on Earth - but I do think it will make our personal and cultural relationship with psychedelics develop to its highest potential, which would be good Smile

I sincerely hope the fate of the human race does not rest on any one thing, and if it had to, certainly not on us learning psychedelic yoga/shamanism Razz Bernie Sanders doesn't seem like a tripster, but I think he's on that "save humanity" kinda vibe already Razz

I think that generally spreading psychedelic yoga/shamanism techniques is the next big step past proliferated drug access and medicalization, but I also think that by its nature it will remain a pretty individual thing - like how yoga practice and meditation are individual things. I don't think yoga and meditation will save the world and I certainly wouldn't depend on them for that, but I do think they are good things, and I do think that if we want to develop the most mature relationship with psychedelics culturally and individually, there does have to be some sort of a technique-movement, the way there's been yoga and meditation movements generally.

I've heard that there are cool things happening with cannabis! There's a fellow named Hamilton Souther who was trained as an ayahuasquero who is using those techniques legally in America with cannabis, although he warns that he doesn't find cannabis and ayahuasca mix well - not that they're bad, they just don't mix well. Like orange juice and milk, heheh.

https://www.globenewswir...-Cannabis-Shamanism.html
 
Jupitor
#6 Posted : 12/14/2019 7:20:34 AM

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OneIsEros wrote:


I do not know if it will save humanity or establish a one, true religion on Earth - but I do think it will make our personal and cultural relationship with psychedelics develop to its highest potential, which would be good Smile

I sincerely hope the fate of the human race does not rest on any one thing, and if it had to, certainly not on us learning psychedelic yoga/shamanism Razz Bernie Sanders doesn't seem like a tripster, but I think he's on that "save humanity" kinda vibe already Razz

I've heard that there are cool things happening with cannabis! There's a fellow named Hamilton Souther who was trained as an ayahuasquero who is using those techniques legally in America with cannabis, although he warns that he doesn't find cannabis and ayahuasca mix well - not that they're bad, they just don't mix well. Like orange juice and milk, heheh.

https://www.globenewswir...Cannabis-Shamanism.html


Do I really need to clarify this?

I am not proposing the establishment of an organized psychedelic religion.

I am not proposing that the only way to save humanity is by everyone becoming shamans.

I am not proposing that psychedelics are the ONLY way to an enlightened state of mind.

I guess I wasn't clear in my language. I just strongly feel that the world is headed in a very bad direction. And I can't fathom a more reliable method for reaching higher states of consciousness than the intentional use of psychedelics.


 
OneIsEros
#7 Posted : 12/14/2019 7:29:09 AM
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Alright, didn't mean to offend. Many respectable people believe those sorts of things, including the late Nick Sand himself.
 
Jupitor
#8 Posted : 12/14/2019 7:37:48 AM

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What do you believe? If you're going to criticize one's viewpoint I think it fair to ask that you present yours. I'm all about new information. What am I missing?
 
OneIsEros
#9 Posted : 12/14/2019 8:09:58 AM
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Jupitor wrote:
What do you believe? If you're going to criticize one's viewpoint I think it fair to ask that you present yours. I'm all about new information. What am I missing?


Cards on the table? I'm a Buddhist. I think psychedelics present one avenue toward alleviating existential suffering, in universal (i.e. spiritual) and particular (i.e. medical) forms. I think that if an individual uses proper intentional techniques with psychedelics, it is more likely that both of these aims will be achieved in a deeper way than taking these substances without technique.

For particular global problems, such as creating global regulations to protect the environment, nuclear disarmament, etc., I think more efficient systems of democratic governance are a more likely solution than meditation or psychedelics. I do think psychedelics and meditation and related things can solve pretty deep and perhaps universal issues for individuals, I'm just not sure if they're helpful for global issues like climate change and others. I think on that front their impact is fairly minor. A guy like Bernie Sanders seems like a more direct route to effecting that sort of change, by doing things like taking money out of politics and thereby achieving a more efficient democratic system.

I could be underestimating their impact though. Nick Sand said he had no idea how psychedelics could save the world in an interview I saw once, but he did firmly believe they could and perhaps even already had. He thought distribution of psychedelics may have prevented nuclear war years ago. Maybe he was right.
 
xss27
#10 Posted : 12/14/2019 12:03:13 PM

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The last thing the world needs is more missions and missionaries. Individual consumption of psychedelics shouldn't be criminalised but I don't believe it should be promoted either; people should be able to access them if they wish but beyond that we don't need to make a culture out of it.

What are we trying to achieve here? You mentioned curing mental illness for example. No one has an accurate definition of what the mind, thoughts, or mental illness actually are beyond very basic conceptual theories.. and yet we're talking about curing it!? The first action should be to get those definitions and the second should be to go to the root causes, not applying band-aids (psychedelics) to symptoms.

