We've Moved! Visit our NEW FORUM to join the latest discussions. This is an archive of our previous conversations...

You can find the login page for the old forum here.
CHATPRIVACYDONATELOGINREGISTER
DMT-Nexus
FAQWIKIHEALTH & SAFETYARTATTITUDEACTIVE TOPICS
The Shipibo on Ayahuasca Globalization Options
 
Praxis.
#1 Posted : 6/10/2019 12:48:51 AM

DMT-Nexus member

Senior Member

Posts: 682
Joined: 30-Dec-2012
Last visit: 27-Feb-2024
Location: The Twilight Zone
I've debated posting this here for a while, but I feel like now it's as relevant as ever given all the conversation surrounding decriminalization in Denver and Oakland, and the wider implications of regulating plant medicines in a medicalized framework.

The Yarinacocha Declaration is the result of a convention of traditional Shipibo healers in the city of Yarinacocha amidst the fallout of the murder of Maestra Olivia Arévalo, an ayahuasca healer, by a Canadian tourist in 2018. The declaration calls for "a politically conscious and anti-colonialist set of practices that take into account power differentials, economic inequality and the social reality of Shipibo communities, given the enormous foreign interest in plant medicine." For context, you can read more about the declaration here.


Quote:
Pre-occupied that the knowledge of plants and practices of the Onanyabo – Ancestral Healers are being lost and not being transmitted to future generations;

Recognizing the repercussions of colonialism, state-based and Western education, and the invasion of industrialization, which has threatened the ancestral practices and knowledge of Shipibo-Konibo-Xetebo Peoples;

Recognizing the great expansion of spiritual tourism in Amazonian territories, and that the international interest comes with opportunities as much as dangers for the on-going development of ancestral knowledge;

Recognizing the importance of coordination and agreements between Onanyabo for confronting the opportunities and for discussing strategies to address the problems of our communities, which have been dramatically highlighted by the assassination of Maestra Olivia Arévalo Lomas;

We declare that:

1. Given their history, practice, and methodology, Shipibo-Konibo-Xetebo healing and expertise in medicinal plants are anti-colonialist forms of practice and knowledge, able to resist, transform and reconfigure with every difficulty and threat. Thus healers, teachers, practitioners must remain aware and proud to cultivate the anti-colonialist nature of their practices.

2. The work of healing and the struggle towards self-determination are not separable. They must move forward on the same path.

Consequently, we

1. Adopt the term Onanya - Ancestral Healer to replace the common ‘shaman’ and ‘shamanism’, imported terminologies that do not apply historically to the particularities of our culture.

2. Suggest that Onanyabo can focus on the training and education of Shipibos youth, especially in the communities, so as to counteract cultural appropriation by foreign apprentices who numerically overshadow local ones since our young populations do not have comparable economic resources to engage in long periods of training.

3. Invite Onanyabo, practitioners, workers and students (indigenous as well as foreign) to be conscious of the politics of Shipibo sovereignty, and to contribute to the struggle for cultural, economic and social self-determination.

4. Propose the establishment of a school, ‘Escuela Meraya’ (in accordance with values of this declaration) that would include education in plant medicine, politics, and art as well as in digital, vegetal and spiritual technologies.

5. Will investigate the development of a mechanism by which foreigners taking advantage of indigenous medicine, healing and spiritual labour might be able to contribute to the cultural and political empowerment of Shipibo-Konibo-Xetebo Peoples and their path towards self-determination; such a mechanism could include, for example, a tax or contribution for each ‘pasajero’ (foreign patient) to be donated to an organization such as the ‘Escuela Meraya’.

6. Invite Onanyabo, to join the Shipibo-Konibo-Xetebo Association of Onanyabo/ Ancestral Healers so that they might coordinate in unity and demand their rights and fair and just remuneration.

Source...



More recently, the same union (Union of Onanyabos and Traditional Medical Practitioners of the Shipibo Konibo) issued a separate statement in response to both another attack on a healer, and the lack of Shipibo involvement at the 2019 World Ayahuasca Conference in Spain.

