Many amazonian tribes would use ayahuasca to gain information which would be used to wage war on their enemies.
Alot of people believe in karma. Not so much nowadays, but earlier, The amazonian teretories were carved up into
segments.

Religions cause wars... Can DMT use and practice be considered a religion in its own right? sacrament and spirituality
seem to lead to peace and joy. Perhaps war is the price for that??

.... discussion go!

Yeah it was used that way and so was yopo in the same ways that aya and yopo were used to gain insight on where to hunt and also they were taken while hunting to enhance the senses..they used these things for everything basically..anthing they wanted information on..they used them to sort of hack into information behind reality..weather it be how/when to attack/defend against the neighbouring tribe or where they should set up the next camp and so on..

Look at amanitas and the vikings..the were bear shamans..the amanita's would bring about great strength and energy for battles and they would run around in bear skins and go "berserk"..but would they have still had war without them? perhaps..they might not havebeen so successful though..

I have heard that many native peoples think it is odd that we westerns would use these plants to somehow find god..to them they are just spirit helpers and a way to see..but not god persay..although there are some yopo and virola snuff mix myths I have read about them being created by their god so that they commune with supernatural beings and such..

It was different from tribe to tribe and between cultures etc I think.

The chavin were basically a shamanic people and they lived without war. They lived in peace and are well known for their use of san pedro and vilca seeds..I think they were wiped out by another culture eventaully..some try to argue that they had no war becasue the shamans used the san pedro and vilca seeds as a sort of mind controll..I dunno if I believe that but I guess it can go both ways..

But when you take a look at the meaning of these things I guess you could say that they were using them to find god/gods in a way..vilca literally translates to "sacred"..teonanacatl is "flesh of the gods"...is that religous..i dunno..is animism religion or something else?

I dont fully blame religion for war..there are plenty of athiests out there that are total assholes just as there are religous people..it's more a mindset of superiority that I blame..alot of tribal wars are basd on the concept of revenge..they feel they need to avenge the death of someone in their tribe..and on it goes..

there is a great video that I think is relevant to this I will post it when I find it..

here it is..it is 2 parts

http://www.youtube.com/w...L5fw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/w...U2d0&feature=related

Religion implies a codified belief structure based at least in part on non-empirical entities. DMT use itself does not necessitate this, although it may attract some people who are partial to intellectual laziness and want to interpret hallucinations as objective reality.

Yeah, and the zulu's too, with hybrid cannabis! (good sativa at that) sativa::shiva? *whistles*

that seems strange to me, since they allready know that ayahuasca has the spirit of all things, (giah) and that they are connected, one and the same, not seperate. That then seems odd to me that they wouldn't accept the same kind of idea (everyone is god, god is in all things)
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Death to the pacifists!!! No seriously though, others will do to you only what you allow them to and that comes from your sense of self worth, which comes from your mission, your goal, your sense of fufilment too.



forgiveness is the way to be all that you can be. Maybe, if you dont' forgive, you lessen yourself and probably allow anger to control you.

but the dalai llama in "open heart" that you must weigh up the pros and cons of allowing others to treat you that way, and if it will likely cause more suffering by allowing it to continue, then you should do something. If not, then forgive and move on.

thankyou brother!

Yes, religion is primarily orginisation; but perhaps there is some commonality to DMT users, there must be shared ideals or beleifs of somekind: which brings them together. attracts them to DMT in the first place. Do you beleive in like-attracts-like?
Maybe they had those ideas which lead them to DMT, maybe they picked them up from other DMT heads, or maybe they learned them from the sacrament. What is intellectual Laziness anything to do with choice? that deep, inner voice.

Consider all of the combined ritualistic behaviour that heads go to regarding this molecule - it boggles the mind. Its Almost obsessive. Part of me wonders if it isn't driven completely out of fear? I hope people focus on the central idea, purity, intent, restraint (frequency of use) rather than on lighting loads of candles, burning loads of incense, saying little prayers and all the other trivialities which come with.


That's completely acceptable! as long as it isn't considered a mental illness, or cause that kind of behaviour. Why does intellectual laziness have anything to do with how one chooses to interpret the visions?

I hope psychedelic use is not lumped in with religions beliefs because that would make me a hypocrite! I use it to expand my mind and to look at things in a NEW light it shows me the foolish folly of fundamental beliefs being taken literally as 100percent truth. It inspires change not more belief of the same. Not another set of erroronus beliefs that suit the mythology of the present time and state of human mind.

Humans have used mind control and intimidation to control one another since ancient times most likely even before spoken language was developed. I aint buying the mind control bullshit from other humans not matter how well intending it may be, people should THINK for Themselves! Yes it is much more difficult than following the pack but look were the pack has brought us some say the end is near Well the future is uncertain and the end is Always near yet I refuse to be intimidated I will continue to say up all night laughing and thinking as if every minute may be my last. And its all good to me even when its bad because that is normal life for a human.

