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Dmt oxide, slightly more mellow or terrifying? Options
 
Asher7
#1 Posted : 6/14/2019 5:00:32 AM

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In reading up on things I’ve heard it said that dmt oxide is also psychoactive and a little more mellow than dmt, and I’ve heard others say it can make the trip more bizarre and terrifying. Is this all just the user’s head determining things or is there something concrete on how it affects the experience?

People who vape using a sub ohm coil, have you had any issue with residue collecting on your coils and being problematic? Also, what are your procedures on when you clean/rewick? Can you vape some, put the tank away for a month and pull it back out for use without requiring cleaning? What is the longest you would let it set for without cleaning/rewicking? Any issues with oxide forming?
 

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Kable
#2 Posted : 6/14/2019 6:05:18 AM
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Asher7 wrote:
In reading up on things I’ve heard it said that dmt oxide is also psychoactive and a little more mellow than dmt, and I’ve heard others say it can make the trip more bizarre and terrifying.

In my experience it gets bizarre just before it gets terrifying.

Quote:
Is this all just the user’s head determining things or is there something concrete on how it affects the experience?

Feeling a chemical burn on your lips and throat after a witchy/damnation type trip, repeatedly, seems fairly concrete to me, but it wouldn't be that hard to set up a double blind test if you know some brave volunteers.

Quote:
People who vape using a sub ohm coil, have you had any issue with residue collecting on your coils and being problematic?

Absolutely, yes.

Quote:
Also, what are your procedures on when you clean/rewick?

Currently I'm using a ccell, thinner mixtures ~250-300 mg/0.5 cc and disposing of my 0.5 cc cartridge after one use.

Quote:
Can you vape some, put the tank away for a month and pull it back out for use without requiring cleaning? What is the longest you would let it set for without cleaning/rewicking? Any issues with oxide forming?


My ccells are a little different from your kind of vape but I expect the answers are; no, maybe 10-15 breakthroughs, and yes.

Actually I'm not sure that oxide is the problem. It might be just burnt DMT (I don't know if burnt is oxide or if resin is oxide) as I have noticed the same problem with my GVG if the DMT gets too hot, or if I don't keep the stainless steel pad clean. Based on my experience, and then internet research, I suspect a large percentage of hellish rides are due to burnt DMT.
 
Asher7
#3 Posted : 6/14/2019 2:47:08 PM

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Since you have experience you can help me define some things. Would acute panic attack be considered within the range of hellish in terms of a vaped dmt experience? It seems like there’s no way around intensity, so what are the attributes of an experience that is hellish as compared to one that isn’t? Optimal sounds like beautiful landscapes and possibly entities that are happy to see you. Would hellish be something that comes out as bad mentally, or a mad entity, a chaotic trip etc? What exactly is setting it apart from a non hellish trip? It sounds like it would be obvious but considering how people take things different ways, what would make a trip hellish as compared to one that just didn’t sit well with a person?
 
Kable
#4 Posted : 6/14/2019 9:31:03 PM
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I would think you could define it as a panic attack, but the first time it happened to me I was googling what a psychotic break was. I don't think it has anything to do with fear/psychology as I had over 200 DMT trips (mostly breakthroughs) the first time it happened. And being worried after the first time it happened didn't make it happen again, even going the very next day. The dark trips weren't necessarily more intense, nor the dose higher.

Hellish is like you literally feel the presence of evil, and you literally feel like your soul was just damned/drained by a dark entity that is in your room, not in hyperspace. Optimal is all beautiful, one with nature, one with the cosmos, yadda yadda yadda.

Near as I can tell burnt spice is THE common denominator. However, I'm also thinking the good fairies appreciate cleanliness of home and body. Unclean trash spirits and trolls the opposite.

