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Veganism and Insects: To Kill or Not To Kill Any Being? Options
 
FranLover
#1 Posted : 1/27/2019 9:21:36 PM

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At 13 I became a vegetarian touched by the pain animals have to suffer. Lasted three years till 16 and by then I was very weak at boxing/taekwondo (I knew nothing of nutrition and healthy eating. A baby really) and had lost my reason for doing it (girls, girls, girls)

A month ago I had a trip where red/pink (insect?like) angels went into my stomach and worked their magic there. When I awoke I felt absolutley disgusted by the thought of chicken breast. I can still vicserally feel that same disgust, whereas before I never had had it. Upon awekening, that very second I became a vegetarianism and never ate any animal again and will stop using milk or butter after watching videos of cow and poultry factories last night...very sad that such tortures are legal on Earth.

Has anyone any philosophy to offer surrounding killing insects? I do not want to kill any insects, but fruit flies for example leave me no choice as they infect my room because of my caapi and tomatos and brocolli and they sting me all night. So I do clap kill them when I see them and use the gardening yellow sticky thingies that trap them.

I have refrained from killing ants and havent killed them in days and when I see them on my pc or something I just ignore them...but what if my kitchen were to be infected? I would certainly then have to throw some raid there.

I know many of you are much older and wiser and so if you have any knowledge to offer concerning such thoughts and emotions I am all ears :}
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If it should rain we'll let it
But for tonight, forget it!
Cause I'm in the mood for love
 

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Brennendes Wasser
#2 Posted : 1/28/2019 2:53:41 AM

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Well of course is killing insects not that morally heavy if you COULD argument, that those are insects that may harm your daily routine (like mosquitos or plant harming insects).

But as for fruit flies: if you put any residues of edible stuff on the table when youre done with it, then I guess there should not be any of those?

I know this thing ... you simply eat a peach and that garbage remainings are feeding 100s of flies 2 days later.

Then when I strictly try to avoid letting things lie on the tables and when I put a plate on the biological waste, so nothing can get in or out - and also empty it every 2 days - then there are no fruit flies or any other annoying insects (that are connected to eating the human waste in your flat hehe).


So this is just an example, but I guess you could work your way around them hehe.

I just kill insects that harm my plants or mosquitos ...

The only exclusion are moths, they must be killed before they can escape somewhere and lay eggs into your groceries : S
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endlessness
#3 Posted : 1/28/2019 9:49:15 AM

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I think it is commendable when people attempt to avoid hurting other lifeforms unnecessarily. It is a sign of search for consciousness and conscience, of being aware of how one's actions affect others.

That being said, I also think sometimes us humans can be mislead by the stimulus we receive through our senses. There is a saying in my language that says "what the eyes don't see, the heart doesn't feel". I say that because you are talking about the insects in your house, but do you really think as a person living in a modern world, this is the biggest damage you create? Do you live in a city? Do you buy food that isn't in season and/or that is coming from anywhere else other than your town? Do you drive a car? Do you ever go on an airplane? Do you own a phone, and how often do you change it? Do you own a computer, and how often do you change it? etc..

I ask these questions not to actually doubt you or to put you on the spot, they are rethorical questions meant simply to bring to the discussion the idea that there are so many other actions that may seem "innocent" and therefore might be ignored, but are actually causing way more damage to all sorts of different lifeforms. How many animals (including insects) are killed by the mining practices to get coltan to make computers and phones? How many animals die directly and indirectly when buying an industrialized vegan product in a health food store, with the transport from far away, the plastic wrapping (and the petrochem extraction to make it as well as the discarding process after), etc etc ? Does a mosquito at home once a day even remotely compares to the scale of damage we can create with all these other actions?

Lastly, I just want to say that my words are not meant to discourage. I think it's good to question and try to be less damaging directly. But don't overstress yourself, imo it is way more about a general direction in life, trying to buy season and local, trying to avoid damage, trying to avoid buying anything industrialized and mass produced unless strictly necessary, contributing to the world in positive ways, etc etc, rather than giving too much importance to a specific moment when you kill a mosquito or whatever.

