DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 94 Joined: 19-Mar-2008 Last visit: 17-Dec-2019 Location: glasgow
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Hi there! Long time since I've been around these parts. Has anyone every used pachycereus pringlei as an entheogen? My local cactus seller has quit trading and is selling everything off at wholesale prices. I already have one about 20-22" tall. I'm toying with the idea of buying four or five of them. Sorry I forget how to attach a picture kn this site. lemmy attached the following image(s):  15742310498251522819254905358771.jpg (1,239kb) downloaded 274 time(s).
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Long live the world in peace, prosperity, and freedom from suffering
Posts: 1299 Joined: 24-Sep-2018 Last visit: 07-Apr-2020 Location: I see you Mara
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Can't say I have, does that even have mescaline? Beautiful balcony! You dont have strong winds there do you? Cacti might fall Todo lo que quiero es que me recuerdes siempre así...amándote. Mantay kuna kayadidididi~~Ayahuasca shamudididi. Silence ○ Shiva ◇ eternal Purusha. What we have done is establish the rule of authority in silence. Silence is the administrator of the universe. In silence is the script of Natural Law, eternally guiding the destiny of everyone. The Joy of Giving ♡See the job. Do the job. Stay out of the misery.♡May this world be established with a sense of well-being and happiness. May all beings in all worlds be blessed with peace, contentment, and freedom.This mass of stress visible in the here & now has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.
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Dreamoar
Posts: 4711 Joined: 10-Sep-2009 Last visit: 16-Mar-2024 Location: Rocky mountain high
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This is a really fascinating specimen. The Shulgin's research group worked with it and it is 100% without a doubt psychedelic in it's effect, however when Sasha analyzed it, there was no Mescaline to be found. As I recall his thinking was that the isoquinoline alkaloids were likely responsible for the effect. This is certainly an area worthy of further exploration.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 673 Joined: 04-Jul-2015 Last visit: 12-Feb-2024
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That's a handsome beast. Buy 4 or 5, bioassay one and report back. You have your orders.  My flesh moves, like liquid. My mind is cut loose.
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Boundary condition
Posts: 8617 Joined: 30-Aug-2008 Last visit: 16-Apr-2024 Location: square root of minus one
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I'd definitely buy several if they're at a good price. Pachycereus pringlei is such a handsome cactus. The young spines are pink when they emerge - I have endless photos of this! Attached is a picture of one of my specimens. Not sure about the alkaloid levels, Keeper Trout's work on cacti and their alkaloids is the place to look. downwardsfromzero attached the following image(s): IMG_0310.JPG (4,174kb) downloaded 238 time(s). “There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work." ― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 613 Joined: 14-Oct-2018 Last visit: 30-Jun-2023
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That reddish/pink color to the newly emerging spines is a really important characteristic for differentiating Pachycereus pringlei (Cardon or False Saguaro) from Carnegiea gigantea (Saguaro). Because otherwise the two species look almost identical when young. Its funny because they are so easy to tell apart when full grown. IT WAS ALL A DREAM
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 94 Joined: 19-Mar-2008 Last visit: 17-Dec-2019 Location: glasgow
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I intend to buy one other specimen to do some proper research with during my holiday in January. I'll be emigrating next year, to where I'm not sure yet but I'm definitely emigrating so buying a few is out of the question until I know my plans. Have you ever heard of cactousca? Wrap your psychenoutical heads round this news flash of hope. https://azarius.net/news...-psychedelic-discovered/
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 94 Joined: 19-Mar-2008 Last visit: 17-Dec-2019 Location: glasgow
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FranLover wrote:Can't say I have, does that even have mescaline? Beautiful balcony! You dont have strong winds there do you? Cacti might fall Thanks! No they're perfectly safe there for now, monsoon season here in Vietnam has just ground to a halt. It doesn't have mescaline in it but it has many other goodies. Have a read at the article I posted and prepare to have your mind blown!
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 94 Joined: 19-Mar-2008 Last visit: 17-Dec-2019 Location: glasgow
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I should also add that Shulgins first explorations with this cactus were off putting to say the least.
If anyone has or knows where to get access to his notes regarding this, please post a link!
Penethylamines and an MAOI combination is not something I want to go fumbling around in the dark with ( not on a Tuesday anyway hshaha).
I wonder what approach he took after the bad experience with the knowledge of what it contained?
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 600 Joined: 13-Dec-2013 Last visit: 11-Jun-2023
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Lemmy I would be very interested to hear your experience if you do decide to try it. I looked through pihkal and tihkal and couldn't find any information on their experiences with it..
