Dune was released in 1965. At that time DMT was one of the rarest of psychedelics. Heroin and LSD were very common place at that time.

If anything, Dune's spice is more in line with heroin. It's like a psychedelic heroin, more addictive than heroin.

Why not let a conversation blossom 69ron?

I have no idea what you're talking about. We are already having a conversation. My view is that this connection is not realistic and that the spice in Dune is more like psychedelic heroin than DMT. I don’t see the parallels. So let’s talk about it.

If the thread is all to be one sided, that's no fun at all. We need someone to debate this idea and I seem to be the only one picking up the burden.

So far, I have not seen any good points other than posts from the fans of Dune wanting there to be a connection. There must be more to this. Maybe something hidden in the Dune stories that I've missed is making you guys think this link is there.

Other than the fact that DMT is called “Elf Spice” and the psychedelic heroin of the Dune stories is called “Spice Melange”, I see so similarities between the two. Dune describes the “Spice Melange” very well and it’s nothing like DMT. It’s so addictive that addicts die if they don’t have it. DMT is not addictive at all. To me, Dune is talking about heroin, but making it look really nice.

The “Spice Melange” in Dune, like heroin, is used only by people with lots of money because, like heroin, it’s very expensive. It also, like heroin, comes from a location that is far off and like a dessert. It comes from the desert sands of a planet called “Arrakis” which is vaguely similar to “Arabia”. The Arab world is the source of Heroin. Mostly desert places like Afghanistan produce heroin. Like heroin, it’s addictive.

I just don’t see the connection. I think Dune is talking about a mythical drug that is like heroin but with LSD-like effects at very high doses. Too many of the descriptions of the fictional drug parallel heroin for me to ever think that DMT has any relation to it at all.

When I first heard about “Spice Melange”, my first thought was, "oh shit, they're talking about heroin". That was my reaction. I didn't think about LSD or something like that.

So, those are my points, and I’d like to see the apposing arguments.

When I think of "spice" I think of elfspice and Mckenna

Over the past few months I've been reading through the series. I'm currently halfway through Chapter House Dune, which I think is the last book.

Several passages throughout definitely seem inspired by psychedelics. Herbert more than likely got caught up in the LSD craze of the late 1960s.

The most interesting aspect of the series to me is the Bene Gesserit and the Bene Teilax civilizations.

Bene Gesserits are an order which remind me of a cross between the Jesuits and Jedi, though it is matriarchal in character. Chapter House Dune, which is the Bene Gesserit home world, has a particular focus upon the Bene Gesserit society.

Bene Gesserits have superb control over their bodies, and have gained mastery over every single muscle in their body, not to mention their psyche. Through melange, they also have access to the memories of past lives stretching back to the dawn of time. In the Dune universe, they act very much like the Jedi, in that they seek to keep peace and gently guide humanity to maturity. Their foes are the Honoured Matres, who are very reminiscent of Emperor Palpatine and the Sith. But let's face it, Star Wars is a total rip off of Dune.

Bene Teilax on the other hand are a highly secretive, xenophobic, zealously religious order, that are masters of genetics. They have perfected cloning technology, and can revive original memories in clones, which allows virtual immortality.

Bene Teilax are composed of Masters, who through serial clone lifetimes, are thousands of years old, and they command Face Dancers, slave minions who can change their appearance much like the T-1000 in Terminator 2.

A fascinating and intricate series is Dune. Highly recommended to any serious sci-fi fans.

I'm going to have to agree with ron that DMT was probably not the drug Herbert was inspired by. He himself has admitted to Paul Staments and perhaps others that psilocybin mushrooms were one of his inspirations (the eyes turn blue of the fremen, the worms that eat it like worms that eat mushrooms, the spice is a powder like spores, the strong psychedelic effects at high doses). Herbert was fascinated with the fungal life cycle in general and the role they played ecologically. He knew about magic mushrooms ceremonies and perhaps tried them. He also wrote other books about fungal based drugs (the santaroga barrier). Of course he made up his own fiction like seeing into the past and future, super human powers, the addiction, the water of life, but of course he did its a fiction story thats the point to be creative.

