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passionflower and bundleflower Options
 
BundleflowerPower
#1 Posted : 8/20/2019 11:51:56 PM

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I tried a passiflora incarnata and desmanthus illinioensis brew the other night. After drinking traditional ayahuasca in ceremony, and some of the analog brews, I have to say that the combination of bundleflower and passionflower and I tiny bit of chamber bitter was more like traditional ayahuasca than acacia confusa and Syrian rue say. There was a definite synergy which was similar to what I experienced on traditional aya. I have a theory in me that it’s that those two plants grow naturally in my area. Perhaps it’s a resonance thing with the land itself. Just thought I would make it known.
 

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Ferrum
#2 Posted : 8/21/2019 5:49:03 AM

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I think you are on to something . I've been wanting to add local trees to my brews for some years now to add a local flare but have not and it would seem that passionflower and bundle flower would be the n. American equal to such a spiritual brew in terms of plant locality and naturalization
 
twitchy
#3 Posted : 8/26/2019 6:05:58 AM

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I think Bundleflower is going to be the future for temperate zone psychonautica. In my limited experience with it, seems very potent and extremely hardy. I've hit these guys with a weedeater only to come back in a couple weeks and see them coming back with a vengeance. They survive subzero winters, seed heavily, grow fast... I have no idea why they don't get more attention, maybe it's better this way Thumbs up
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Loveall
#4 Posted : 8/26/2019 12:03:15 PM

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What about the question of gramine? Until we understand if/how much toxicity is a concern, I would avoid this plant in a simple brew.

I'm not making a strong statement that it is bad, just that I think there is a risk we don't understand yet.

If anyone has more info on gramine and humans it would be great to hear.
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
twitchy
#5 Posted : 8/26/2019 4:30:57 PM

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Loveall wrote:
What about the question of gramine? Until we understand if/how much toxicity is a concern, I would avoid this plant in a simple brew.

I'm not making a strong statement that it is bad, just that I think there is a risk we don't understand yet.

If anyone has more info on gramine and humans it would be great to hear.


I thought that gramine was insoluble in water, but I guess it would depend on what form it takes in the plant, any clues on that one? I also thought that gramine would be more apt to be in the aerial parts of a plant?
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DreadedShaman
#6 Posted : 8/26/2019 4:50:33 PM

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Interesting,
Have you tried extracting bundle flower? All the reports that I've read on the Nexus point to little activity or negligible alk content.

But you've caught my attention because I would be very interested in a cold hardy source plant I can have in my yard.
 
twitchy
#7 Posted : 8/26/2019 5:19:09 PM

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DreadedShaman wrote:
Interesting,
Have you tried extracting bundle flower? All the reports that I've read on the Nexus point to little activity or negotiable alk content.

But you've caught my attention because I would be very interested in a cold hardy source plant I can have in my yard.


I'm not a real big fan of extractions, but I think that folks have been reluctant to seek out other sources because of the relative ease for STB's with MHRB and the easy 'clean alk' profiles of ACRB. Eventually, either ecological impacts or legal implications will shift the focus towards other viable sources whether we like it or not. This ultimately will be a good thing though, DMT in it's various forms is nearly everywhere and finding a temperate zone source will open the doors to alot of people. I personally think Bundleflower has been underestimated, and it's likely to be some seasonal or environmental factors that affect alkaloid content which just hasn't been turned over yet. Some folks remain skeptical, but Terrence McKenna repeatedly claimed that this plant had the highest DMT content of any plant they studied, perhaps he found a sample growing in a particular soil or condition... Even at it's lowest, it still rivals Psychotria and you can buy literal tote sacks of seed on the cheap from agricultural suppliers.
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Loveall
#8 Posted : 8/26/2019 6:01:59 PM

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twitchy wrote:
Loveall wrote:
What about the question of gramine? Until we understand if/how much toxicity is a concern, I would avoid this plant in a simple brew.

I'm not making a strong statement that it is bad, just that I think there is a risk we don't understand yet.

If anyone has more info on gramine and humans it would be great to hear.


I thought that gramine was insoluble in water, but I guess it would depend on what form it takes in the plant, any clues on that one? I also thought that gramine would be more apt to be in the aerial parts of a plant?


It should be similar to DMT, but more polar because of the shorter carbon chain. If it was in the plant it would make it into and acidic brew.

Here there is some discussion on the topic. Honestly, while we learn more, your report is interesting. It fits into the voices that have said gramine does not appear to affect humans severely in concentrations seen in these plants.