Quote:
In light of yet another assault on one of our healers, Maestra Lucinda Mahua Campos, who was shot on May 6, 2019 in the community of Paoyhan in the district of Padre Márquez (in the Loreto region of Ucayali Province);

And noting that the attack coincided with the anniversary of the assassination of another of our master healers, Olivia Arévalo Lomas, at the hands of a Canadian tourist;

And given the upcoming World Ayahuasca Conference to be held on May 31 in Girona, Catalunya, Spain;

We, the Union of Onanyabos and Traditional Medical Practitioners of the Shipibo Konibo (ASOMASHK) along with the autonomous governing council of the Shipibo (COSHIKOX), issue the following declaration with utmost urgency on behalf of the Shipibo nation, with a population of 45,000 spread across several provinces in Peru and residing in other countries of the world.

Apprehensive by the rampant abuse by a outsiders of our sacred plants and of the ancestral knowledge of Amazonian Peoples,

Recognizing the rapid growth of spiritual tourism in the Amazon;

Acknowledging, at the same time, that global interest comes with dangers as well as opportunities for the evolution of indigenous knowledge;

And further considering that:

Ayahuasca (banisteriopsis caapi) is a sacred plant traditionally used by many Amazonian Peoples and as such was declared the cultural heritage of the Shipibo Konibo nation by the National Institute of Culture (INC) under the National Executive Resolution # 836 of the Legal Code of the State of Peru (published on July 12, 2008 ); and that our therapeutic and healing chant, the Icaro, is also cultural heritage as declared by the Peruvian state;

The Declaration of Yarinacocha, was issued on August 19, 2018 during the first Convention of Traditional Shipibo Medical Practitioners, convened by COSHIKOX as part of the initiative for autonomous governance and self determination, and resulting in the founding of the Union of Onanyabos and Traditional Medical Practitioners of the Shipibo Konibo (ASOMASHK); and this declaration denounced the abuses and enumerated the needs and concerns regarding spiritual wisdom and ancestral knowledge;

The World Ayahuasca Conference, which will be held this year in Spain, is of great notoriety and international interest. However, we were not invited to this conference; not as indigenous people nor as an association of Onanyabo- keepers of the ancestral knowledge of sacred Amazonian plants. Nevertheless, on this occasion the global press and scientists from other nations will be speaking about the worldwide use of Ayahuasca.

We would like to state that:

Given our history, practice, and methodology, our work as Onanyabo and the indigenous knowledge of sacred medicinal plants are anti-colonialist practices and thus deserving of proper use and social, economic and political respect. We are tired of seeing our knowledge and ancestral practices appropriated by a cannibalistic Western system.

There is a great risk that regulation, mainstreaming and medicalization will lead to the concentration of legitimacy in the world of Western medicine and to the exclusion of indigenous practices and communities. What is the point of these global conferences when our own communities are being destroyed and our knowledge and plant technologies are not being transmitted inter-generationally amongst our own people?

Our organization supports medical pluralism and we believe that our Shipibo medical practitioners - unified as Onanyabo – can work alongside experts and doctors of the Ministry of Health and the World Health Organization (WHO) to find solutions for illnesses that are afflicting our native communities and more generally in other parts of the world.

We request that organizers of all of the national and international activities and events related to the use of ancestral medicine who are not connected with our Association, and in particular those planned by foreign organizers, should ask for consent from ASOMASHK in order to counteract the illicit appropriation and piracy of our ancestral knowledge and traditional practices.


BOARD OF DIRECTORS COSHIKOX & BOARD OF DIRECTORS ASOMASHK


Being conscious of the importance of coordinating and achieving accord amongst maestras and maestros to accept circumstances as well as discuss strategies to solve the problems that impact our communities- with this goal, ASOMASHK was born. ASOMASHK was created in order to coordinate and mark the importance of the work of maestras and maestros, and to provide a mechanism to discuss and strategize towards solutions for problems that affect our communities. ASOMASHK is an organization representative of Onanyabo, the ancestral medical practitioners, formed in defense of our traditional medicine knowledge and wisdom. It entered into validity with Title # 2019-00192700 of the National Superintendent of Public Records in the State of Peru; established and carrying out activities as of January 2019 as a Juridical Person legally constituted and protected by the laws of Peru, valid legal norms, and international treaties and agreements such as the ILO and the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

Source...
"Consciousness grows in spirals." --George L. Jackson

If you can just get your mind together, then come across to me. We'll hold hands and then we'll watch the sunrise from the bottom of the sea...
But first, are you experienced?
 

