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Poll Question : Success in extraction of DMT using lime?
Choice Votes Statistics
Adequate or near-complete yields. 9 50 %
Moderate or inadequate yields. 0 0 %
No success or almost no yield. 3 16 %
Haven't tried it. 4 22 %
What's lime? 2 11 %


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A Poll to Gauge Members' Success w/ Lime Options
 
amor_fati
#1 Posted : 12/17/2009 3:02:17 PM

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SWIM's noticed that though most hearken to the tenets of nontoxic or food-grade or environmentally friendly extraction with the use of d-Limonene, very few have even explored the use of a household base such as lime, and even fewer embrace it. This poll is intended to gauge the community's familiarity and success with the methods in question, as well as to provide a place for questions, tips, and hypotheses in the matter.
 

STS is a community for people interested in growing, preserving and researching botanical species, particularly those with remarkable therapeutic and/or psychoactive properties.
 
amor_fati
#2 Posted : 12/17/2009 3:42:50 PM

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To start this off: SWIM's currently in the process of experimentation with the use of lime. From what SWIM's gathered on the nexus, the only manner in which lime can be used successfully is in a paste with the source material. From his experience as well as that of a few other SWIY's, the limiting factor in the success of a lime extraction is the thoroughness of the mixture; however, SWIM would add that the thoroughness of the pulverization and the homogeneousness of the mixture seem to be strong factors in the quality of the outcome.

From SWIM's experience, limteks (the manner stated above in conjunction with limonene) can be the easiest and most satisfying approach to extraction in general if used appropriately.
 
69ron
#3 Posted : 12/17/2009 3:55:47 PM

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As long as lime is used properly, you can achieve results as good, if not better, than lye, especially in a semi-dry tech. The tech needs to be designed for the lime though. It's not a substitute for lye. It's properties are very different from lye. It’s has advantages that are completely different from lye, and if leveraged properly, they can be used to your advantage in a tech.

The lime d-limonene tech for mescaline is a tech that works better with lime than lye. With lye, a horrible sticky mess is made.

It’s all about the tech. A tech designed for lye, should not be used with lime without modifying it to work well with lime.

Lime freebases slowly compared to lye, it’s water solubility is very low, so more time is needed for it to freebase, so often a lot is used to speed up the process.

The main advantages to using lime is that it’s many times safer than using lye, and can easily be bought in food grade form, and a purchase will not raise any suspicion. Lye is watched in some areas.

SWIM has successfully used lime to extract bufotenine, DMT, mescaline, and a few others. But the techs used were designed for lime. That’s the important part. If using a tech designed for lye, you will likely be very disappointed by swapping lime for lye. It’s just not an equivalent base. It’s a strong base, but it’s solubility properties and other properties require that it be used in a different way in many cases.
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amor_fati
#4 Posted : 12/17/2009 4:46:22 PM

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Well put, ron. While SWIM, himself, never attempted to utilize household bases (lime and sodium carbonate) in the same manner as lye (though certainly others likely have), he always had trouble in the beginning, simply because he didn't have a feel for the methods.

SWIM feels that it's possible that some were put off by many of the finicky factors involved in drytek extraction: The necessity of a completely moisture free extraction and the limitations posed by having to essentially terminate all reaction (through removal of moisture) prior to performing an acetone wash were likely the strongest factors in its lack of success. Though the demonstration of its more easily achieved success in bufotenine extraction indicates that it's simply a matter of material consistency and adapting one's methods in accordance with this.

None of the shortcomings of drytek extraction have been carried over with limtek extraction, though many of its advantages have (namely, less material, household bases, and smaller volumes of liquid). More people should give it a try. If you can do it with cactus, you can do it with MHRB or any other DMT-containing material, though it obviously demands a little tweaking to ensure success.
 
q21q21
#5 Posted : 12/17/2009 6:45:44 PM

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SWIM is going to pull his LIME STB on 250g MHRB which has been sitting for 2.5 days. At least in SWIM's somewhat cold house he found mixing every so often took about that long to stop yielding.

His attempt on 75g came with about .6% but there was a couple minor spilages and a lot stuck to the sides of the freezer jars he is now longer using.

It definately works but SWIM is yet to confirm yield potential.
Q21Q21's Tek: A comprehensive guide to extracting DMT
The 2 teks use non-toxic lime and vinegar and Tek 1: d-Limonene or Xylene or Tek 2: Naptha to produce very quick high yields with the greatest of ease.