I don't think we know enough yet to be sure though.
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
twitchy
#9 Posted : 8/26/2019 7:50:45 PM

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Loveall wrote:
twitchy wrote:
Loveall wrote:
What about the question of gramine? Until we understand if/how much toxicity is a concern, I would avoid this plant in a simple brew.

I'm not making a strong statement that it is bad, just that I think there is a risk we don't understand yet.

If anyone has more info on gramine and humans it would be great to hear.


I thought that gramine was insoluble in water, but I guess it would depend on what form it takes in the plant, any clues on that one? I also thought that gramine would be more apt to be in the aerial parts of a plant?


It should be similar to DMT, but more polar because of the shorter carbon chain. If it was in the plant it would make it into and acidic brew.

Here there is some discussion on the topic. Honestly, while we learn more, your report is interesting. It fits into the voices that have said gramine does not appear to affect humans severely in concentrations seen in these plants.

I don't think we know enough yet to be sure though.


I can attest to successfully, orally using the rootbark from two or three FRESH roots of two year old samples (using Rue as the MAOI) with no noticeable toxicity aside from a purge which I attributed to using ground whole rue seeds. I know it's poor data as there was no measurements, and small amounts of other admixture plants were used, but it was a potent experience and my brain didn't turn blue (that I know of). Big grin
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skoobysnax
#10 Posted : 8/27/2019 5:07:49 AM

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I sent a sample in for testing once. Rootbark extracted q21q21 style and pulled with iso. Low dmt, no gramine but these were one year plants. Fall harvest. Question for BFP about ratios. Both of these plants grow in abundance on my property.
I drink the tea every night but not on amounts that i would say cause MAOI inhibition.

Really hoping to find some Desmanthus leptobulus
Marijuana, LSD, psilocybin, and DMT they all changed the way I see
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twitchy
#11 Posted : 8/27/2019 5:18:10 AM

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skoobysnax wrote:
I sent a sample in for testing once. Rootbark extracted q21q21 style and pulled with iso. Low dmt, no gramine but these were one year plants. Fall harvest. Question for BFP about ratios. Both of these plants grow in abundance on my property.
I drink the tea every night but not on amounts that i would say cause MAOI inhibition.

Really hoping to find some Desmanthus leptobulus


I have some Desmanthus leptobulus seeds, if all goes well next year, I'll hook a few folks up.
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downwardsfromzero
#12 Posted : 8/27/2019 8:33:33 PM

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twitchy wrote:
[...][...] my brain didn't turn blue (that I know of). Big grin

Even if it did turn out that your brain was blue, how would we ever know that it wasn't already blue before you tried the brew? Maybe this would be your reason for having an affinity with the blue Desmanthus!Very happy
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality."
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
 
twitchy
#13 Posted : 8/27/2019 9:52:36 PM

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downwardsfromzero wrote:
twitchy wrote:
[...][...] my brain didn't turn blue (that I know of). Big grin

Even if it did turn out that your brain was blue, how would we ever know that it wasn't already blue before you tried the brew? Maybe this would be your reason for having an affinity with the blue Desmanthus!Very happy


Big grin
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grollum
#14 Posted : 8/27/2019 10:03:14 PM

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BundleflowerPower wrote:
I tried a passiflora incarnata and desmanthus illinioensis brew the other night. After drinking traditional ayahuasca in ceremony, and some of the analog brews, I have to say that the combination of bundleflower and passionflower and I tiny bit of chamber bitter was more like traditional ayahuasca than acacia confusa and Syrian rue say. There was a definite synergy which was similar to what I experienced on traditional aya. I have a theory in me that it’s that those two plants grow naturally in my area. Perhaps it’s a resonance thing with the land itself. Just thought I would make it known.


Can you give some info how much of each was ingested?
 
BundleflowerPower
#15 Posted : 8/28/2019 8:12:08 AM

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twitchy wrote:
I think Bundleflower is going to be the future for temperate zone psychonautica. In my limited experience with it, seems very potent and extremely hardy. I've hit these guys with a weedeater only to come back in a couple weeks and see them coming back with a vengeance. They survive subzero winters, seed heavily, grow fast... I have no idea why they don't get more attention, maybe it's better this way Thumbs up


I think there’s more of them than just bundleflower. Maybe some temperate trees create dmt within them selves, like pine for example, and hickory , or oak. And there’s probably more than those whether or not those are like that. And that’s just trees.
 
BundleflowerPower
#16 Posted : 8/28/2019 8:13:43 AM

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DreadedShaman wrote:
Interesting,
Have you tried extracting bundle flower? All the reports that I've read on the Nexus point to little activity or negligible alk content.

But you've caught my attention because I would be very interested in a cold hardy source plant I can have in my yard.


