This just made me laugh to myself...

I have a VERY frustrated friend who joins me fairly regularly for Aya ceremonies. She is constantly irritated by the fact she only ever has a 50/50 shot at breaking through... She usually has to fast and drink absurd amounts of brew (probably her own MAO chemistry).

But, she IS a yoga teacher!!!

i bet her problem is shes trying to guide it too much

gotta go with the flow~~~

Saying reaching those states is impossible is being ignorant, Just as someone who said they have never tried spice would say that speaking to entities is impossible. Our minds cannot fathom somethings. Just because we don't know, doesn't mean it isn't possible. I have no doubts in my mind that there is the potential to reach states that high.

and as someone said "hallucinated themselves sober" this is also a possibility, probably a large amount of the stories this is what occurs. Whilst subjectively they may feel sober, they may not realize that they are in all actuality, pretty damn high.

As everything is a tuning to a different level, that doesn't mean that because say there is someone who is "immune to acid"...that doesnt mean if you feed them LSD crystals it wont affect them.

Another possibility is that some have a VERY different lifestyle/diet from the normal person and may have COMPLETELY different interactions with substances.

And then there is the contradiction of how can yogis be immune if, just by asking around here, you can clearly see that it, if anything, potentiates the effects. As house said, spice is a key. but what if there is a point that once you have opened the doors they remain unlocked?

You have no doubt...but why? Where is your evidence? You're just speculating.

i simply dont believe the human mind can manifest the same state as taking a dose of pharmahusaca
and i laugh at those that call it a shortcut what utter bullshit

Maybe, once upon a time, humans existed in A PLACE... a place of unified consciousness.

Something, maybe yoga can take us to, something, often we visit with psychedelics.

We can't see this place because we have spent so much time living in houses of illusion.

Would using a wrecking ball to knock down your house of illusions be a shortcut? What if you were using other methods that knocked it down more slowly, or differently?

In any case, we all have to clean up the horrendous mess we've created and come to grips with what is actually outside.

What if LSD has no effect, because a person has already learned how to come out on the second floor balcony and take a glimpse at reality from a certain angle? But what about the patio in the back? What about further down the street? What about the entire community made of houses of illusion?

And if you are living in a skyscraper of materialist illusions, I, personally, would say the wrecking ball is one of the only things that can get the job done. Especially if you look at the amount of change that needs to be affected within the group consciousness... What if you were simply born there? How do you learn? How do you get out? From where does the idea come that there might even be another way, another place?

(I threw a lot of vague words around, but when interpreting this post, please read intuitively and seek the heart of my analogy )

i totally see what you mean
but i still cry bullshit
lsd, dmt, psilocin.... these chemicals would have the same effect on their brains

I dont think it would be practical for a human to stay in that state all day. They would have to come down to get certain things done..unless they had slaves bringing them food, water etc..

And different psychedelics have different ranges of effects..

fractal - check out "The tibetan yogas of dream and sleep" by tenzin wangyal rinpoche
the bon practice interests me alot too.

psy "i just dont see meditation EVER taking you where a husaca analog can" - hrmm, maybe its time to start meditating more man, youd be amazed at its potency

there is no way any amount of meditation will manifest lsd molecules onto my receptors

i do meditate.. daily

Cool I will check it out thanks Phlux!

no for sure it wont psy - i just meant that amazing states of mind and amazing experiences can happen thru meditation alone - on strenght - at a par with any entheo.

yes meditation can be truly amazing
but comparable to a STRONG dose of pharmahusaca.. fiddle sticks

Your brain creates all of those images. Drugs are just a key that unlocks the trip.

I think dark room experiences can actaully get one preaty close to a full aya experience..only becasue I have had some VERY interesting experiences in the middle of the night after waking up at like 3am..but it's not as forceful and intense as ayahuasca or mushrooms etc..and it lacks the presense I feel with the plants..

But once the lights come on it all stops..I doubt people are going to LIVE in a dark room..

So I think that endogenous mystical experiencs are possible yes, but distinct and unique..tryptamine like but not a replacement for aya etc...but I dont think that people become immune to psychedelics becasue of it..

I also think that people probabily origionally took psychedelics in these dark room initiations. The 2 compliment each other so well.

One day I plan on doing a real dark room retreat just for the experience.

^^ Agreed. I mean even before falling asleep most nights in the dark, I am aware of more 'space' behind my closed eye lids, and get phosphenes and a little hypnagogic activity, and some subtle colours/pixels etc, and this is hardly any time.

I am very interested in doing a darkness retreat sometime. I have connected with some of the people who run a 3 day darkness retreat course here in the UK. Once you have completed this, if you so desire, you have the option of doing a 2 week darkness retreat!

I suspect though, that even a 3 day retreat could produce powerful results. And if anything, I think past psychedelic/plant use may only be an aid here.

During the retreat you wear one of these:

http://www.mindfold.com/ (HIGHLY recommended for all psychedelic explorers...think Alex Grey designed them).

Darkness is an incredibly ancient shamanic tool that has been used by cultures all over the world...in European shamanic traditions, by Vodoun priests, and by the Kogi tribe, where chosen babys are removed from their mothers and brought up for 19 years in darkness in caves, being taught via word of mouth from the tribal elders. When 19 the guy is then brought out of the caves to witness his first sunrise...

A little report on the 3 day darkness retreat:

http://www.guardian.co.u....theobserversuknewspages

A friend of me once joined a relious cult, many years ago after a heavy dose of psychedelics 'backfired' at him. In those days he claimed that chanting 'hare krishna' all through the day created a more intense feeling than any psychedelic known to man.
A few years later he left the pyama-people and started to use psychedelics again.

Now he says that back in those days he realy felt that meditating was a heavier drug then LSD, but that now he feels this is not true.

Another friend of me thought he was immune to LSD, while he actually saw the strangest things when he was on it.

So the mind is more complex than we think. If you truly believe that meditating will get you into nirvana, at some moment you might be convinced that you've reached a mindstate that goes beyond that of any chemically induced state, just because you're so convinced of it.

And if you truly believe that you're immune to acid, you might get lost completely while you're totally convinced that you're completely sober.

It can't be true, natural enlightenment has nothing to do with drugs, and tripping and enlightenment are two different things, right?

Anywyas, if you take enough you will trip, high tolerance or not, just upper the dose untilml desired level is reached.

Maybe when Yogi's take psychedelics they won't feel it so quick, maybe they are even on the same mindset, wich i highly doubt, but even then there will be a shift in their way of experiencing reality, how can it not?

You just added chemicals and those give a reaction in your brain, no matter how enlightened you are, psychedelics are of a different league, like acid and shrooms aren't causing the same effects, meditation and a psychedelic trip won't cause the same effects.

I can't state this with scientific arguements, i just spoke common sense here.

I dont know about defining enlightenment as "natural" or "unnatural"...what is more natural than ingesting a living, growing part of the earth around you to attain that level of conciousness?

I dont really see taking entheogens as unnatural..I see it as a very natural thing to do. This is where the word "drugs" gives people the wrong idea I think becasue of the negative and abusive stigma that surrounds the topic..

I like the term balance more..some use of psychoactives can be unbalanced while other forms of use can be in perfect balance with the individual.

I think that any way that ones reaches enlightenment is a natural way..there are many roads to that place..many mountain peaks one can sit and look down from..but it's the realizations that one has there that are important..doesnt really matter how you get there as long as you get there.