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amor_fati
#6 Posted : 12/17/2009 8:05:46 PM

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SWIM's gotten 1.25% from ~300g MHRB with his limtek experimentation, so far. He's predicting that he'll be able to more than double his amount after pulling from the full 450-500g, which would outmatch his current lye yields (~1.5%), if that were the case (though he is expecting more from the lye, as well).
 
logos2012
#7 Posted : 12/17/2009 8:12:53 PM

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So what would be the correct way to use lime then in a STB tek? Ratios of lime and water on say on 250 grams bark? The aliens are curious to try.
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amor_fati
#8 Posted : 12/17/2009 8:30:34 PM

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logos2012 wrote:
So what would be the correct way to use lime then in a STB tek? Ratios of lime and water on say on 250 grams bark? The aliens are curious to try.


SWIM's always eyeballed it when it comes to lime or water for that matter. With his next experiment he will document material measurements, but he's just been kind of winging it lately (goes to show just how easy it can be). It's generally suggested to use anywhere between 1:2 and 1:1 with lime. With water, just make sure it's thoroughly moistened (no dry spots at all when stirring). Keep in mind that there's no lime solution at all, just a mass of doughy lime/MHRB, so it's not a standard STB. More lime and water can be used later on if yields aren't satisfactory, so it'd probably be better to undershoot the amounts used than overshoot; adding too much of each could make things much more difficult than they need to be, but there is plenty of room for error.
 
amor_fati
#9 Posted : 1/1/2010 6:35:08 PM

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ms_manic_minxx
#10 Posted : 1/2/2010 12:46:02 AM

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A dreamer followed 69ron's recipe with lime, on a very first attempt ever, and got around .5% yield. Dreamer used FINELY shredded bark (like, parmesan cheese + powder), and still did well. Obviously, there was room for improvement, but the efficacy of final product was not placebo, as dreamer is very well oriented with oral DMT realms.

The next expedition is a matter of increasing yields...

After continuing to read about and further grasp the process, dreamer powdered the bark, and after making the paste, revved it up again in a 2 horsepower blender (this blender > your lawnmower Razz )--so the consistency is MUCH different, and there should be ABSOLUTE surface area contact with every powdered grain of bark. The reaction taking place inside the bark, after the lime was added, also continued for a very long time, which was different from the first attempt. It will be a few more pulls before the final results are in, but there is so much more coming out, judging from the color saturation of the limo and amounts of fumarate crystals appearing.

The dreamer will share the final results when they arrive.

Dreamer can make alkaline water with an electrolysis water filter. Does anyone have thoughts on moistening the bark with basic water? Would this help the process, if working with lime? What pH would be ideal? Can this mixture become too basic and damage the molecule?
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memo
#11 Posted : 1/2/2010 2:46:03 AM

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SWIM had great results with cacti but is having a hard time with mimosa bark. He did a pull with limonene and then used an about 5% hcl water to convert and get the goods from the limonene. He evaped the hcl wash down until it was a brown thick liquid and then tried to convert the hcl to fumarate by adding .5 grams of fumaric acid to the hcl liquid. He then filtered it and added FASA. He set the mix aside and thought that he got a nice amount of dmt fumarate precipitated out. He tried to convert the fumarate to freebase with lime paste and wash with acetone but ended up with nada. He's thinking that all what he thought was dmt fumarate was just excess fumaric acid falling out when the acetone evaporated. He's thinking of trying to pull from the limonene with FASW next time but is wondering how much dmt the FASW can pick up if it is already saturated with fumaric acid. Anyway, he's going to keep trying to get a good non-toxic tek for MRB that works for him.
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69ron
#12 Posted : 1/2/2010 5:32:09 AM

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Memo, you can’t convert DMT HCl to DMT fumarate the way you tried to do it. That’s why you had no yield. DMT HCl should be still in the acetone. I hope you didn’t discard the acetone.

To make DMT fumarate from DMT HCl, you have to freebase DMT HCl first or it won’t work.
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memo
#13 Posted : 1/2/2010 6:59:23 AM

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That's good news Ron, I'll remember that. Maybe I didn't lose it. I rinsed everything that should have had freebase on it with naptha and then put everything that was salted back into damp lime and extracted with naptha. I put that all into the freezer. I have another limonene pull to try to get something from. I do want to get away from naptha as well as lye. I'll just have to keep practicing until I get it right.
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Dimitrius
#14 Posted : 1/2/2010 7:26:31 AM

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Vote goes down for 'Adequate or near-complete yields'.