What's your experience with the oxide/resin?
 
jiva
#5 Posted : 6/14/2019 9:45:25 PM

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maybe not the core of this subject, but it might be related
i had multiple experiences with weird trips. this only happened when i did the following: i did put too much spice in my GVB, did not manage to vape all in one session, hours later i decide to vape the rest of it.
when i did this the experiences turned too very weird non typical dmt trips.

i had the theory that heating the spice helps oxidize what is left. so the second time the amount of dmt oxide is higher and this creates these non typical dmt experiences for me

did anybody else experience something similar
 
Kable
#6 Posted : 6/14/2019 9:59:57 PM
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jiva wrote:

i had the theory that heating the spice helps oxidize what is left. so the second time the amount of dmt oxide is higher and this creates these non typical dmt experiences for me

did anybody else experience something similar

I think your theory is exactly correct, and is the same thing that happens with the e-juice. I have seen that exact thing happen with my GVG. I clean my GVG SS pad after every use now. I did some research on "dark trips and evil entities" and a lot of people incidentally reported exactly what you are saying using a bong, or whatnot, wondering why good trips suddenly went bad when nothing had changed. Burnt DMT build up in the pipe changed.

And then most people chime in citing set setting and a need to integrate...
 
Asher7
#7 Posted : 6/15/2019 1:36:14 AM

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Kable wrote:
I would think you could define it as a panic attack, but the first time it happened to me I was googling what a psychotic break was. I don't think it has anything to do with fear/psychology as I had over 200 DMT trips (mostly breakthroughs) the first time it happened. And being worried after the first time it happened didn't make it happen again, even going the very next day. The dark trips weren't necessarily more intense, nor the dose higher.

Hellish is like you literally feel the presence of evil, and you literally feel like your soul was just damned/drained by a dark entity that is in your room, not in hyperspace. Optimal is all beautiful, one with nature, one with the cosmos, yadda yadda yadda.

Near as I can tell burnt spice is THE common denominator. However, I'm also thinking the good fairies appreciate cleanliness of home and body. Unclean trash spirits and trolls the opposite.

What's your experience with the oxide/resin?


Thank You!! That’s what I was looking to hear. Especially the part about it not being in hyperspace. Actual evil, similar to experiences I’ve had during lucid dreaming and in particular “sleep paralysis” even though in my experience sleep paralysis doesn’t always involve be paralyzed, but all the rest that goes with it.

@ kable! Thank you for posting that thread on the other site.

“And then most people chime in citing set setting and a need to integrate...”

Exactly, what I’m curious about is not due to set and setting. I’m glad people are saying what they’re saying. It’s an odd relief in a way.
 
jiva
#8 Posted : 6/15/2019 12:10:59 PM

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Kable wrote:
jiva wrote:

i had the theory that heating the spice helps oxidize what is left. so the second time the amount of dmt oxide is higher and this creates these non typical dmt experiences for me

did anybody else experience something similar

I think your theory is exactly correct, and is the same thing that happens with the e-juice. I have seen that exact thing happen with my GVG. I clean my GVG SS pad after every use now. I did some research on "dark trips and evil entities" and a lot of people incidentally reported exactly what you are saying using a bong, or whatnot, wondering why good trips suddenly went bad when nothing had changed. Burnt DMT build up in the pipe changed.

And then most people chime in citing set setting and a need to integrate...




there does seem to be more to this than just DMT Oxide,
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...amp;m=919104#post919104

benzyme wrote:
interestingly enough, I've analyzed re-x'd vaped dmt , and saw no indication that an oxide was formed, at least from the HPLC and mass spectra. The pyrrole group of indole is what is susceptible to autooxidation, as even tryptamine turns yellow. the indole can also undergo pi-bond rearrangement. the other odd phenomena is the polymorphism.



 
Kable
#9 Posted : 6/15/2019 8:52:01 PM
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Jiva, what you say sounds right to me. I read your description on the other thread about the bazaar trips and I agree with the feeling that's very different from "normal" DMT. It sounds very much the same as what I was calling "derealization" in my notes. It wasn't necessarily horrid or dark, but I think that's what happens on the way to a dark trip if you don't clean out your device ASAP. I'm not sure what the compound is in the burnt DMT, but I'm sure it's not psychology.
 
endlessness
#10 Posted : 6/16/2019 8:33:26 AM

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Kable wrote:
but I'm sure it's not psychology.