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Dreamoar
Posts: 4711 Joined: 10-Sep-2009 Last visit: 16-Mar-2024 Location: Rocky mountain high
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I'm pretty sure it's this talk: Psychedelic Salon 025 - Cacti: A Discourse by Sasha ShulginIt might have been in one of the Mind States or Ask the Shulgins talks though, been a while since I listened to these.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 401 Joined: 31-May-2014 Last visit: 30-Dec-2023 Location: The confluence
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downwardsfromzero wrote: Keeper Trout's work on cacti and their alkaloids is the place to look. Page 55 of Trout's Cactus Chemistry https://www.anoniem.org/...stry_2013_Light.pdf?dl=0"We dance round in a ring and suppose,
while the secret sits in the middle and knows." Robert Frost
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Boundary condition
Posts: 8617 Joined: 30-Aug-2008 Last visit: 16-Apr-2024 Location: square root of minus one
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Direct link: https://troutsnotes.com/...Chemistry_2013_Light.pdf “There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work." ― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
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Long live the world in peace, prosperity, and freedom from suffering
Posts: 1299 Joined: 24-Sep-2018 Last visit: 07-Apr-2020 Location: I see you Mara
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Quote:'What the Hell is C. Gigantea?' This, my friends, is the famous saguaro cactus of the Sonoran Desert. As a rebuttal for any skepticism or accusation of idiocy, I provide this quote from the wise Alexander Shulgin in reference to a similar cactus, P. pringlei: 'The establishment of its human pharmacology requires that it be consumed by man.'
Thats an erowid trip report on C gigantea, but I could not find on Pringlei. Its rather intersting. Hope u can bioassy it and let us know. Be safe. Cactus and motorhead are a pair made in heaven Todo lo que quiero es que me recuerdes siempre así...amándote. Mantay kuna kayadidididi~~Ayahuasca shamudididi. Silence ○ Shiva ◇ eternal Purusha. What we have done is establish the rule of authority in silence. Silence is the administrator of the universe. In silence is the script of Natural Law, eternally guiding the destiny of everyone. The Joy of Giving ♡See the job. Do the job. Stay out of the misery.♡May this world be established with a sense of well-being and happiness. May all beings in all worlds be blessed with peace, contentment, and freedom.This mass of stress visible in the here & now has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 94 Joined: 19-Mar-2008 Last visit: 17-Dec-2019 Location: glasgow
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Thanks for the links guys. I downloaded the book ad am currently chewing my way through it. There are too many other plants I have or have access to mentioned so I’ve been engrossed for the past couple of days. The rabbit hole is extremely deep with pachycereus Pringlei so I’m also lost down there at the moment too. Does anyone live in the Baja region in California or know anything about the ancient civilisations that existed there? It would be interesting to see these petroglyphs of the Cardon. Google isn't exactly throwing any leads my way. Researching each of the chemicals is painstaking as it’s a bit of a chemical soup but I do intend to bio essay it at the nd of January when I'm on holiday. I've spoken to someone with personal experience (so they say) and from what I gather from them if true, you can develop a tolerane pretty quickly with it so the six days I have intended to bioessy it over might not be enough. More research is needed, there are many boxes to tick before I get to that stage but so far a fresh 50g dose looks below threshold so if I can, I might squeeze a night in to do that before January. If 50g is in fact below threshold thatgivs me near a month to let any tolerance that might have developed go. And if there are no negative effects, I could potentially start the bioessy properly at double that dose. Anyway, for now I'll slip back down the rabbit hole and see what I can learn in preperation.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 94 Joined: 19-Mar-2008 Last visit: 17-Dec-2019 Location: glasgow
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Spiralout wrote:Lemmy I would be very interested to hear your experience if you do decide to try it. I looked through pihkal and tihkal and couldn't find any information on their experiences with it.. Did you read the link I posted? That has a snippet of one of their ễpriences with ít. It's the same report as in the book (linked too). It seems research on this cactus hasn't moved on since then, and I think that was a way ack in 2005. They certainly don't give enough information about it though.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 613 Joined: 14-Oct-2018 Last visit: 30-Jun-2023
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This cactus and Saguaro both have been rumored to be active for quite awhile now. Even though there is little info out there, more than likely both species have some level of psychoactivity. In fact many species of non-Trichocereus and non-Lophophora cacti probably have some psychoactivity. A lot more research is still needed. I'm looking forward to any new info that can be discovered here. All the best with your research and thanks for sharing! IT WAS ALL A DREAM
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 94 Joined: 19-Mar-2008 Last visit: 17-Dec-2019 Location: glasgow
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There are plenty of scientific papers out there with research on many of the individual alkaloids (which I've been reading but is a huge rabbit hole). I'm surprised shukgin never elaborated more on his experience and research with this cactus. There surely has to be more out there than what he left on it.