Explore our global analysis service for precise testing of your extracts and other substances.
 
dreamer042
#2 Posted : 6/10/2019 1:13:43 AM

Dreamoar

Moderator | Skills: Mostly harmless

Posts: 4711
Joined: 10-Sep-2009
Last visit: 16-Mar-2024
Location: Rocky mountain high
I really like the idea of of establishing a school to preserve, protect, and pass on the language and tradition of the Shipibo-Konibo-Xetebo Peoples. I think something like this could work really well both in preserving a fading culture internally, and in educating outsiders, as well as utilizing tourism income in a much more appropriate way than than the typical (western run) retreat model that is currently the norm.

I wonder if something similar could be done for other jeopardized cultures in North America, Asia, Africa, etc....
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily...

Visual diagram for the administration of dimethyltryptamine

Visual diagram for the administration of ayahuasca
 
theAlkēmist
#3 Posted : 6/10/2019 8:02:43 AM

Alchemist


Posts: 215
Joined: 06-Feb-2019
Last visit: 13-Mar-2020
Location: Everywhere
I like the proposal and thoroughly agree. But how would these healers ever be accepted by scientists and doctors? And there will be those that would only see $$$

Maybe to work with the medicine you would have to participate in (x) amount of ceremonies?
“The art of alchemy is like a psycho-spiritual multi-vitamin and mineral elixir secreted by the cosmic mind to help heal the collective madness that has infected our world.”

“If the prima materia contains poison, then the more virulent the poison, the more powerful are its potential healing qualities. Accomplished alchemists are able to transmute the poison into a healing nectar.“
 
Mr&Mrs McShulfman
#4 Posted : 6/10/2019 2:47:15 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 83
Joined: 15-Nov-2015
Last visit: 26-Mar-2021
Location: 13th dimension
They want a piece of the big cake.
Shipibos are loosing their culture and traditions because wersterners have more money to pay for long term trainings ?!?!?! Is that a joke Laughing Laughing who is asking for hundreds of dollars for drinking one small cup of their so sacred medicine ?? I think that the few healers who are not interested in making money on people's health are not interested in making part of this association neither.
If they really wanted to preserve the ancestral knowledge they would go in the forest and take their plants - which are all growing for free, giving medicine for free and teaching everyone who want to learn for free and all of this without any distinction of race or culture - instead of taxing foreigners for their so called school. I mean nature is the school, spirits are the teachers.

Don't sell your culture and nobody will buy it.
 
grollum
#5 Posted : 6/10/2019 3:30:10 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 366
Joined: 12-Mar-2016
Last visit: 27-Jul-2021
Mr&Mrs McShulfman wrote:
They want a piece of the big cake.
Shipibos are loosing their culture and traditions because wersterners have more money to pay for long term trainings ?!?!?! Is that a joke Laughing Laughing who is asking for hundreds of dollars for drinking one small cup of their so sacred medicine ?? I think that the few healers who are not interested in making money on people's health are not interested in making part of this association neither.
If they really wanted to preserve the ancestral knowledge they would go in the forest and take their plants - which are all growing for free, giving medicine for free and teaching everyone who want to learn for free and all of this without any distinction of race or culture - instead of taxing foreigners for their so called school. I mean nature is the school, spirits are the teachers.

Don't sell your culture and nobody will buy it.


If you don't sell it they will steal it. Forrest's are getting smaller and smaller, so in my opinion you need another structure to protect your knowledge.
 