I do not judge cultures by there beliefs so to me just because primitives in the Amazon use aya,plants,monkey teeth and magic darts to try to control one another that does not mean my psychedelic use is intended to produce the same effect in my very different culture.

Any more than I embrace the ignorant murder of the Christan Crusades yet I do believe in the Golden Rule and most of the Ten Commandments not because I am a christan but because I am a free thinker and advocate of Human Progress and Potential. Historically christians have done many many EVIL things but I have no remorse for accepting the few small yet important contributions they have given mankind. That said I am outraged and appalled by any religion or group that embraces supernatural thinking that harms or slows humanity's progress. We need new answers and concepts not more of the same.

Relegion is insanity to varying degrees from the catholic with five kids who can not provide food for them yet refuses birth control to the Muslim College graduate who leaves his faimly behind to travel to Pakistan to join the Genocide. Please Please tell me how they can be so ignorant? They have been brain washed a form of torture and they dont even know they are INSANE

So I say gleam your wisdom from any source you choose, utilize the positive aspects to benefit yourself and others and dont be afraid to point out things you think are wrong because this is what I call real progress. Throw away lies and useless speculation and base your life on the love of truth. We humans need more love and truth if we embrace these two things most of our proublems will dissolve much faster than they are currently.

Believe in yourself and do the best you can you cant lose! You will either reach your goal or you will die trying and I will be happy to accept either of these righteous fates

Peace
MV

fantastic responses

This is a vague paraphrase from memory, but there is a lot of discussion about this on the Aya forums. Some people say that the structure that evolved--small families living as far as possible from each other in the forest (out of fear for brujeria etc.) was actually beneficial in the way it forced humans to grow with the environment and maintain the forest.

(Feel free to enrich or further clarify...)

that is a gem! lovely to know. I wonder if it is really, really true? or just good old ego-inspired "THIS IS MINE I OWN IT, I KILL YOU IF YOU TAKE IT" selfishness. im sure some tribes trade, some work together. surely? I beleive the positive force is the only one which really counts. all else is just a little distraction you know, a quark which escaped sideieways and keeps everyone's attention for a moment, till they realise whats really important.

Traditional Indian society stratifies war and governance separately from religious tradition; however, the final stage of citizenship is referred to as sramana, which is the post-agrarian evolution of the tribal role of shaman, who--as a tribesman--is expected to practice all roles of manhood in the tribe--to include war. Nietzsche notes morality as taking on three distinct breeds: The master--born of the inevitability of war and governance within a society--the slave--born of the necessity of subservience and obedience within a society--and the ascetic, born of agrarian empowerment as the slave's vengeance upon the master. As the Indian caste system stratifies the brahmin above the kshatriya, perhaps the sramana is the reemergence of masterly impulses in contrast (and often opposition) to the priestly role of the brahmin, as a culmination of strong individualism which may in turn contribute to a strengthened collectivism--such as the Buddha and the ancient shamans exemplified.

The post-industrial age has apparently brought us full-circle to reconcile with our primordial origins and ancestry, and perhaps war stands as an indispensable legacy to be sublimated as a venue for growth and hygiene.

I wouldn't say that. In traditional cultures, Religion provides the framework in which everday life can be ordered. Religion can also be pretty flexible like kinship or any other cultural institution. If a society wants to attack, they often construct a religious conflict around a social conflict, or a conflict for ressources, to provide a legitimization.

Good example would be George W. Bush:

"God talks to me, the evil islamic terrorists must be destroyed in the name of Jesus...AMEN!"

The real conflict:

"We need cheap oil prices to sustain our power hungry, affluent society"

This happens also in small scale societies.

Let me tell you why I think that Religion seems so insane to us:

Because, Religion is not a part of everyday life but a rather seperate element in our non integrated, civilized society. Religion shows us the schizophrenic nature of our culture: Everything is seperate! There's no longer a common framework of thought holding us together. That's why law and order is so popular...as an attempt to use massive force to string a large number of people with different beliefs together.

Contact to the source and it's endless wisdom plays no role in a secular society. Going to church is also "insane" because it'S a surrogate for real communion with god. Church is like Candy is to sweet fruit...it's papermachê...there to satisfy the basic need for the transcendental, to prevent the re-integration of society.

It's the fight of the sick EGO against the subconscious forces of the collective unconscious. The Ego wants to be the number one..it doesn't allow the true inner voice to shine through, because it realizes , that we don't really need "it". We are so fixated on the ego, that the psychedelic expoerience seems so alien to us...in reality, the Ego is the Alien we came to accept as a friend.