Why? Have you done a blind test?
 
jiva
#11 Posted : 6/16/2019 10:01:55 AM

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Kable wrote:
Jiva, what you say sounds right to me. I read your description on the other thread about the bazaar trips and I agree with the feeling that's very different from "normal" DMT. It sounds very much the same as what I was calling "derealization" in my notes. It wasn't necessarily horrid or dark, but I think that's what happens on the way to a dark trip if you don't clean out your device ASAP. I'm not sure what the compound is in the burnt DMT, but I'm sure it's not psychology.


i agree, it is not necessarily horrid or dark. the trips just take weird turns and often do not have the typical psychedelic feeling i became to associate with dmt at all.

edit: i should add to that, also just normal DMT can take weird turns and have unexpected kinds of trips up its sleeves. in my experience you never know. but with DMT that was already heated before, there seems to be more going on.


endlessness wrote:
Kable wrote:
but I'm sure it's not psychology.


Why? Have you done a blind test?


i have not done one, also doing this alone would be quite difficult. then also i do not like the idea of someone preparing my pipe for me while i do not know the amount or what kind of spice is in there.
i do like to have control over that



benzyme wrote
Quote:
I've analyzed re-x'd vaped dmt

would re-x-ing vaped dmt haven an influence on the oxidized dmt. would there be another method of testing the residue in a liquid pad?

as multiple people have a similar experience i think there has to be something going on. we might just do not know what it is.


 
Asher7
#12 Posted : 6/16/2019 11:51:26 AM

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At the risk of derailing my own thread, has anyone ever brought a malicious “entity” back with them that stuck around on this level? Namely one that is a faceless black figure that stands about 6’ 5” and has zero features?(possibly it could have some sort of dread arrangement on it’s head but this would most likely change over time) Perhaps it would show itself mainly during that brief period between sleep and wake, but also quick flashes in your peripheral vision while wide awake at night? It may go so far as to sort of zap your brain real quick frequently? Really similar to sleep paralysis but not the same thing. Also possibly affecting you mood in a negative way? Apparently it can also give you dreams or get into them and affect them.. Does any of this sound familiar?
 
endlessness
#13 Posted : 6/16/2019 12:35:38 PM

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jiva wrote:


i have not done one, also doing this alone would be quite difficult. then also i do not like the idea of someone preparing my pipe for me while i do not know the amount or what kind of spice is in there.
i do like to have control over that



If you have two pipes that are the same, you could potentially do it yourself.. otherwise yeah you'd need someone.

Either way, even if you cannot do the blind test, I think that is not necessarily a problem, but then I'd be careful making too many suppositions about what is and what isn't the reason for those differentiated types of experiences. I know it wasn't you but to say "Im sure it isn't psychology" without having clearly discarded through experimentation is imo problematic. It just keeps reinforcing a story without first proving its validity.

For some reason people are very adverse to admitting they may be mistaken/mislead/misinterpreting/misjudging stimulus. This doesn't mean they necessarily are misinterpreting things, but I think if you really want to be honest and find out the truth, it is essential to admit that as a possibility at least, and then work on discarding it (or confirming it) through experimentation (or leaving the interpretation open for the moment due to lack of data). And even if it did come to be that the person was mistaken, this doesnt mean they are bad or less intelligent or whatever, it is a part of human psychology that we all are part of, and it is demonstrated repeatedly through many experiments. Just take optical illusions, for example, its an example of how stimulus may clearly seem one way, but they are another.

Our brains work in interesting ways, and when you mix psychedelic drugs, which already have a variability within the same compound, even more.. and when you add small or big difference in dosages and set and settings, it makes things way more complex.