But yea I think the original term spice comes from T Mckenna saying elf spice. All drug nicknames have weird funny originals like this. Where the heck does the word 'pot' come from?

Although I don't see how you didn't like Dune ron its a legend of a book I think I want to read it again after this discussion. I love the themes of the book the plots within plots the creativity was pure genius.

I think this thread got slightly derailed and pointed in a specific direction. I believe the original poster's question was if the term "spice" possibly came from the Dune literary works, and NOT if Herbert was specifically referring to DMT when he used the term "Spice".

With that said, I absolutely have to agree that the term "Spice" in the Dune trilogy had nothing to do with DMT. I do believe that the term "Spice" was used to define a psychedelic substance that was also a life giving, energy storing, greed developing element of sorts. I think the term "Spice" in the literature was a way to capture many of the earth given (or god given) substances on this planet that offer either enlightenment, useful resource, or drive corruption. I believe it was a literary amalgamation used to encapsulate the idea of moderation. The concept that anything "good" can and will bring about greed, dependence and evil if it is not properly respected.

So, NO. I don't believe that Dune was referring to DMT in its reference to "Spice", but I do believe it's unlikely, but possible, that the reference to DMT as "Spice" could have been influenced by the literary work of Dune. I personally don't think that's the case, but I wouldn't completely disregard the fact that the term from the book could have influenced the name "Spice" or "Elf Spice"

I tend to agree with 69 on this, and that the term "Spice" came about on it's own, due to it's natural qualities, but I wanted to call out that this conversation was driving toward the single sided question "Was Dune referring to DMT?" I don't think that was the original question on this thread. The question was "Is the term "Spice" from Dune SOMEHOW connected to the term "Spice" for DMT"?

Peace!
-idt

I know that it was I who kind of derailed the question.
I was not trying to tie the the connection between the word Spice and the book. I was simply stating that Frank Herbert was well aware of Shamanism and the uses of plants. The whole story had hints to that all through six books. It is not that he knew about specifically Freebase DMT, but he was extremely educated and did his research on the use of plants. Frank Herbert also referenced Aldous Huxley whom late in his life was heavy into mysticism. Anyway I wasnt trying to keep this thread alive by making a stretch, I was simply stating the similarities I saw.
I am sorry this thing got so heated ... I thought I was giving a valid opinion having read the books.


Some people in here act as if DMT didn't exist before the freebase.
People have been using it for centuries. Why would the inspiration have to come from a man dabbling in in lsd or any other drugs that was popular at the time he wrote the books? Why couldn't it be the fact that he was well read, extremely educated, and savvy to the world of shamanism.

Thank you, idtravlr. You're absolutely right. I did not ask if Frank Herbert was referring to DMT. This is why no one was arguing directly against your argument, 69ron. You were not addressing the question, nor did we disagree(and I stated this in a previous post) that Herbert was most likely referring to LSD or psilocybin. No one is saying that Frank Herbert was directly referring to DMT in his novels. Please stop arguing that point. It is moot.
[EDIT: nodice did say "So it is not that calling it spice here in the forums came from the concept of Dune, but more like the concept of Dune was inspired by our beloved Spice." I think this was the only mention of Dune being influenced by DMT. While I think it more likely that Herbert was influenced by magic mushrooms and LSD, nodice is right to point out the influence that the psychedelic experience in general played in Herbert's novels. In fact, I don't believe it was ever nodice's intention to single out DMT.]

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However, this thread has unexpectedly brought up some interesting issues.

1) The Spice from Dune has psychedelic properties, like all hallucinogens, including psilocybin, LSD and DMT.
2) A connection between heroin and the Spice from Dune was made.
3) The idea that DMT may have some deep role in our specie's future.

I hope to address these separately.

