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My story - seriously strange side effects from syrian rue and oral freebase DMT Options
 
firsttimefranky
#1 Posted : 5/20/2019 5:06:16 AM
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Hello to all,

I've joined this forum in the hopes of getting some answers to my current predicament, which has caught me extremely unexpectedly as I consider myself a reasonably competent psychonaut, with around 7 years of experience with various substances.

Last week, on the 15th of May I took an oral dose of ground syrian rue (approx 4.5g) and freebase DMT (approx 250mg) both in gel capsules. Having done some reading on the forums I know these amounts are fairly high, however I have done larger oral doses of freebase in the past and very similarly sized syrian rue dosages as well.

The difference with this experience was that I had eaten only lightly the day before and the day of the experience, and the freebase was gelcapped and not parachuted as in the past. The experience itself was quite unpleasant, I dosed the rue about an hour before the DMT and felt the onset of effects about an hour later. It quickly became physically overwhelming, and I felt I had taken too much rue and was going to be sick, however I was able to contain the nausea (which now seems like a mistake) and rode the experience out over about 6-7 hours.

There was very little OEVs, quite a bit of CEVs, most of the experience was felt in the body and while parts were helpful and ecstatic the majority was muddled and unpleasant.

After the effects had subsided I drank a lot of rooibos tea, didn't consume any food and went to bed a few hours later after journalling my experience. The next day my stomach was a little upset which I attributed to lack of food and the rigors of the day before. I went about my day normally but after lying down to go to sleep at about 10:30pm that night I was struck by a buildup of energy in my chest which resulted in fairly intense tremors radiating up and down my body, like the energy was trapped in my body with no way to be released. This continued in waves for about an hour and then I drifted into a bizarre dreamlike state somewhat similar to a DMT experience but much less vivid. What I saw could be described as a rebuilding of the earlier energy and when I awoke an hour later I could feel the energy in my chest again, and commenced tremoring once again. I attempted to release the energy in a few ways (shaking it out, excreting it, breathing it out), all to no avail, after another hour or so the tremors subsided and I fell asleep around 3:30am.

Tremors are something I have long associated with the DMT experience, over the years I have been effected by similar tremors right before takeoff, which I just assumed were natural nerves.

It has now been 4 nights since my oral trip and these tremors have afflicted me each night. Usually I can fall asleep initially because I am very tired by this point, but I wake within an hour to the tremoring, then the fugue-like dreamstate for several hours and then eventually exhausted sleep. After 3 days of this terrible sleep pattern combined with work I broke down in tears (something that hasn't happened in many, many years). I had hoped this was perhaps what it was building too, and that with the release of tears I would be freed of the nighttime tremors but that night they continued as normal.

I am becoming quite anxious that I have affected something in my stomach/brain that is causing these effects and I am at a loss at how to remedy the situation. I have very few physical symptoms during the day, my stomach feels mildly upset in the mornings, and I have a slowly building sense of anxiety from the loss of sleep and worry that these effects might be permanent but nothing else.

If anyone has any information that could be helpful to me it would be greatly appreciated, as I am genuinely unsure as to why I am having this particular reaction.

Regards,
F

 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
FranLover
#2 Posted : 5/20/2019 6:27:53 PM

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Hello my friend since I am not a doctor allow me to just offer some possibilities.
Next time you wake up in the middle of the night try listening to this https://www.youtube.com/...69o0P7s8GHE&t=3175s
A possible remedy for waking up in the night is taking melatonin half an hour before bed. 6, 8, or 12mg. By the time you are asleep you will go deep into sleep.
Drink a lot of water throughout the day but stop a little while before going to sleep. Eat apples, bannanas, brocolli, vegetable soup; avoid pizza, beer, coffee, sodas, at all cost. If you eat meat you could get a nice big well made steak, something that will give you a lot of energy and strenght--a spike in hormonal levels (which is also why meditation, streching, and exercise is key for reaching good hormanal and energy levels while detoxing and going back to homeostasis.)
Exercise and yoga and meditation. If you work 40hs a week try getting a day off, say that you bent and sprained your ancle and cant walk or drive... so you can relax a little from the grind of work and get into a normal 24hr cycle, do the yoga, the meditation, a little exercise, hot bath, good foods; a sabbath day to try and heal.
Goes without saying that if you can afford it make a trip to the doctorSmile
I wish for your recovery. To me those symptoms in all likleyhood will not last for forever and not even for much longer.
And so it seems that we have met before
And laughed before, and loved before
But who knows where or when.
 