Smile
 
Northerner
#4 Posted : 1/28/2019 10:40:19 AM

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off topic post deleted Razz

Started talking about natural foods and missed the point.
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
 
dragonrider
#5 Posted : 1/28/2019 11:42:44 AM

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endlessness wrote:
I think it is commendable when people attempt to avoid hurting other lifeforms unnecessarily. It is a sign of search for consciousness and conscience, of being aware of how one's actions affect others.

That being said, I also think sometimes us humans can be mislead by the stimulus we receive through our senses. There is a saying in my language that says "what the eyes don't see, the heart doesn't feel". I say that because you are talking about the insects in your house, but do you really think as a person living in a modern world, this is the biggest damage you create? Do you live in a city? Do you buy food that isn't in season and/or that is coming from anywhere else other than your town? Do you drive a car? Do you ever go on an airplane? Do you own a phone, and how often do you change it? Do you own a computer, and how often do you change it? etc..

I ask these questions not to actually doubt you or to put you on the spot, they are rethorical questions meant simply to bring to the discussion the idea that there are so many other actions that may seem "innocent" and therefore might be ignored, but are actually causing way more damage to all sorts of different lifeforms. How many animals (including insects) are killed by the mining practices to get coltan to make computers and phones? How many animals die directly and indirectly when buying an industrialized vegan product in a health food store, with the transport from far away, the plastic wrapping (and the petrochem extraction to make it as well as the discarding process after), etc etc ? Does a mosquito at home once a day even remotely compares to the scale of damage we can create with all these other actions?

Lastly, I just want to say that my words are not meant to discourage. I think it's good to question and try to be less damaging directly. But don't overstress yourself, imo it is way more about a general direction in life, trying to buy season and local, trying to avoid damage, trying to avoid buying anything industrialized and mass produced unless strictly necessary, contributing to the world in positive ways, etc etc, rather than giving too much importance to a specific moment when you kill a mosquito or whatever.

Smile

I think these are wise words.

Furthermore, i would say that some creatures are less likely to be self-aware than others.
So most fish, and all insects, for instance, do not have very advanced brains and do not realy show any signs of having emotions or self-awareness.
Contrary to almost any mammal and many birds.

So what i mean with that, is that if you find that you do need fatty acids and proteins from an animal source, it would be better to avoid mammals and birds.

As a human you have to eat. And it is simply impossible to leave no footprint on this planet at all. So the best thing that you can do is to minimize the pain your existence on this planet causes. And a simple way to do that is setting priorities.

Eating fish instead of meat already decreases suffering, because fish do not suffer as much as mammals do. Eating fish that aren't nearly extinct decreases it further, because it will have less impact on the oceanic eco-system. Then, if you are in europe, eating fish that was caught in european waters, will have an even smaller impact on the ecosystem because there are quota there, for how much fish is allowed to be caught.
 
Tony6Strings
#6 Posted : 1/28/2019 12:57:31 PM

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In my years on this planet i have dealt with infestations of scabies, lice, bedbugs, and most recently cockroaches. I will kill any bug nesting on me or my family or in our home.
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dreamer042
#7 Posted : 1/28/2019 4:36:37 PM

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Just remember, every garden pest has 8 foot tall hyperspacial cousins, and one day you are probably gonna have to answer to em. Crying or very sad

Insect control is a fact of life, some will bite ya, some will kill your plants, some will infest your space. Stand where you like on the ethical spectrum, if they become a problem, it has to be addressed.

Many insects, particularly small flying ones, are easily captured in a vacuum.

Larger insects can be caught with a jar and a slip of paper and taken out to the garden.

Ants follow a scent trail, this is why they walk in single file, clove essential oil will kill them on contact, find their entrance to your home and cut the trail with a bit of the oil on a cotton ball, they will stay far away.

Spiders and several other insects do not like lavender essential oil, hitting the corners and base boards with it every so often is a useful control and prevention measure.

Scabies can be taken care of with heavy (3x daily) use of sulfur soaps in the shower.

If you have to break out the big guns for things like bedbegs and cockroaches, a sprinking of diatomaceous earth will shred their exoskeletons, it's a brutal way for em to go, but it's effective, and much safer for your home and it's inhabitants than chemical insecticides.