And if I may give my own experience with pre-heated/oily/whatever DMT versus other "types of DMT", I have had equally amazing experiences on all of them, can't tell a difference. They all have value to me and if I was giving DMT to someone I wouldn't really choose one over the other. That being said, I havent done a blind test on this myself. I proposed a blind test protocol when similar questions came up about "jungle spice" vs dmt. So far IIRC only 2 people tried doing the blind test and neither noticed any difference. More subjects would be better to come to conclusions about it.



Asher7,

Im not sure about the specific entity you are describing but I think this is very relevant:

https://wiki.dmt-nexus.m..._trips_.2F_Dark_entities
 
jiva
#14 Posted : 6/16/2019 2:37:02 PM

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endlessness wrote:


If you have two pipes that are the same, you could potentially do it yourself.. otherwise yeah you'd need someone.



unfortunately i do not own 2 pipes that would work for such a test.

endlessness wrote:


For some reason people are very adverse to admitting they may be mistaken/mislead/misinterpreting/misjudging stimulus. This doesn't mean they necessarily are misinterpreting things, but I think if you really want to be honest and find out the truth, it is essential to admit that as a possibility at least, and then work on discarding it (or confirming it) through experimentation (or leaving the interpretation open for the moment due to lack of data). And even if it did come to be that the person was mistaken, this doesnt mean they are bad or less intelligent or whatever, it is a part of human psychology that we all are part of, and it is demonstrated repeatedly through many experiments. Just take optical illusions, for example, its an example of how stimulus may clearly seem one way, but they are another.

Our brains work in interesting ways, and when you mix psychedelic drugs, which already have a variability within the same compound, even more.. and when you add small or big difference in dosages and set and settings, it makes things way more complex.


i am a 100% with you on that. i would never exclude myself from such illusions.
in a different thread i expressed my issues with a specific batch of dmt i had. i was sure it was way less pure and something was going on. when i had it tested, it turned out to be 75% DMT, which a lot less pure than what i usually vape. But still nothing explained the problems i had with it except for my preconception about the batch.

endlessness wrote:

And if I may give my own experience with pre-heated/oily/whatever DMT versus other "types of DMT", I have had equally amazing experiences on all of them, can't tell a difference. They all have value to me and if I was giving DMT to someone I wouldn't really choose one over the other. That being said, I havent done a blind test on this myself. I proposed a blind test protocol when similar questions came up about "jungle spice" vs dmt. So far IIRC only 2 people tried doing the blind test and neither noticed any difference. More subjects would be better to come to conclusions about it.


i also a gree with this, i had amazing experiences with what i assume was dmt-oxide or at least pre heated dmt. some of the experience shattered my perception and left me speechless. For me personally i would argue that i do prefer the non oxidized version as it is more what i am looking for currently.
I will take a look at your blind test protocol and see what i can do to add to the research Smile
 
Kable
#15 Posted : 6/16/2019 2:50:47 PM
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endlessness wrote:
Kable wrote:
but I'm sure it's not psychology.

Why?

Because I have done 154 DMT trips in the last 115 days, most of which were breakthroughs) and with varying levels of crud in my ccell cartridge/GVG and in hindsight it's been obvious.

Quote:
Have you done a blind test?

I have not. I have not done a blind test to tell that DMT does anything at all, yet "I'm sure" it's not psychology. YMMV
 
Kable
#16 Posted : 6/16/2019 3:02:22 PM
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Asher7 wrote:
At the risk of derailing my own thread, has anyone ever brought a malicious “entity” back with them that stuck around on this level? Namely one that is a faceless black figure that stands about 6’ 5” and has zero features?(possibly it could have some sort of dread arrangement on it’s head but this would most likely change over time) Perhaps it would show itself mainly during that brief period between sleep and wake, but also quick flashes in your peripheral vision while wide awake at night? It may go so far as to sort of zap your brain real quick frequently? Really similar to sleep paralysis but not the same thing. Also possibly affecting you mood in a negative way? Apparently it can also give you dreams or get into them and affect them.. Does any of this sound familiar?