1) 69ron, you have said repeatedly that you do not understand the connection that people are making between Dune's Spice and DMT. Let me make it unmistakably clear. DMT is a powerful psychedelic. Dune's spice is a powerful psychedelic. End of connection. Move on. More specifically, Dune's Spice allowed some users to manipulate or eliminate time and space(for space travel, in the novels). Moving outside of time and space is one of the most common qualities of any strong entheogenic/psychedelic experience. I posted another thread in the Nursery about the P-R Mystical Experience scale, which gave 7 domains of the mystical experience. At least some members seem to agree that this scale accurately represents part of the DMT experience. I would argue that every one of the domains except 7(and i personally disagree with 7 being a requisite of a mystical experience at all) can be found throughout Herbert's descriptions of the Dune Spice experience. All powerful psychedelics produce similar experiences. The DMT experience has many similarities to other psychedelic experiences produced by different substances, including LSD and psilocybin. It is not an insult to the DMT experience to say it is comparable to the LSD experience or the magic mushroom experience. They have many very important similarities and also some very important differences.

2) I would argue that the only connection between heroin and the Dune Spice is addiction. Many things are addictive. This is no reason to single out heroin. 69ron also mentioned that like heroin, the Dune Spice is expensive. This is also a poor connection. Many things are expensive. More importantly, the Dune Spice was so mind-blowingly expensive that only the absolute most powerful rulers of the galaxy were able to afford it. Heroin is not this expensive, and at times heroin has been a blight on the working class, which is not wealthy by definition. Even more importantly, I argue that the addictive quality of Dune Spice is referenced in the novels only around one-tenth as often as the psychoactive qualities of the Spice is mentioned. Addiction to the Spice is only a rarely-used plot element, which pales in comparison to the important role that the psychoactive elements of the Spice plays in the series. To squash any remaining belief that someone may have for a connection between heroin and Dune Spice, please recall the qualities of a heroin experience. It provides intense relaxation and euphoria. These are not the qualities of the Dune Spice experience at all. Heroin is an abysmally poor choice of drug to compare to Dune Spice.

3) I happen to agree that inevitably psychedelic drugs will play a vital role in our future. The role, I believe, will be more from a religious or spiritual perspective rather than a super-soldier one, but a vital role nonetheless. In the Dune series, the Bene Gesserit use their Spice and power to control societies through religion. This does not seem an unlikely future to me, because the level of spiritual significance that even LSD and psilocybin produce is incredibly more profound than any trip to church, or any experience ever described to me by any man. I've never used DMT, but from what I've read it is even more awesome than LSD and psilocybin. Were a legal religion established in(or forced upon) the world, which used any of these substances as a sacrament, I do not see how any of the current major religions could survive.

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I'd would like to mention one theme in DMT trip reports that falls in line with the Dune Spice experience all too well. This is meant as just an interesting connection, not evidence of any kind that Dune Spice is our spice.

Most reports include mention that the User cannot remember the vast majority of the specifics during the trip. Despite this, everyone comes away with an amazing new understanding of reality. We don't have many memories of the trip, but everyone remembers the sense of the experience. The following quotes are from The God Emperor of Dune, during Siona's testing by Leto II, after ingesting potent spice from Leto's secrections:

"She went deeper and deeper into the darkness, far deeper than any other had ever gone."
"Could she possibly come back from those depths? The strength in her!"
"He could see her accepting it, the realization which few humans could share as she had shared it... singular multitude made all of humankind... family."
"No ancestral presences would remain in her consciousness, but she would carry with her forever afterward the clear sights and sounds and smells."

Is that not a part of the experience that this community shares?

And it appears that I was right about nodice. Thanks for clarifying, man. I think there was only one participant in this thread who misunderstood your point, a point I think is absolutely valid.

Kartikay, you make some good points, but to me the spice of Dune still reminds me of a mix of heroin and LSD. Those are the drugs that were popular during the time Dune was written. The addictive quality of the spice of Dune is so anti-psychedelic to me. For me that's a quality of things like cocaine, heroin, tobacco, etc., and not an element of the psychedelic experience. The spice of Dune did have psychotropic effects at very high doses, but it was more a drug of power and addiction than anything else. So for me it’s a heroin with LSD-like effects at high doses. Or actually, I should say a heroin with mushroom-like effects at high doses, because there are elements of mushrooms in the fictional spice drug as well as heroin. After all, it’s created by fungus in the story. But then again, so is LSD.