Anyone else got tips and tricks for natural pest management? Post em up! Thumbs up
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dragonrider
#8 Posted : 1/28/2019 7:38:37 PM

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Incense.
 
FranLover
#9 Posted : 1/28/2019 8:13:06 PM

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dreamer042 wrote:
Just remember, every garden pest has 8 foot tall hyperspacial cousins, and one day you are probably gonna have to answer to em. Crying or very sad

LOL! This is soo truee. Or how Witgeslnstein would say "true enough!"
And if there's a cloud above
If it should rain we'll let it
But for tonight, forget it!
Cause I'm in the mood for love
 
FranLover
#10 Posted : 1/28/2019 8:35:53 PM

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endlessness wrote:
That being said, I also think sometimes us humans can be mislead by the stimulus we receive through our senses. There is a saying in my language that says "what the eyes don't see, the heart doesn't feel".


Very true. Even eating yogurt is eating a living being...and I supose eating yeast aswell. So it gets pretty ridiciouless pretty fast.
Plants seem to be the real food of the earth, placed here for us to eat. A Corn field is a logarithymic miracle. But the talking ape even managed to mess that up with GMO seeds, seemingly irreversibly. But that ocurrs in acres and acres of fields...unseen...unfelt. Oh man, life is a trip!
And if there's a cloud above
If it should rain we'll let it
But for tonight, forget it!
Cause I'm in the mood for love
 
Nicita
#11 Posted : 1/29/2019 2:24:59 AM

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dragonrider wrote:

Furthermore, i would say that some creatures are less likely to be self-aware than others.
So most fish, and all insects, for instance, do not have very advanced brains and do not realy show any signs of having emotions or self-awareness.

Eating fish instead of meat already decreases suffering, because fish do not suffer as much as mammals do.


I'd be careful directly connecting structure and size of nervous system to mental capacity.
Mantis Shrimp for example have what would be considered a very primitive nervous system without even a brain (similar to insects) and yet display very complex behaviour; communication, pair bonding, use of construction material for their burrows, ability to learn and in aquariums they are able to recognize the human that feeds them.
Octopuses also don't really have anything that resembles a mammalian brain, but I think by now we all know how smart they are.
A lot of beings seem to be controlled mainly by instinct, but our inability to observe emotions or self awareness doesn't mean they are absent.
Then there's the whole issue with the ability for suffering. Just because a fish doesn't scream does not mean that they feel any less pain than you do. Or does it make a difference if you torture someone smart or someone stupid?
Pain is really a very basic and fundamental survival mechanism.

And it gets even better:
FranLover wrote:
Plants seem to be the real food of the earth, placed here for us to eat.

Part of the vascular system of plants, the phloem has been shown to pretty much act the same way as an animal neuron. It is constantly polarized at around -150mV compared to the tissue around it and when a stimulus comes in (in a lab setting you usually burn or cut the end of a leaf) it depolarizes in a way that pretty much exactly looks like the action potential of a neuron on a longer time scale (a neuron de- and repolarizes in ms, a phloem depolarizes in ~10-20s and takes ~5min to repolarize)
So if a plant basically has nerves, it has physiological prerequisites to feel pain Confused

And then there's mushrooms, whose mycelial network can become much much bigger and interconnected than a human neural network. But that's ok, since they make us eat only their penises instead of their bodies Laughing

Acknowledging all this and trying to avoid this leads some people to eating frutarian or following Jain principles.

Now we all have to eat to survive, so you pretty much have to decide for yourself what kind of suffering to what beings you are ready to accept for your own survival, well being and pleasure.

I personally think the best way to do it is to eat as much as possible out of your own garden, because in that way you have a net positive impact on living beings, having created habitat for many many times more beings that you take lifes for your sustenance.
You don't want to avoid leaving a footprint and feel guilty for being alive. You want a footprint that is so big and green that you can see it from space.Love


And always keep karma in mind Big grin
dreamer042 wrote:
Just remember, every garden pest has 8 foot tall hyperspacial cousins, and one day you are probably gonna have to answer to em. Crying or very sad