3,4-Dimethoxyphenethylamine is a rabbit hole in itself. Four d in the urine of schizophrenics. Theres a lot of research on this chemical alone out there.
Please if you have anything interesting on this cactus or any of the chemicals within please share.
I'm also interested in proof of its use as an entheogen by the ancient Baja people if anyone has anything.
Cheers!
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 613 Joined: 14-Oct-2018 Last visit: 30-Jun-2023
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Ariocarpus is another genus of cacti that is also reported to have psychoactive effects. The problem is that once you get outside of Lophophora and Trichocereus then if mescaline is present it is usually only there in tiny amounts. There are other less well understood compounds that may have effects. But people always seem to fall back on Peyote and San Pedro because they are better understood and the effects are strong and classically psychedelic. Why not bioassay your cactus and report the effects to us? I once attempted to eat the dried outer green flesh of Saguaro but the taste was so intensely bitter, much more so than Trichocereus, that I abandonned the experiment. Trichocereus are so widely available and fast growing that I never seriously explored other types of cacti. IT WAS ALL A DREAM
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Boundary condition
Posts: 8617 Joined: 30-Aug-2008 Last visit: 16-Apr-2024 Location: square root of minus one
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Several of the other 'peyote substitute' species have the reputation of causing insanity! Their names in the local language, if I understand correctly, are synonyms for insanity even - 'wichowaka' springs to mind, in particular. And in one of Trout's works he describes an experience with another of these cacti (Coryphantha sp.?) of purported psychoactivity which left him 'feeling weird' for a good couple of weeks. This seems to be sound reason why mescaline is the preferred dominant alkaloid. Here's a copy-and-paste job from Trout's notes for P. pringlei alkaloids:
Quote:Pachycereus pringlei (S.Wats ) Br. & R
DMPEA:
Crockett & Shulgin 1999 (Personal communication;
unpublished findings) [“not yet rigidly proven”] gc-ms
N-Methylmescaline:
Shulgin (personal communication) gc-ms.
Shulgin suspected this alkaloid to be the active component
in the cactus Pachycereus pringlei. He suspected that it was
only enabled to be active due to the co-presence of an MAOI.
Weberidine:
Unger et al. 1980 reported its presence in the above [...]
species but we have to question their conclusion as it is
in total conflict with the rest of the literature. Despite its
incredible sensitivity & immense value in phytochemical
screenings, MIKES has serious problems in the identifica-
tion of numerous alkaloids.
Heliamine:
Mata & McLaughlin 1980d (0.017% by dry wt as HCl; 5
mg from 30 gm) tlc, ms, ir
Lemaireocereine:
Mata & McLaughlin 1980d (traces) tlc
N-Methylheliamine:
Crockett & Shulgin 1999 (Personal communication with
Shulgin; unpublished findings?) gc-ms
Unger et al. 1980 reported (see comments under L. schottii
entry) MIKES
Carnegine:
Crockett & Shulgin 1999 (Personal communication; unpub-
lished findings) gc-ms
Tehuanine:
Mata & McLaughlin 1980d (0.05% dry wt. as HCl; 15 mg
from 30 gm) mp, ci-ms, ir, tlc
Tehuanine-N-oxide:
Pummangura et al. 1982b (0.014% yield by dry wt.) tlc,
mp, mmp, ir, nmr, ci-ms, ei-ms. [They also showed it to be
of natural occurrence.]
Weberine:
Mata & McLaughlin 1980d (trace) tlc
NOTE:
Lophocereus schottii (Engelmann) Britton & Rose
Unger et al. 1980 This report needs confirmation. Unless
MIKES just fails entirely for the 1-Isobutyl-substituted
THIQs, their results are in direct and complete conflict with
the rest of the work published for this species.]
References
Crockett, Earl & Alexander T. (“Sasha”) Shulgin 1999 (Personal communication; unpublished findings)
Mata, Rachel & Jerry L. McLaughlin (1980)d Planta Medica, 38: 180-182. “Cactus Alkaloids. XLV. Tetrahydroisoquinolines from the Mexican Cereoid Pachycereus pringlei.”
Pummangura, S. et al. (1982)b Phytochemistry, 21 (9): 2375-2377. “Two Simple Tetrahydroisoquinoline Alkaloid N-oxides from Cacti.” (S. Pummangura, Y.A.H. Mohamed, C.-J. Chang & J.L. McLaughlin)
Unger, S.E. et al. (1980) Journal of Natural Products, 43 (2): 288-293. “Chemotaxonomy of Columnar Mexican Cacti by Mass Spectrometry/Mass Spectrometry” (S.E. Unger, R.G. Cooks, R. Mata & J.L. McLaughlin)
“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work." ― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
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