Arkano
#3 Posted : 5/20/2019 7:21:29 PM

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firsttimefranky wrote:
Hello to all,


If anyone has any information that could be helpful to me it would be greatly appreciated, as I am genuinely unsure as to why I am having this particular reaction.

Regards,
F




that feeling of energy closed in the body I too often have, so much so that from the outside I always acted like a rattle to free some of it, sometimes it is pleasant but sometimes it is definitely too much, in my ugly journey I had to get my sitter to massage my foot to get rid of that tingling energy I felt in me.
 
downwardsfromzero
#4 Posted : 5/20/2019 8:35:13 PM

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Hi there. Reading your story, what immediately springs to mind is - have you tried singing or other types of vocalisation? Combining vocalisation with spontaneous movement can be an effective means of releasing.

As ever, there is no such thing as a casual experiment.
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality."
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
 
Algodritmo
#5 Posted : 5/21/2019 8:40:43 PM

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Sounds like Serotonin Syndrome

Are you taking anything else? Melatonin? Tryptophan? 5-htp? MDMA? Anything... DON'T!

It should stop on its own... But please report back
Let's be honest: the Questionnaire is toooooo long and deep!

"One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws" - Martin Luther King
 
Algodritmo
#6 Posted : 5/21/2019 8:46:38 PM

eclectic

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Also have a look at this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.o...eptic_malignant_syndrome
Let's be honest: the Questionnaire is toooooo long and deep!

"One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws" - Martin Luther King
 
Algodritmo
#7 Posted : 5/21/2019 8:53:43 PM

eclectic

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Have a look at this too:
https://www.mdedge.com/e...oes-mainstream/page/0/1

Go to the doctor!
Let's be honest: the Questionnaire is toooooo long and deep!

"One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws" - Martin Luther King
 
Algodritmo
#8 Posted : 5/21/2019 9:01:58 PM

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https://www.google.com/u...aw2CXTwEr65E_JkibwJPtDG5
Let's be honest: the Questionnaire is toooooo long and deep!

"One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws" - Martin Luther King
 
downwardsfromzero
#9 Posted : 5/21/2019 10:06:01 PM

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Algodritmo wrote:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.5455/bcp.20120729095402

That report details the interaction of Peganum harmala with psychiatric medications, namely quetiapine and (in particular) fluoxetine - a serotonin re-uptake inhibitor. Use of SSRI medication is a reasonably well-known contraindication for use of harmala alkaloids.

Are you a medical professional? While your concern for your fellow forum members is very welcome, I very much disagree with the conclusion you've come to. The effects described sound nothing like serotonin syndrome, nor NMS.

In the first place, as the OP accepts, it was a pretty high dose of aya analogue. Secondly, the effects of a "large quantity of rooibos tea" on the human metabolism should not be overlooked. Rooibos is a rich source of polyphenol compounds and it is not beyond comprehension that, in combination with the aya analogue (and, frankly, for that matter an excessive amount of DMT), this has led to a neurochemical imbalance of some sort.
Quote:
Rooibos tea is naturally high in two types of polyphenol antioxidants--aspalathin and nothofagin
Here

Rooibos tea also contains the flavonoids isoorientin, orientin, vitexin, rutin, isovitexin, isoquercitrin, luteolin, quercetin and chrysoeriol. These will have a range of biological and metabolic activities.
Quote:
Previous research (4-7) on the presence of flavonoid compounds in Rooibos tea revealed the occurrence of the flavonol quercetin and its 3-O-‚-D-glucopyranoside derivative (isoquercitrin) and the quercetin-3-O-rutinoside (rutin). Then, the presence of the aglycons luteolin and chrysoeriol, the dihydrochalcones aspalathin and nothofagin, and the flavones orientin, iso-orientin, and their 4′-deoxy analogues, vitexin and iso-vitexin, has also been described.
Here.


firsttimefranky, I hope you're starting to feel better. Time is often a great healer - and I stand by the vocalisation suggestion. Sing your heart out!
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality."
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
 
firsttimefranky
#10 Posted : 5/22/2019 3:21:39 AM
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Hello again,

Thank you all for the suggestions and support, the last two nights have been considerably better, with no tremors at all last night, just a slightly disrupted nights sleep. I believe time may indeed have been all that was needed.