Praxis.
#6 Posted : 6/10/2019 3:39:24 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Senior Member

Posts: 682
Joined: 30-Dec-2012
Last visit: 27-Feb-2024
Location: The Twilight Zone
Mr&Mrs McShulfman wrote:
They want a piece of the big cake.
Shipibos are loosing their culture and traditions because wersterners have more money to pay for long term trainings ?!?!?! Is that a joke Laughing Laughing who is asking for hundreds of dollars for drinking one small cup of their so sacred medicine ?? I think that the few healers who are not interested in making money on people's health are not interested in making part of this association neither.
If they really wanted to preserve the ancestral knowledge they would go in the forest and take their plants - which are all growing for free, giving medicine for free and teaching everyone who want to learn for free and all of this without any distinction of race or culture - instead of taxing foreigners for their so called school. I mean nature is the school, spirits are the teachers.

Don't sell your culture and nobody will buy it.


I don't think it's that simple. The large majority of retreat centers charging that kind of money are owned by foreigners with large amounts of capital and little or no ties to local communities, and as had already been said the forest is getting smaller and it's hard to compete with such a large-scale global demand. So whether or not the Shipibo and other groups are "selling their own culture", it's happening regardless and making outsiders wealthy. Given that the genie is already out of the bottle, so to speak, it seems more than fair to want a slice of the pie - especially given that they're also grappling with the long-term impacts of colonization and extractivism, climate change, and displacement.
"Consciousness grows in spirals." --George L. Jackson

If you can just get your mind together, then come across to me. We'll hold hands and then we'll watch the sunrise from the bottom of the sea...
But first, are you experienced?
 
dragonrider
#7 Posted : 6/10/2019 4:45:06 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Moderator

Posts: 3090
Joined: 09-Jul-2016
Last visit: 03-Feb-2024
Mr&Mrs McShulfman wrote:
They want a piece of the big cake.
Shipibos are loosing their culture and traditions because wersterners have more money to pay for long term trainings ?!?!?! Is that a joke Laughing Laughing who is asking for hundreds of dollars for drinking one small cup of their so sacred medicine ?? I think that the few healers who are not interested in making money on people's health are not interested in making part of this association neither.
If they really wanted to preserve the ancestral knowledge they would go in the forest and take their plants - which are all growing for free, giving medicine for free and teaching everyone who want to learn for free and all of this without any distinction of race or culture - instead of taxing foreigners for their so called school. I mean nature is the school, spirits are the teachers.

Don't sell your culture and nobody will buy it.

Is it realy that odd that people want to make some money without completely selling out themselves?

Isn't just that what everybody wants?
 
downwardsfromzero
#8 Posted : 6/10/2019 7:09:26 PM

Boundary condition

ModeratorChemical expert

Posts: 8617
Joined: 30-Aug-2008
Last visit: 16-Apr-2024
Location: square root of minus one
Mr&Mrs McShulfman wrote:
They want a piece of the big cake.
Shipibos are loosing their culture and traditions because wersterners have more money to pay for long term trainings ?!?!?! Is that a joke Laughing Laughing who is asking for hundreds of dollars for drinking one small cup of their so sacred medicine ?? I think that the few healers who are not interested in making money on people's health are not interested in making part of this association neither.
If they really wanted to preserve the ancestral knowledge they would go in the forest and take their plants - which are all growing for free, giving medicine for free and teaching everyone who want to learn for free and all of this without any distinction of race or culture - instead of taxing foreigners for their so called school. I mean nature is the school, spirits are the teachers.

Don't sell your culture and nobody will buy it.

There's convincing evidence that significant portions of the Amazon forest were created by humans. Before the Spanish arrived the forest supported a population quite possibly in the millions, including large cities. Smallpox came in the wake of the first 15th century explorers and wiped out all but a tiny handful of survivors, and by the time further exploration took place 100 years later the remains of these now abandoned cities had vanished in the undergrowth. Orellana was dismissed as a deluded crackpot for describing a flourishing urban civilisation in the Amazon. It turns out he was right.

How is this relevant? It would appear that the members of the Union of Onanyabos and Traditional Medical Practitioners of the Shipibo Konibo would like a bit of recognition for having maintained their part of the sacred garden for the intervening centuries, which is surely fair enough. We need it now more than ever.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Mr&Mrs McShulfman
#9 Posted : 6/10/2019 7:37:22 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 83
Joined: 15-Nov-2015
Last visit: 26-Mar-2021
Location: 13th dimension
grollum wrote:
If you don't sell it they will steal it. Forrest's are getting smaller and smaller, so in my opinion you need another structure to protect your knowledge.