 
Auxin
#12 Posted : 1/29/2019 5:25:56 AM

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I'm a vegan, but a practical one. I kill garden pests.
If I find a bug in my house I carry it outside, I even let a few spiders stay, but in my garden I take the name 'Squash Bug' as an instruction manual. It tells you where to find the bug, what the bug eats, and what to do with the bug. Sorry, little squash bug.
If I didnt kill garden pests they would decimate my gardens production enough that I'd have to buy more vegetables and fruit to compensate. Doing so would just pay other people to kill bugs and in exchange I'd pay ten times as much money for less nutritious food while causing more pollution.
Oh, and I kill every black widow spider I see because, black widow! Shocked
Be a practical vegan.
 
dragonrider
#13 Posted : 1/29/2019 9:35:38 AM

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The problem is that we just need some fatty acids and vitamins that are only found in animals and maybe some algea.

I've known many vegans, but never met anybody who was a vegan for over five years who didn't either took food supplements, or had serious health problems.

And most vegans i've met seemed to have health problems. Often things like anemia, yeast infections or things associated with a realy weak immune system.

There was a whole thread here, concentrating on the question "why are most vegans such assholes?", and many people there complained about encounters they have had with vegans.
And i think that this bad reputation vegans have, is actually because many of them have depressions or chronically bad moods....caused by malnutrition. Vitamin B deficiancy alone is known to cause depressions.

So what i mean is: try to minimize your intake of animal products, but not to zero. So i personally eat some fish every once in a while, or some non-industrial eggs or cheese.
 
Tony6Strings
#14 Posted : 1/29/2019 3:10:59 PM

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Dreamer 042 thanks very much for the useful information!
olympus mon wrote:
You need to hit it with intention to get where you want to be!

Let it be known, there is a fountain that was not made by the hands of man.
 
Auxin
#15 Posted : 1/29/2019 7:24:25 PM

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dragonrider wrote:
The problem is that we just need some fatty acids and vitamins that are only found in animals and maybe some algea.
The only vitamin vegans cant reliably get from diet is B12. There is no credible evidence that vegans need DHA, although there is some scant evidence that it might help in some specific circumstances. Our bodies make some DHA and we need that little.
dragonrider wrote:
I've known many vegans, but never met anybody who was a vegan for over five years who didn't either took food supplements, or had serious health problems.
I only take B12 and have been vegan for over 8 years, this is by far the healthiest I've ever been. I'm stronger, faster, my stamina is amazing, and I almost never get sick. Like literally, only every 2 or 3 years do I get a cold and I havent had the flu since before going vegan. Sickly weak vegans are most likely that way because they are crapitarians. If you only eat crap you'll be sickly and weak.
dragonrider wrote:
"why are most vegans such assholes?"
This isnt a vegan thing, this is the 3-year rule. When people go gung-ho on anything they tend to be annoying evangelical loudmouths about it for 3 years. Change religion? Go vegan? Animal rights? Feminism? Start collecting cowboy boots? Start drinking wine as a hobby? Cannabis? Discover the opposite sex? If they love it they just wont shut up for 3 years. I heard a buddhist monk suggest that new converts be barred from talking about buddhism for 3 years so they wouldnt run around, annoying people... and a year later a (non-buddhist) vegan I know said almost exactly the same thing about veganism Laughing
 
dragonrider
#16 Posted : 1/29/2019 8:00:00 PM

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Auxin wrote:
dragonrider wrote:
The problem is that we just need some fatty acids and vitamins that are only found in animals and maybe some algea.
The only vitamin vegans cant reliably get from diet is B12. There is no credible evidence that vegans need DHA, although there is some scant evidence that it might help in some specific circumstances. Our bodies make some DHA and we need that little.
dragonrider wrote:
I've known many vegans, but never met anybody who was a vegan for over five years who didn't either took food supplements, or had serious health problems.
I only take B12 and have been vegan for over 8 years, this is by far the healthiest I've ever been. I'm stronger, faster, my stamina is amazing, and I almost never get sick. Like literally, only every 2 or 3 years do I get a cold and I havent had the flu since before going vegan. Sickly weak vegans are most likely that way because they are crapitarians. If you only eat crap you'll be sickly and weak.
dragonrider wrote:
"why are most vegans such assholes?"
This isnt a vegan thing, this is the 3-year rule. When people go gung-ho on anything they tend to be annoying evangelical loudmouths about it for 3 years. Change religion? Go vegan? Animal rights? Feminism? Start collecting cowboy boots? Start drinking wine as a hobby? Cannabis? Discover the opposite sex? If they love it they just wont shut up for 3 years. I heard a buddhist monk suggest that new converts be barred from talking about buddhism for 3 years so they wouldnt run around, annoying people... and a year later a (non-buddhist) vegan I know said almost exactly the same thing about veganism Laughing

There is indeed something to that 3 year rule. I don't know how many people i bored to death with my hobbies.