Sounds like the dark witch/parasite that sapped/damned my soul that one time. She was about that height, black scribble/squiggle exterior with a yellowish core, or at least that's my recollection. She didn't stick around longer than the effects of the DMT, which now last me 30-60 minutes (usually 30). Psychologically it wasn't near as bad as the first time I was "bewitched." Cause afterwards I thought "my lips are burnt" it's a chemical burn, which is when I first put two and two together.

FWIW, I did a kambo for the first time a few days ago and it felt like a complete exorcism. My following DMT session was felt very "empty" almost boring. I missed some of those spirits, lol. But they found my address again the next day. It might be worth a try if something is hanging around.
 
Kable
#17 Posted : 6/16/2019 3:22:13 PM
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endlessness wrote:

If you have two pipes that are the same, you could potentially do it yourself.. otherwise yeah you'd need someone.

Yeah but that's like blindfolding yourself to be hit with a baseball bat, which presents it's own psychological issues. I have considered it, but I'm not sure I'm ready for that. I have some "haunted" 510 threaded cartridges I'd be happy to mail you if want to volunteer.

Quote:
I know it wasn't you but to say "Im sure it isn't psychology" without having clearly discarded through experimentation is imo problematic. It just keeps reinforcing a story without first proving its validity.

"I" don't have to prove anything to anyone to be sure of it myself. If "you" think "you" need to, "you" can go right ahead.

Quote:
For some reason people are very adverse to admitting they may be mistaken/mislead/misinterpreting/misjudging stimulus. This doesn't mean they necessarily are misinterpreting things, but I think if you really want to be honest and find out the truth, it is essential to admit that as a possibility at least, and then work on discarding it (or confirming it) through experimentation (or leaving the interpretation open for the moment due to lack of data). And even if it did come to be that the person was mistaken, this doesnt mean they are bad or less intelligent or whatever, it is a part of human psychology that we all are part of, and it is demonstrated repeatedly through many experiments. Just take optical illusions, for example, its an example of how stimulus may clearly seem one way, but they are another.

Bla bla bla... You want me to prep you a special cartridge? I'm not sure how it will work on you, but I'm sure of how it works on me. I'm also sure that if I knock my coffee cup off the counter it's going to break minus a prospective, double blinded, randomized, controlled trial with a P-value less than 0.05

Quote:
And if I may give my own experience with pre-heated/oily/whatever DMT versus other "types of DMT", I have had equally amazing experiences on all of them, can't tell a difference. They all have value to me and if I was giving DMT to someone I wouldn't really choose one over the other. That being said, I havent done a blind test on this myself. I proposed a blind test protocol when similar questions came up about "jungle spice" vs dmt. So far IIRC only 2 people tried doing the blind test and neither noticed any difference. More subjects would be better to come to conclusions about it.

This difference is nothing like the difference between jungle and white spice. It's not subtle at all, and once it's happened it's not something you're going to want to have happen to you again. Rather you'll want to "take time off," "integrate" probably take up meditation, lol
 
Asher7
#18 Posted : 6/16/2019 6:35:16 PM

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Hey man, in addition to those threads you already sent me are you aware of any others off the top of your head that deal with things back here which are still currently active? Most of what I’ve read deal with problems while you’re in the mix, like the low throat grunts (if anyone has audio depicting this I would appreciate if you could post it if it’s not too much trouble) but I’m not seeing many ways of “cleaning house” back here on the mainland present tense. I have something back here that isn’t aware of or doesn’t care that the trip is over,

@ endlessness, I appreciate the link. That seems to be focused on integrating memories of the experience and is certainly something to keep in mind, but what I’m looking for is defense present time on this level. I am fully aware this sounds insane, just go with me on this one.
 
endlessness
#19 Posted : 6/16/2019 7:20:40 PM

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Kable wrote:

Yeah but that's like blindfolding yourself to be hit with a baseball bat, which presents it's own psychological issues. I have considered it, but I'm not sure I'm ready for that. I have some "haunted" 510 threaded cartridges I'd be happy to mail you if want to volunteer.