Personally I do not consider nothing as "mine" and nobody can steel me. That is purely logical.
We could think that a culture belongs to the human race but even cultures are inspired by contacts with nature. Shipibo people want to patent their drawings and their songs which come from ... plant pririts !! I do not invent, that's their words. It is more honest to consider that all of this belongs to the plants...
From the moment they start to talk about making a school (which is totally out of their culture) they're not credible anymore. I cannot say that I gonna run an ashram for preserving western culture, its a nonsense.
They all want to live like westerners, that's why their culture is disappearing. This is another logical fact. If I start to live like a nomadic Berber of the Sahara I will progressively loose my Westerner culture. It is normal and the only way I have to don't loose my culture is to live like a Westerner. I'm not discussing the fact that they were kind of forced to adopt western culture because of the proximity of their traditional lands to the mountains from were came the Spanish's and because of all the other atrocities that happened to them after that, I just try to point out what looks illogical to me.

Ancestral amazonian knowledge and traditions are not only about drinking Ayahuasca and running ceremonies. Amazonian people live traditionally in complex social organizations based on war, they are semis nomadic people, their alimentation is based on hunting and on the agriculture of manioc and bananas, for most of them they live in communal houses, they burn and eat the bones of their ancestors to honor them and in order to empower the identity of the group, (they do not establish schools and taxes for this purpose Very happy ). A culture is way more than drawing icaro patterns (which now only serve for commercial purposes by the way) it is a whole way of being in the world. Take a look at what ancestral practices where for those native people and you will see that it has nothing to see with what they are living now. The knowledge that they talk about came from the deep connection with nature they used to have before they started to talk, think, act and live like westerners.
No problem with what they want : more recognition at the international level and more money. It is their right but you can't invoke ancestral knowledge and sacredness for this purpose.

And yes it is generally more expensive to see a shipibo healer in Peru than a western dortor in France !
 
Mr&Mrs McShulfman
#10 Posted : 6/10/2019 7:59:11 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 83
Joined: 15-Nov-2015
Last visit: 26-Mar-2021
Location: 13th dimension
Maybe my point of view is a bit disturbed because I'm personally involved in the subject and I'm sick of seeing so much commercial behaviors messing up human contacts, so much shipibo, mestizos, quechuas and others playing the game of commerce with medicine putting apart what is really important.
 
Jagube
#11 Posted : 6/10/2019 9:17:24 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 1111
Joined: 18-Feb-2017
Last visit: 02-Apr-2024
Mr&Mrs McShulfman wrote:

We could think that a culture belongs to the human race but even cultures are inspired by contacts with nature. Shipibo people want to patent their drawings and their songs which come from ... plant pririts !! I do not invent, that's their words. It is more honest to consider that all of this belongs to the plants...

Inspired by nature doesn't mean there is no cultural or otherwise human element in it. Shipibo patterns are specific to the Shipibos, other Amazonian tribes don't traditionally produce them.

Mr&Mrs McShulfman wrote:

From the moment they start to talk about making a school (which is totally out of their culture) they're not credible anymore. I cannot say that I gonna run an ashram for preserving western culture, its a nonsense.

Using your logic, one could say the French shouldn't use computers to preserve their culture, language etc. because computers are not a traditional part of their culture; indeed, they were only introduced into France within the last 100 years and they were invented in America anyway; if the French do use computers, they lose credibility.
 
dreamer042
#12 Posted : 6/11/2019 2:14:50 AM

Dreamoar

Moderator | Skills: Mostly harmless

Posts: 4711
Joined: 10-Sep-2009
Last visit: 16-Mar-2024
Location: Rocky mountain high
Mr&Mrs McShulfman wrote:
teaching everyone who want to learn for free and all of this without any distinction of race or culture

I tend to agree with this analysis. If you want your languages, songs, stories, and ceremonies to last into the 21st century and beyond, you have to share them! With the rate that traditional languages are going extinct (far faster than plants, animals, and cultures themselves) there is no time to quibble with xenophobia and racism. If someone, anyone, doesn't learn and archive the language and traditions, they die off with the few remaining fluent speakers.

Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily...

Visual diagram for the administration of dimethyltryptamine

Visual diagram for the administration of ayahuasca
 
Praxis.
#13 Posted : 6/11/2019 3:03:03 AM

DMT-Nexus member

Senior Member

Posts: 682
Joined: 30-Dec-2012
Last visit: 27-Feb-2024
Location: The Twilight Zone
dreamer042 wrote:
Mr&Mrs McShulfman wrote:
teaching everyone who want to learn for free and all of this without any distinction of race or culture

I tend to agree with this analysis. If you want your languages, songs, stories, and ceremonies to last into the 21st century and beyond, you have to share them! With the rate that traditional languages are going extinct (far faster than plants, animals, and cultures themselves) there is no time to quibble with xenophobia and racism. If someone, anyone, doesn't learn and archive the language and traditions, they die off with the few remaining fluent speakers.


I don't mean to ruffle any feathers or come off like I'm trying to play gatekeeper, but I disagree with this. I think there's a significant difference between preserving a language or tradition for the benefit of those who are part of that culture, versus simply allowing it to be whitewashed and assimilated into industrial society as an academic footnote at the expense of those who are part of the original culture. One is erasure and one is not.

When I read their statements I don't get the impression that the Shipibo are saying they don't want to share with outsiders, quite the opposite. But given the challenges they face as a direct result of Western colonization, and given that Westerners are making money hand over fist from Shipibo innovations already anyways, why should they just give us more free handouts? My understanding is that their goal is to retain their sovereignty amidst Western globalism, not to allow themselves to be phased out so the rest of us can enjoy the "preserved" parts of their culture that happen to suit us. That means having capital to invest in their own communities so more young people aren't forced to relocate to cities for work, thus continuing the cycle of erasure.

From my perspective, the notion that native people should have to take the high road and just offer up their heritage when we say 'gimme or perish to history' is troubling, and isn't all that different from the attitudes that led to colonization in the first place.
"Consciousness grows in spirals." --George L. Jackson

If you can just get your mind together, then come across to me. We'll hold hands and then we'll watch the sunrise from the bottom of the sea...
But first, are you experienced?
 
Mr&Mrs McShulfman
#14 Posted : 6/11/2019 8:56:23 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 83
Joined: 15-Nov-2015
Last visit: 26-Mar-2021
Location: 13th dimension
Jagube wrote:
Mr&Mrs McShulfman wrote:

We could think that a culture belongs to the human race but even cultures are inspired by contacts with nature. Shipibo people want to patent their drawings and their songs which come from ... plant pririts !! I do not invent, that's their words. It is more honest to consider that all of this belongs to the plants...

Inspired by nature doesn't mean there is no cultural or otherwise human element in it. Shipibo patterns are specific to the Shipibos, other Amazonian tribes don't traditionally produce them.

Mr&Mrs McShulfman wrote:

From the moment they start to talk about making a school (which is totally out of their culture) they're not credible anymore. I cannot say that I gonna run an ashram for preserving western culture, its a nonsense.

Using your logic, one could say the French shouldn't use computers to preserve their culture, language etc. because computers are not a traditional part of their culture; indeed, they were only introduced into France within the last 100 years and they were invented in America anyway; if the French do use computers, they lose credibility.


Just note that almost every single tribe in the Amazon produce patterns inspired by the visions they get from the plants they take. In fact they all have in commun the belief that the spirits give them all the cultural behaviors they evolve in.
What is not traditional of their culture is to embroider in large quantities industrial fabrics with synthetic wool to make business.

What characterize western culture nowadays ? Sedentarism, industry, private property, progress, modernism, urbanization, political development, large use of schools, integration of international relationships.

With no doubt France and the USA match perfectly with the characteristics of a western society and consequently we are from the same culture. Traditional shipibo culture doesn't match to any of those points so it is a different culture.
The article talks about appropriation of the shipibo culture by westerners as a problem but since the youth (and a large majority of adults) of this community is more interested in adopting fully the western culture than in keeping there traditions alive can we consider this phenomenon to be what is giving values to some aspects of this culture ? Can we consider that the members of the association and other members of the shipibo community who want to adopt more of the aspects of the western culture mentioned above are in fact acting for the appropriation of their own culture by ours ?