Insanity definition

n., pl., -ties.
Mental illness or derangement. No longer in scientific use.
Law.
Unsoundness of mind sufficient in the judgment of a civil court to render a person unfit to maintain a contractual or other legal relationship or to warrant commitment to a mental health facility.
In most criminal jurisdictions, a degree of mental malfunctioning sufficient to relieve the accused of legal responsibility for the act committed.
Extreme foolishness; folly.
Something that is extremely foolish.
SYNONYMS insanity, lunacy, madness, mania, dementia. These nouns denote conditions of serious mental disability. Insanity is a grave, often prolonged condition that prevents a person from being held legally responsible for his or her actions: was judged not guilty for reasons of insanity. Lunacy often denotes derangement relieved intermittently by periods of clear-mindedness: yelled wildly in a moment of utter lunacy. Madness often stresses the violent aspect of mental illness: a story about obsession and madness. Mania refers principally to the excited, or manic, phase of bipolar disorder: prescribed drugs to control the patient's periods of mania. Dementia implies mental deterioration brought on by an organic brain disorder: underwent progressive stages of dementia.

It is exactly this definition that allows Muslims to murder there daughters and sisters if they have been a vicitum of a rape with no witnesses because if there are no witnesses it is surely the womens fault and she should be held responsible. This is insanity.

Just as the Jehovah's wittiness allows there child to DIE rather that accept a SINFUL blood transfusion that would save the childs life . This is insanity..

I could go on page after page with these examples. I will spare us all that.

With all due respect religion IS insanity to varying degrees!

"Extreme foolishness; folly.
Something that is extremely foolish.".......... That is a nice way of putting it

If we could pile up the corpses that have been victims to this insanity perhaps it would be more obvious. It is a shame to have to be in the minority that is not afraid to speak the truth

I do not enjoy making post like this but someone has to bite the bullet and take a stand

The easy path yields few rewards.

Peace
MV

It's their way of living. Who are you to judge that? Wouldn't this imply, that you value your culture higher? Well, this is something every culture seems to inherit: The feeling of beeing superior, knowing "what's best", beeing "human".

You say that this behaviour is insane. Who told you, that ratio is the ultima ratio ...do you see the irony?

I am on a debate break for the holidays

First of all no one is better than anybody! We just are and so we go.......every living thing = DIG?


It is a way of living and I RESPECT that BUT(so humble sorry...) that way is not compatible with technology so we are at the crossroads this much seems to be known.

Here is a mild response. Me I am nobody and do not judge in a cultural context but if you want to play with the big boys toys you have to show some responsibility.

Since we already have proven technologies that have the power to destroy us all and we understand how and why these things work as well as the very real power and danger of these things. We are past the threshold. The choice has been made.

Things are said and done rational intelligence is the path of humanity we already have Atomic Weapons we can not allow unchecked technology to be brandished by humans with extrem mythological agendas. We can not base the future on things that are obvioulsy false in the contex we have chosen to protray them in. Indeed it is our doing it does not have to be a sad story.

But yes I see the Irony it seems to be one of the predominant features of the reality I perceive. I do not intend to come across as a flame thrower and its all good because no matter what one believes humanity is at the Cross Roads and its our call. I believe in US ALL thats all I got

Yep I am one of those Human Potential and Progress Advocate WACOS......

One thing that most agree be it SCIENCE OR MAGIC......you Can Not put the Gennie(technology) back in the Bottle.

I love the culture and anthropological aspects of humanity its my passion!!!
It does not however make it fact.

Peace
MV

In short... yes.

People here look down upon religion but religion is just like drugs... it can be used to find the truth and to cultivate peace, or it can be used to brain wash and cause war.

To me what "we" believe IS a religion.

In short... yes.

People here look down upon religion but religion is just like drugs... it can be used to find the truth and to cultivate peace, or it can be used to brain wash and cause war.

To me what "we" believe IS a religion.

Many shamanic beliefs are wrong or downright dangerous. I don't see why people take everything that has the word "shamanism" put in front of it and think its automatically a good thing.

Shamanism in some form or another has played an important role in the development of all human cultures. But just like ALL human cultures there are good and bad parts.

I'm fascinated that the theme of our modern day psychedelic experience is an awakening, of one-ness, of love and kinship while the history of shamanic uses for guidance would include war.

I can't seem to reconcile those differences. It doesn't add up.

There is something different in this consciousness.

It is my belief that we have evolved, grown, our boundaries have expanded and while I respect our ancestors I question their wisdom on the grand scale. That applies to us and our revelations as well which, when considering "knowing what we don't know", means only much more profound human existences await us.

If democracy, peace, and understanding are of higher creeds than slavery, war, and territory then I have to argue on the matter of the shaman's isolated existence.