Yes. I’ve created changa with bundleflower.
 
BundleflowerPower
#17 Posted : 8/28/2019 8:51:25 AM

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grollum wrote:
BundleflowerPower wrote:
I tried a passiflora incarnata and desmanthus illinioensis brew the other night. After drinking traditional ayahuasca in ceremony, and some of the analog brews, I have to say that the combination of bundleflower and passionflower and I tiny bit of chamber bitter was more like traditional ayahuasca than acacia confusa and Syrian rue say. There was a definite synergy which was similar to what I experienced on traditional aya. I have a theory in me that it’s that those two plants grow naturally in my area. Perhaps it’s a resonance thing with the land itself. Just thought I would make it known.


Can you give some info how much of each was ingested?


For bundleflower, it was 3 or 4 whole roots of first year plants harvested during or just after the flowers bloomed and before seed pods matured or there about. I brewed the whole roots, cut up in pieces. For passionflower I harvested good bit of leaves yet didn’t weigh them, or dry them out. I brewed them fresh. Maybe 20 leaves and the stems they were growing on if I had to guess.
 
downwardsfromzero
#18 Posted : 8/28/2019 6:33:07 PM

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BundleflowerPower wrote:
twitchy wrote:
I think Bundleflower is going to be the future for temperate zone psychonautica. In my limited experience with it, seems very potent and extremely hardy. I've hit these guys with a weedeater only to come back in a couple weeks and see them coming back with a vengeance. They survive subzero winters, seed heavily, grow fast... I have no idea why they don't get more attention, maybe it's better this way Thumbs up


I think there’s more of them than just bundleflower. Maybe some temperate trees create dmt within them selves, like pine for example, and hickory , or oak. And there’s probably more than those whether or not those are like that. And that’s just trees.

I seem to recall having seen a reference to Acer saccharinum (or something very similar) having been found to contain DMT although I've been unable to locate it at present. Parallel universe/Shulgin apocrypha??
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality."
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
 
twitchy
#19 Posted : 8/28/2019 7:23:22 PM

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downwardsfromzero wrote:
BundleflowerPower wrote:
twitchy wrote:
I think Bundleflower is going to be the future for temperate zone psychonautica. In my limited experience with it, seems very potent and extremely hardy. I've hit these guys with a weedeater only to come back in a couple weeks and see them coming back with a vengeance. They survive subzero winters, seed heavily, grow fast... I have no idea why they don't get more attention, maybe it's better this way Thumbs up


I think there’s more of them than just bundleflower. Maybe some temperate trees create dmt within them selves, like pine for example, and hickory , or oak. And there’s probably more than those whether or not those are like that. And that’s just trees.

I seem to recall having seen a reference to Acer saccharinum (or something very similar) having been found to contain DMT although I've been unable to locate it at present. Parallel universe/Shulgin apocrypha??


You may be right, found this one with google...

https://www.semanticscho...ds-of-Acer-saccharinum-(the-Silver-Pachter-Zacharias/e1894e8538fe5d8b501795da129237f063456d23
Indole Alkaloids of Acer saccharinum (the Silver Maple), Dictyoloma incanescens, Piptadenia colubrina, and Mimosa hostilis

Irwin J. Pachter, David E. Zacharias, Oscar Ribeiro •
Published 1959 •
DOI: 10.1021/jo01091a032
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downwardsfromzero
#20 Posted : 8/28/2019 10:33:51 PM

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twitchy wrote:
[...]
You may be right, found this one with google...

https://www.semanticscho...ds-of-Acer-saccharinum-(the-Silver-Pachter-Zacharias/e1894e8538fe5d8b501795da129237f063456d23
Indole Alkaloids of Acer saccharinum (the Silver Maple), Dictyoloma incanescens, Piptadenia colubrina, and Mimosa hostilis

Irwin J. Pachter, David E. Zacharias, Oscar Ribeiro •
Published 1959 •
DOI: 10.1021/jo01091a032

But, alas:
Pachter et al, 1959 wrote:
When we learned, through qualitative
tests, that alkaloids occur in the leaves of the silver
maple tree, Acer saccharinum L. it was of consider-
able interest to us to learn their nature.
Extraction of 3.75 kg. of dried, ground maple
leaves with ethanol and concentration of the
alkaloid gave a mass of large crystals in 0.05%
yield. The ultraviolet spectrum of the material
was almost identical with those of 3-substituted
indoles such as gramine and tryptamine. Upon
recrystallization from benzene, the alkaloid melted
at 131-132° and was found to be identical with a
synthetic specimen of the alkaloid gramine (I).
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality."
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
 
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