 
Jagube
#15 Posted : 6/11/2019 10:20:46 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 1111
Joined: 18-Feb-2017
Last visit: 02-Apr-2024
Mr&Mrs McShulfman wrote:

With no doubt France and the USA match perfectly with the characteristics of a western society and consequently we are from the same culture. Traditional shipibo culture doesn't match to any of those points so it is a different culture.

There are many ways to draw a line.
French culture is quite distinct from US culture, so you could break that down further and say they're completely different. But I understand if that's not convenient for you; modern technology has benefits that few would want to relinquish.

From yet another angle, we are all humans, and our culture - French, US or Shipibo - is all one culture and I bet it's quite distinct from any other we might encounter if we come across an extraterrestrial civilization one day.

Institutional education, computers, even steel knives and pots are all tools that make our lives easier, more efficient and make us more powerful. If you take those tools away from the Shipibos, how can they preserve their culture when the whole world is using them? Who are you to tell the Shipibos what they're allowed to use and what they aren't, in their efforts to preserve aspects of their culture that matter to them?
They have the same right to benefit from the great inventions of human civilization as anyone. If you take that right away from them, if you only give them the option to live in the jungle like their ancestors lived 1000 years ago, or fully assimilate with Western society, then hardly any Shipibo will choose the former and it surely won't help preserve their culture. No one likes to be treated like a monkey in a zoo and told where their place is.

When you listen to Shipibo icaros, or indeed drink Ayahuasca, does that make you lose your Western identity?
 
dragonrider
#16 Posted : 6/11/2019 4:29:39 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Moderator

Posts: 3090
Joined: 09-Jul-2016
Last visit: 03-Feb-2024
In todays word, everybody is struggling with this issue.

Every culture needs to constantly renew, grow and reinvent itself, or it becomes like a fossil. Cultural exhange is a hell of a catalist for renewal. Therefore, to isolate yourself is not realy a good option.

However, if you don't watch out, your culture is not going to renew itself at all, it is simply going to be assimilated or even replaced by a foreign culture.

A random example of this is the fact that today, everybody, maybe even british people, seems to believe that computers are an american invention. I would say that is a loss for the UK.
 
Jagube
#17 Posted : 6/11/2019 4:55:10 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 1111
Joined: 18-Feb-2017
Last visit: 02-Apr-2024
dragonrider wrote:
A random example of this is the fact that today, everybody, maybe even british people, seems to believe that computers are an american invention. I would say that is a loss for the UK.

Sorry if I made an inaccurate statement. You've made a good point. Thanks.
 
Mr&Mrs McShulfman
#18 Posted : 6/13/2019 8:40:14 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 83
Joined: 15-Nov-2015
Last visit: 26-Mar-2021
Location: 13th dimension
It is hard to objectify our own point of view; but it is necessary for realizing that we are looking through lenses that condition our vision.

When I read my posts again I feel -like a wound in my psyche- all the desillutionments I've been through during the last 10 years of travel. I remember being in search for contacts with other cultures because mine made me sick. Almost everywhere I've been the local ancestral culture was kind of contaminated to some degree by occidental influences. But still I've met a few people who where so true and so naive in a way that the occidental influence was slipping on them without grip on which to cling. Those encounters were what I needed because they confirmed that something radically different from what I have always knew existed and something so familiar at the same time. It was profound and unspeakable, like a dream. For me more different are the persons you meet, more rich is the contact and yes through this I have lost a big part of what was making me Occidental...
And really I have nothing more to say. More different is a culture from another, more constructive is the contact for both and this exchange has a price. You have to loose or offer something to get something else. It works the same for cultures. Shipibo people have lost a good part of their culture by adopting practices and objects from the Occidental culture, that's inevitable and adopting more won't save their ancestral culture, it will transform it further more.
I won't say if this is good or bad, I don't care about good and bad, I just think that "it is".
 
 
Users browsing this forum
Guest

DMT-Nexus theme created by The Traveler
This page was generated in 0.061 seconds.