As a silver lining I've been given much insight into how I react to anxiety and fear, which has helped put a few other problems in perspective.

I'll report back here if anything changes, thanks again.

F
 
Algodritmo
#11 Posted : 5/22/2019 10:07:58 AM

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Glad you're ok, and indeed, if you don't keep taking substances that aggravate the problem, Serotonin Syndrome (I'm quite sure that's what you had...) should resolve on its own.

The hypothesis of rooibos tea is preposterous... you'll die of just drinking too much liquid, before any substance in the tea will make any harm.

Breathing, meditating, singing.... sure, you can also pray if you want, or play chess, or count sheep. In the end it's all "wait until it passes"... but, that only works when you're really not taking anything to aggravate the situation. Believing that those remedies are enough is what could make you keep taking those substances, and die... singing :-)
Let's be honest: the Questionnaire is toooooo long and deep!

"One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws" - Martin Luther King
 
PleasureAndBliss
#12 Posted : 5/22/2019 5:51:25 PM
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It's NOT serotonin syndrome (SS). 1sttimefrancky had already metabolised his DMT and harmalas after 12h, SS can't explain his subsequent lack of sleep etc, and Rue + DMT will not create one. It's more with a realiser of serotonine + an IMAO, or something like MDMA and DXM (I stupidly did this mix in my youth, please don't).

The sensations may be psychosomatic, residual mental after effects after an heavy trip. Rest, grounding, heavy food, walks in nature, sport. Algodritmo you're spreading misinformation about a pharmacological event (SS) you seems to understand not so well. Maybe you should read more about the subject before alarming someone !

Keep us updated, it's extremely encouraging that you can sleep better now. It will certainly normalize fast from this point Smile
 
RoundAbout
#13 Posted : 5/23/2019 7:52:35 PM

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I've had some odd changes in the week after using large doses of psychedelics, and they quickly passed with time also.

Algodritmo wrote:
Glad you're ok, and indeed, if you don't keep taking substances that aggravate the problem, Serotonin Syndrome (I'm quite sure that's what you had...) should resolve on its own.


Both the MAOI and DMT would likely have left his system long ago, don't you think? And he didn't even show the symptoms of serotonin toxicity during the trip. I've never actually had serotonin syndrome, but I've noticed some of the other symptoms present while on oral DMT with an MAOI, and they were not subtle at all (particularly the hyperreflexia and agitation). The symptoms passed with the drugs.

Why are you so sure of yourself?

Algodritmo wrote:
The hypothesis of rooibos tea is preposterous... you'll die of just drinking too much liquid, before any substance in the tea will make any harm.


That's a pretty absurd claim to be so sure of with no evidence.

Why do you feel the need to make such a claim?

Algodritmo wrote:
Breathing, meditating, singing.... sure, you can also pray if you want, or play chess, or count sheep. In the end it's all "wait until it passes"... but, that only works when you're really not taking anything to aggravate the situation. Believing that those remedies are enough is what could make you keep taking those substances, and die... singing :-)


Death, huh?
 
ShamensStamen
#14 Posted : 5/23/2019 9:18:50 PM
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I've personally had Serotonin Syndrome back when i used to be on anti-depressants, i assure you, it's not Serotonin Syndrome. A lot of people like to throw the term Serotonin Syndrome around as if it's very easy to happen, but i took Rue and Mimosa/Acacia daily/near daily for 4 years in moderate to high to heavy dosages, as well as mushrooms/4-ACO-DMT with Rue a good sized handful of times, and not once ever got Serotonin Syndrome. Serotonin Syndrome is only likely to occur with Serotonin reuptake inhibitors or Serotonin releasers, not MAO-A inhibition + Serotonin agonists. There could be similar symptoms to Serotonin Syndrome but i assure you, it's not Serotonin Syndrome.