But the thing is, veganism isn't for everybody. I have known a couple of people who went vegan and realy didn't like it (because they felt tired all the time and got health problems), and maybe if they would have been a little less strict, they would not have quit trying to live an animal-friendly life.

Everybody can eat less animal products easily. But not everyone manages to live a completely vegan lifestyle. So i think i probably killed less animals in my whole life, than someone who went vegan for a couple of years, and then decided to quit that lifestyle completely.

Anyway, good for you that you manage it. The less we kill, the better.
 
FranLover
#17 Posted : 1/29/2019 8:31:01 PM

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I think exercising every other day would solve all health issues. Protein of brocolli way better than protein of meat too! But one needs to be eating fruits and vegetables more than anything else.
And if there's a cloud above
If it should rain we'll let it
But for tonight, forget it!
Cause I'm in the mood for love
 
Auxin
#18 Posted : 1/29/2019 10:24:01 PM

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If I knew someone wanting to genuinely improve their health I'd encourage them to radically improve their diet before even starting to exercise.
I was raised on a diet exclusively comprised of meat and junk food. My mother never even learned to cook and we were discouraged from eating fruits and vegetables. I was always weak and tired and groggy with no stamina. Eventually, entirely on my own accord, I decided to fundamentally and totally overhaul my diet to a pre-industrial whole foods vegan diet. I cooked everything from scratch. Difficult, since my families idea of cooking was always to microwave a frozen cheese burrito, but I did it. Then something strange happened. Over the first few months on a dramatically healthier diet I suddenly had more strength and stamina than ever before. Not having a girlfriend I started running and lifting weights just to get some use out of all the free stamina, something I had never intended or even contemplated. I had never been into sports of any kind before. Good diet makes exercise much easier.
Also, I've seen clinical papers showing that a dramatic improvement in diet will reduce risk of heart attack by 90% in 3 weeks and cure hypertension in the same time period. If someone is at risk for heart attack, reducing that risk by 90% before starting to exercise would be a very good idea.

When your trying to be compassionate to animals, dont forget your an animal too.
Stay away from vegan junk food.
 
Auxin
#19 Posted : 1/29/2019 10:50:24 PM

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dragonrider wrote:
I have known a couple of people who went vegan and realy didn't like it (because they felt tired all the time and got health problems)
Thinking about it now, I did make a mistake earlier. I supplement with B12 and iodine.
When I went vegan I knew that new vegans accidentally consume fewer calories. I ate more food and still felt tired the first few days because I still wasnt eating enough. Many people dont understand how much lower in energy density healthy vegan food is. You simply cant go nutrient deficient in a week so if a new vegan feels tired theyre most likely not eating enough food.
The one health problem I got was eventually going iodine deficient. Iodine deficiency is much more common than most people believe, even in first world countries. Adding some sea vegetables to the diet can fix it.
Expect to see lots more hypothyroidism in the coming years. The dairy industry in many nations, including the US, is phasing out iodine disinfectant and contamination of the milk supply by chemical disinfectant has long been a primary source of dietary iodine in the west. Table salt simply doesnt have enough to be a viable source.
American doctors dont address iodine deficiency with supplements or sea vegetables, they put you on hormones and require twice yearly blood tests. It makes them far more money than supplements would.
 
Tommi
#20 Posted : 1/31/2019 8:05:47 AM
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Not to kill any being. I am very up towards vegetarian diet. However cold climate and native diet that includes smoked pig meat and potatoes with meat makes difficulties for me to totally get rid of it. I am imagining something like 3D printed meat, or so. Reatomise rye into meat. Very happy
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