The DMT connection is the original post’s question. I just can’t see the connection there. DMT is not from fungus, it’s not from a dessert. It’s not a gas. It doesn’t smell like cinnamon. It’s totally not addictive. It’s psychedelic, not just at high doses like the spice of Dune, but at all doses where effects can be had.

Had the spice of Dune been smoked, and was crystals, and wasn’t addictive, then maybe I could see the connection. But the whole way it’s presented in the book makes it sound like psychedelic heroin to me. Even the tubes of spice mélange remind me of tubes of heroin ready for injection.

Well I'm going with elf spice also... but I can't say where the term was first used in that way. To be honest I've only heard of people calling it spice online. To everyone else it just seems to be "DMT"

It's not really popular enough to have a catchy street name, at least where I come from.

Major religions would definitely fail. However, would the newly established one do any better? While, I only speak for myself here but my experiences have squeegeed the lens through which I view the world. In my view of the world, the major religions do not have a place. Now, if there was an established church whose doctrine was founded on the use of entheogenic substances it would have to be well-intentioned. The beauty of entheogens is that they allow you to examine something at its core. From my perspective, an evil-religion based upon entheogens would fail solely because the supporters understand what it is after that first trip.

If we gave all the constituents of the Judeo-Christian religions massive amounts of entheogens I would predict a sharp decline in membership.




Same, I've never heard my local slang online. Just spice and dimitri

I just wanted to add that i have found and bought an old vhs copy of Dune and will be watching it tonight.
Ive not seen it before.

ah, the movie is not so good, xtechre. It's one of those movies that just doesn't do the book justice. If you haven't read the series, don't let the movie turn you away from ever picking it up.

The movie is boring. Most people that read Dune found it a disappointment.

I saw the dune movie before I read the books. I was young when I first saw it, and I have enjoyed watching it since reading the books. I agree that it is very different and quite limited compared to the books.

There is another dune movie that was originally a mini-series. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0142032/

They even did Children of Dune as well. It follows the book, but of course the scope is still limited.

I was reading this and need to point out why the link is frequently made between Mimosa Hostilis and the Spice Melange. If you take this link to a description to the Spice Melange there are 2 key clues that reveal why it is likely comparable...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melange_(fictional_drug)

1. Under the heading "description" there is the following reference to its tasting like cinnamon...
In Dune, Lady Jessica notes that her first taste of spice "tasted like cinnamon." "And the smell – bitter cinnamon, unmistakable"
If you look up Cinnamon in the Wikipedia youll find it is a bark which bears a striking resemblance to the Mimosa Hostilis Rootbark that DMT is extracted from...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon

2. Under the heading "Origin" reference is then made to its colour : when Leto II passes "the leprous blotches of violet sand where a spiceblow had erupted."[12]. Pink/Purple is what very potent Mimosa looks like. It can be reddish brown when its weak bark which is also referenced under "Description"
"mounds of dark reddish brown."

Finally a link to a picture of Mimosa Hostilis in case you doubt the efficacy of my statements. Before you pin me for mentioning someones business name let me just say that its the internet and you're powerless to stop me. Ok. All righty then...

http://www.bouncingbearb...tilis-jurema-p-289.html

They dont sell this stuff anymore anyway. So there you have it. My 2 cents. Bottoms up people...











http://www.bouncingbearb...stilis-jurema-p-289.html

Also a cool link for you to the Dune remake movie which I think will really suck... No seriously should be great. OK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLH3I9QuSCM

When I first found this place and started to see that people were calling DMT "Spice" I had a good laugh. I'm a big fan of the Dune Series and I had come to the same conclusions myself. The taste, the smell, the color.
The spice extends life. The spice expands consciousness. The spice is vital to space travel.

One of the main differences I could come up with (other than the indigo blue eyes) was the addiction aspect. Maybe DMT is addictive, but it doesn't seem to be in the same sense as many other drugs are.

That video is a fake. The new Dune movie is probably going to be very well done, Paramount Pictures is making it. Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson are consultants. I've been anticipating it's release for what seems like FOREVER. And it's probably not going to be released until 2014.