Also keep in mind that the rise in Serotonin and Noradrenaline levels due to the MAO-A inhibition can stick around for a few days to a week, but after that you'll go back to your usual neurochemistry.
 
Algodritmo
#15 Posted : 6/5/2019 1:55:39 PM

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As ShamenStamen said, "similar symptoms to Serotonin Syndrome". Serotonin Syndrome is not strictly defined though, so it might not be life-threatening (as the Serotonin Syndrome term is usually used for), but that doesn't mean that it's not a case of Serotonin Syndrome, in process of resolution, and relatively mild.

In any case, I prefer "alarming", than reassuring without arguments at all. We're not talking about a bad trip, which needs reassuring, but about physical effects days after... it's not time for "music and a walk". It's all fine if you want to believe in "entities" when you trip, or God, super powers, etc... but when those beliefs might put someone in danger, I think it's time to stick to proven science.

RoundAbout wrote:
Both the MAOI and DMT would likely have left his system long ago, don't you think?

Maybe, but the effects on the serotonin regulation system persist. They resolved, and that's what happened. But they resolved because he just waited. With the concept of "it's just your mind", someone might have suggested to take another trip, or MDMA to mellow out, etc.. and the consequences could have been bad.

RoundAbout wrote:
Algodritmo wrote:
The hypothesis of rooibos tea is preposterous... you'll die of just drinking too much liquid, before any substance in the tea will make any harm.

That's a pretty absurd claim to be so sure of with no evidence.

Why do you feel the need to make such a claim?

I could say exactly the same about the initial claim. Any reliable source citing dangers of Rooibos "overdose"? I can't find any. But, I can easily find hundreds on the effects of too much water... so, I think it's not me who needs to justify its claims.
Let's be honest: the Questionnaire is toooooo long and deep!

"One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws" - Martin Luther King
 
poisonous cat turd
#16 Posted : 6/5/2019 7:20:44 PM
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Perhaps you haven’t caused an effect with the DMT but realized something. In all seriousness, try dancing it out. I don’t mean when it’s happening dance, although maybe do that too. But put on some music and move. The sooner the better. Listen to your body, do not fear it.
 
RoundAbout
#17 Posted : 6/5/2019 10:45:49 PM

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Algodritmo wrote:
In any case, I prefer "alarming", than reassuring without arguments at all. We're not talking about a bad trip, which needs reassuring, but about physical effects days after... it's not time for "music and a walk". It's all fine if you want to believe in "entities" when you trip, or God, super powers, etc... but when those beliefs might put someone in danger, I think it's time to stick to proven science.

OK. You can convey your level of confidence through text though. "Music and a walk" seemed to work fine in this case, maybe even better than going to a doctor and telling them you have NMS or SS from all the illegal drugs you've been using.

This doesn't refute your point but it's worth noting that you don't have to believe in the supernatural to imagine (or experience) that taking massive doses of psychedelics might change your reaction to the world for a few days.

Algodritmo wrote:
Maybe, but the effects on the serotonin regulation system persist. They resolved, and that's what happened. But they resolved because he just waited. With the concept of "it's just your mind", someone might have suggested to take another trip, or MDMA to mellow out, etc.. and the consequences could have been bad.

The effects on serotonin regulation persisting is a major walk-back from serotonin syndrome days later requiring an immediate medical intervention. No one suggested taking another trip, some explicitly suggested taking a break. I doubt it would have been fatal though. Not using tryptamines seems like good advice... no argument there. Might as well be cautious.

Algodritmo wrote:
I could say exactly the same about the initial claim. Any reliable source citing dangers of Rooibos "overdose"? I can't find any. But, I can easily find hundreds on the effects of too much water... so, I think it's not me who needs to justify its claims.

Rooibos tea alone is very safe, but this is combined with other drugs... there's no need to say caution is preposterous. This caution is just based on reasonable speculation... much like your suggestions. Yet you're very confident in yourself and highly dismissive of others.

It's really not relevant and I don't see the point in discussing this further but here are two published sources suggesting liver toxicity in both humans and rats:

Possible hepatotoxic effect of rooibos tea: a case report

In vivo effects of Aspalathus linearis (rooibos) on male rat reproductive functions

I feel like I'm just bickering at this point.
 
 
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