People have to save themselves. Trying to force this stuff upon people is just a recipe for more suffering. If people are curious and want to save themselves they will find a way.. life itself will provide them help and opportunities. I also don't believe indigenous shamanism really offers much compatibility for the average western individual, it is a vastly different cultural operating system.

At the base of it all though is the feeling of the need to save something that doesn't saving. The only thing that needs saving is yourself.
 
OneIsEros
#11 Posted : 12/14/2019 1:07:15 PM
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Thanks for your contribution again, xss27.
 
OneIsEros
#12 Posted : 12/14/2019 1:32:50 PM
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xss27 wrote:
The last thing the world needs is more missions and missionaries. Individual consumption of psychedelics shouldn't be criminalised but I don't believe it should be promoted either; people should be able to access them if they wish but beyond that we don't need to make a culture out of it.

What are we trying to achieve here? You mentioned curing mental illness for example. No one has an accurate definition of what the mind, thoughts, or mental illness actually are beyond very basic conceptual theories.. and yet we're talking about curing it!? The first action should be to get those definitions and the second should be to go to the root causes, not applying band-aids (psychedelics) to symptoms.

People have to save themselves. Trying to force this stuff upon people is just a recipe for more suffering. If people are curious and want to save themselves they will find a way.. life itself will provide them help and opportunities. I also don't believe indigenous shamanism really offers much compatibility for the average western individual, it is a vastly different cultural operating system.

At the base of it all though is the feeling of the need to save something that doesn't saving. The only thing that needs saving is yourself.


To your credit, I appreciate your compassionate effort at saving me by bringing attention to how I need to be saved from my impulse to save. At its root, this effort on your part might be noble. However, delightfully, I agree with your thesis, and will out of compassion not attempt to persuade you otherwise, so that you may thereby be led to understanding from the things themselves. I hope that it may be so, anyway. I am sure that grappling is futile.
 
Achilles
#13 Posted : 12/14/2019 1:56:17 PM

I know more about the gods than your priest, ive seen them.


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Btw Eros... I wasn’t trying to hate on what you were saying last night... I more just got rushed through my post by my beautiful wife and wasn’t able to give it the polite respectful ending I would have liked to have given it. Anyways, I’m not against anything you were saying I just wanted to more or less show you the comparison between traditional and modern and point out that they’re not so different... anyways just wanted to throw that out there 💞
This guys ego ^
 
OneIsEros
#14 Posted : 12/14/2019 2:04:03 PM
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Achilles wrote:
Btw Eros... I wasn’t trying to hate on what you were saying last night... I more just got rushed through my post by my beautiful wife and wasn’t able to give it the polite respectful ending I would have liked to have given it. Anyways, I’m not against anything you were saying I just wanted to more or less show you the comparison between traditional and modern and point out that they’re not so different... anyways just wanted to throw that out there 💞


Yeah I know, I didn’t detect any hostility from you, I apologize if it sounded like that was what I thought! I was just clarifying what I meant when I used those terms ♥️😊
 
Nereus
#15 Posted : 12/14/2019 8:48:28 PM

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Interesting topic, OIE. To some degree, I can relate to the concept presented here, but I will continue on that later.

What has to be pointed out is that after being initiated in some of the psychedelic states, a spark will take place within the mind of the initiated, even the minutest one and, after its seed has been sown, there will rarely be cases of retrograde... Consciousness itself has the active purpose of evolving and, as such, beings gifted with consciousness will follow on the same principle. And, yes, in most cases there will be a desire to look deeper into these things. But in times as such when information is made widely and freely available, the greater percentage of people will try to quench their individual curiosities online.. and that's a good thing. But the good thing is not only the vast database that exist online regarding the subject of sacraments in general, but also that these individuals, unique in their own way, are all searching, in their own unique way Smile for the exact bits of information that fit their own, unique, experience. And that in its turn is extremely empowering. To my understanding of these things through time, I can only say that this is one of the most beneficial aspects in ones experience, being able to (having the freedom to search for) learn by oneself... Do not mind my analogy, but once knocking at these doors, doesn't the "middlemen concept" become pretty much useless ? Do you know what I mean?
I feel that culturally we have been stripped of our powers for far too long and, bits at a time, this unbalance has to be restored. Of course that one could stress the fact that, in times when all possible information is made widely and freely available, one might at least benefit from some guiding, still I could not disagree more because losing/finding ones self is all part of the experience and of the experiential nature of human life, more so when it comes to such high pitched experiences... it actually is the way we evolved.