Utilizing a 'dry' lime tek, 'Successful/complete yields' have resulted from cacti, MHRB, & chaliponga.

It's just all about physically mixing the stuff. Mixing it until it is sufficiently mixed/reacted. How long does this take, for this step or that step?....Dimitrius has an internal clock that tells him. Once he's been excessively thorough, or not so much, he usually moves onto the next step.

'Intuition'

It ain't gonna mix it self around. It's gotta have some help.
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amor_fati
#15 Posted : 1/2/2010 8:29:49 AM

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Dimitrius wrote:
It's just all about physically mixing the stuff. Mixing it until it is sufficiently mixed/reacted. How long does this take, for this step or that step?....Dimitrius has an internal clock that tells him. Once he's been excessively thorough, or not so much, he usually moves onto the next step.

'Intuition'

It ain't gonna mix it self around. It's gotta have some help.


SWIM couldn't have said it better himself. He's developed this sort of intuition all the way from extraction to vaporization to potentiation. Don't believe in teks, just blaze a trail to getting some spice in your blood as cleanly and efficiently as possible.
 
Dimitrius
#16 Posted : 1/2/2010 10:51:39 AM

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amor_fati wrote:
Dimitrius wrote:
It's just all about physically mixing the stuff. Mixing it until it is sufficiently mixed/reacted. How long does this take, for this step or that step?....Dimitrius has an internal clock that tells him. Once he's been excessively thorough, or not so much, he usually moves onto the next step.

'Intuition'

It ain't gonna mix it self around. It's gotta have some help.



.....just blaze a trail to getting some spice in your blood as cleanly and efficiently as possible.


Amen!
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amor_fati
#17 Posted : 1/5/2010 9:43:50 PM

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Who's the joker!?Rolling eyes

Quote:
Calcium hydroxide, traditionally called slaked lime, hydrated lime, slack lime, or pickling lime, is a chemical compound with the chemical formula Ca(OH)2.
 
memo
#18 Posted : 1/11/2010 2:14:19 AM

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I think that I used too much water when I tried the MHRB extraction with lime and failed. I realize now that it didn't have that tell tale ammonia smell that tells you that the lime is basifying the alkaloids. Every time that I have been successful using lime the drying lime paste gives off an ammonia smell. It's a good idea not to throw away anything until you have your end product in hand.
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amor_fati
#19 Posted : 1/11/2010 3:08:17 AM

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memo wrote:
I think that I used too much water when I tried the MHRB extraction with lime and failed. I realize now that it didn't have that tell tale ammonia smell that tells you that the lime is basifying the alkaloids. Every time that I have been successful using lime the drying lime paste gives off an ammonia smell. It's a good idea not to throw away anything until you have your end product in hand.


SWIM never really worried about the smell. You dried the basifying mixture prior to extraction? If so, that's where SWIM would guess your problem lies, as it can be difficult to determine whether reaction has gone to completion prior to drying.

SWIM's thinking that one aspect of limtek extraction worth tackling may be an efficient way to regulate the amount of water used. Heat/acid treating the bark in vinegar prior to adding lime is a good way to ensure that the bark is completely moist (thus, prepped for basification), though a bit more water should probably be added along with the lime. Generally, as long as the mixture's fairly homogeneous, it would be difficult to add too much water; though it may result in the consistency of oatmeal, rather than dough, if a bit too much is added.
 
amor_fati
#20 Posted : 1/12/2010 2:35:49 PM

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Well we're not talking about NaOH (lye), but sodium carbonate is often found to be a poor substitute for lye. Assuming SWIY meant Ca(OH)2 (lime):

Sodium carbonate is generally considered to not be strong enough to help break down plant material, but with cebil having such a high percentage of actives and with such a soft and easy to pulverize structure, it is ideal for drytek extraction using sodium carbonate. Not to say it doesn't work, but the texture and absorbancy of material mixed well with lime makes it ideal for this sort of use with an NPS like limonene. Lime is also a stronger base, despite not being incredibly soluble in water. SWIM only uses sodium carbonate in conversion from fumarate to freebase.

Or perhaps SWIY means sodium carbonate in place of lye, rather than lime in place of lye? The same as above still pertains, but it's important to mention that neither can directly replace the use of lye. To be used effectively, household bases are not used in solution as with lye.
 
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