Not in the situation to consume psychedelics at the moment but I'd be happy to send your extracts to LC-MS to see if any other alkaloids are detected. Can't be in cartridges with other solvents though.

Quote:

"I" don't have to prove anything to anyone to be sure of it myself. If "you" think "you" need to, "you" can go right ahead.


The difference here is that I'm not making absolute claims, so there's nothing I need to prove. I'm talking about possible explanations for a phenomenon and suggesting ways of testing. You don't have to do the tests yourself, but if you are not willing, then the very least is to be mindful of making claims. Refer to the attitude page "quality of information and discussion" section.


Quote:

Bla bla bla... You want me to prep you a special cartridge? I'm not sure how it will work on you, but I'm sure of how it works on me. I'm also sure that if I knock my coffee cup off the counter it's going to break minus a prospective, double blinded, randomized, controlled trial with a P-value less than 0.05


It would be more interesting if you'd debate the arguments instead of being dismissive/ridiculing just because it doesn't fit your own conclusions. As for the coffee cup, depending on the height , angle, floor and what not, it may indeed break.. But this is a phenomenon that could be repeated and observed by independent observers, and there is no subjective psychological element at play.... So that is a false equivalency imo.

Quote:
This difference is nothing like the difference between jungle and white spice. It's not subtle at all, and once it's happened it's not something you're going to want to have happen to you again. Rather you'll want to "take time off," "integrate" probably take up meditation, lol


The thing is, many people had for years been claiming the jungle/white difference is night and day, like you are now claiming with your (in theory) oxidized spice. I prefer to not form conclusions before all the data is in....

Asher7 wrote:

@ endlessness, I appreciate the link. That seems to be focused on integrating memories of the experience and is certainly something to keep in mind, but what I’m looking for is defense present time on this level. I am fully aware this sounds insane, just go with me on this one.



Hey friend, is it possible you only read the integration part but not what comes before? I think a lot of it is valid even if it is an ongoing experience... The part about the preparation in your daily life, keeping yourself healthy, surrounding yourself with "sacred objects", the mantras, the meditation, the 'not giving in to dark thoughts', etc... That section part was co-written by people with very different experiences and world-views, some more esotheric/believers, some more scientific, etc, so I think there is a lot to gain from it. I hope things get well for you, brother (or sister)!
 
Kable
#20 Posted : 6/16/2019 9:50:23 PM
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endlessness wrote:
[quote=Kable]
Not in the situation to consume psychedelics at the moment but I'd be happy to send your extracts to LC-MS to see if any other alkaloids are detected. Can't be in cartridges with other solvents though.

That won't work cause my cartridges all have e-juice. You can have LC-MS burn up some regular DMT in a GVG and see if that works.

Quote:
The difference here is that I'm not making absolute claims, so there's nothing I need to prove.

Nor am I.

Quote:
I'm talking about possible explanations for a phenomenon and suggesting ways of testing.

Your way of testing won't make one able to make an "absolute" claim either. Read Karl Popper and take a course on stats if you disagree.

Quote:
It would be more interesting if you'd debate the arguments instead of being dismissive/ridiculing just because it doesn't fit your own conclusions.

I'm not very interested in debating you at all. I'm here to corroborate Asher7's observation.

Quote:
The thing is, many people had for years been claiming the jungle/white difference is night and day, like you are now claiming with your (in theory) oxidized spice. I prefer to not form conclusions before all the data is in....

Nobody is asking you too. Burn your own DMT and get back to us if you want.

Quote:
Hey friend, is it possible you only read the integration part but not what comes before? I think a lot of it is valid even if it is an ongoing experience... The part about the preparation in your daily life, keeping yourself healthy, surrounding yourself with "sacred objects", the mantras, the meditation, the 'not giving in to dark thoughts', etc...

It appears you formed a conclusion that "a lot" of those preparations are valid? Specifically, which ones? How sure are you regarding each? Have you blinded test each variable, by itself, 4X each? You can't even, can you?
 
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