Returning to what I said at the beginning, that I can relate, I just wanted to note that when venturing within deeper realms of the subconscious/inner worlds, past the fresh curiosities, the need of a suitable discipline (or WAY) of opening/entering the inner realms becomes very obvious (I would not split it into categories as in the OP, but that's just me). It becomes vividly obvious that without one such technique to apply there will be issues arising that are well known and feared by some of the psychonauts around here, specifically hyperslaps, closeouts/denied entrances, dark states, bad trips etc. Whilst in contrary to the lack of such a method, already developing/having one will likely open and enrich these experiences in very powerful aspects. Although, IME, these things are extremely unique, individual dependent and seem to be passed on only during the psychedelic experiences... in a sense, the only manner to know these things is through real practice, not so much in theory.. if you know what I mean. I could agree that at such point the need for some guidance might arise, but I feel this is where harm reduction should play its part... other than that, with all respect possible to all beings material and immaterial, cultures, sciences and arts of this world, please keep your yoga, your shamanism, drumming and singing, and please let the plants speak for themselves. This is the greatest favor you could do to anyone or anything regarding this subject. Let us not forget why we got here in the first place, or who the actual teachers are.
 
OneIsEros
#16 Posted : 12/15/2019 12:42:28 AM
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I would agree that you can not plan out spontaneity, as Nick Sand would phrase it. But I also agree with you that spontaneity and form go hand in hand Smile I take your point.

I think of it as akin to performing music; its life is spontaneity, but its manifestation is formal, which requires discipline, or else it is no longer a Dionysian creativity at the heart of Apollonian form. Creativity is not reducible to form, but it gives birth in form. A musician needs to know how to play. But if form was everything, Yngwie Malmsteen would be a more talented musician than Jimi Hendrix, and Malmsteen himself repudiates that. But if Hendrix never learned the form of guitar playing, there would have been no Hendrix.

At the moment, I find that there's not much knowledge about form among users of psychedelics. After the first two phases of 1) drug access via black market proliferation, and 2) institutional medicalization, I think learning form is stage 3 in cultural integration of these substances.

I think stage 4 will be legal over-the-counter access to psychedelics.
 
Tony6Strings
#17 Posted : 12/15/2019 2:41:54 AM

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Who is qualified to say what is and isn't correct form for using entheogens? This is something we each learn during our own walk with these compounds.

Regarding Hamilton Souther, I watched a documentary on his Ayahuasca retreat, Blue Morpho. Is it correct form to charge people $2,390 for a week of ayahuasca sessions?
olympus mon wrote:
You need to hit it with intention to get where you want to be!

"We have arrived at truth, and now we find truth is a mystery- a play of joy, creation, and energy. This is source. This is the mystic touchstone that heals and renews. This is the beginning again. This is entheogenic." -Nicholas Sand
 
OneIsEros
#18 Posted : 12/15/2019 3:59:21 AM
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Tony6Strings wrote:
Who is qualified to say what is and isn't correct form for using entheogens? This is something we each learn during our own walk with these compounds.

Regarding Hamilton Souther, I watched a documentary on his Ayahuasca retreat, Blue Morpho. Is it correct form to charge people $2,390 for a week of ayahuasca sessions?


Ethically? Maybe not. But from what I understand, ayahuasca shamans aren’t spiritual role models, they’re more like psychic surgeons. You can pay them to hurt or heal. It’s kind of amoral.

I’m not talking about correct form in a metaphysical theurgic sense, I just mean techniques that will deepen the visionary experience. It’s a pretty open field about what can do that, but you can also teach various forms of activity that will accomplish that. A common thread among the various techniques seems to be repetition for long periods of time. It seems biological.

I see from your signature that you also like Nick Sand. I’m just saying that he had a good insight that it would be nice to see developed.
 
Tony6Strings
#19 Posted : 12/15/2019 5:42:23 AM

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Yeah I love Nick Sand. The article you quoted from is one of my favorite pieces of writing about the molecule, along with "A wee bit more about dmt". Check out the film "The Sunshine Makers" if you haven't already. His vision of what the psychedelic future could look like, some of it sounds a hell of a lot like the DMT Nexus.
olympus mon wrote:
You need to hit it with intention to get where you want to be!

"We have arrived at truth, and now we find truth is a mystery- a play of joy, creation, and energy. This is source. This is the mystic touchstone that heals and renews. This is the beginning again. This is entheogenic." -Nicholas Sand
 
OneIsEros
#20 Posted : 12/15/2019 5:59:27 AM
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Tony6Strings wrote:
Yeah I love Nick Sand. The article you quoted from is one of my favorite pieces of writing about the molecule, along with "A wee bit more about dmt". Check out the film "The Sunshine Makers" if you haven't already. His vision of what the psychedelic future could look like, some of it sounds a hell of a lot like the DMT Nexus.


Love that documentary, the woman who made it is from my hometown Smile
 
 
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