CHATPRIVACYDONATELOGINREGISTER
DMT-Nexus
FAQWIKIHEALTH & SAFETYARTATTITUDEACTIVE TOPICS
12NEXT
Serious query- woodlovers paralysis anyone? It is not a myth! Options
 
null24
#1 Posted : 11/17/2018 2:33:24 PM

not a derogatory robot


Posts: 3540
Joined: 21-Jul-2012
Last visit: 11-May-2021
Never personally experienced this although do know some individuals who claim to have. Apparently on only a decent dose of the cyans I've recently harvested, one person said they lost the use of their legs. The other day i lemon tekked a gram or so and my hands stopped working, idk if it was because of the cold weather, but that's not normal. I could not put my wallet in my back pocket, my pinky and thumb just flopped around and i had no strength or control of my wrists or most fingers. Again, I'm not sure of the direct cause, by i wasn't high enough to have experienced a hallucinatory sensation. It was frustrating to say the least.

According to my most mycologically inclined friend, and he most likely got this directly from one of Stamets' books, the "woodlovers paralysis" is caused by a bacteria that can be destroyed through making tea with the mushroom. (See my other thread on tea recipes) Apparently boiling water will inactivate it.

I'd like to not experience this, worrying about nervous system damage is counter-productive to my aims and goals with these mushrooms. I'd like to get the end-all down-low on this subject and also hear from anyone that has personal or verified anecdotes to recount. Thanks!

After doing a little more reading-(I'm really only getting one hit-THIS -which may or may not be run by Compa$$) which states that there is no consensus and contains several anecdotes debunking boiling as a safety measure. It suggests histamines being the main culprit, perhaps through a bacterial contamination. The article suggests Benadryl to treat it.

At this point I'm juggling which is the worse contemplation- being paralyzed for a temporary period or tripping on Benadryl. I'm leaning towards the former.

The plan was to drink some tea today and go out to psychedelically enjoy this strange November spring northwest Oregon is experiencing which sucks for the actual mushrooms but is nice for the tripping but I am pretty certain that the paralysis is part of these particular shrooms.

Sine experientia nihil sufficienter sciri potest -Roger Bacon
*γνῶθι σεαυτόν*
decrimART
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
null24
#2 Posted : 11/20/2018 2:46:31 AM

not a derogatory robot


Posts: 3540
Joined: 21-Jul-2012
Last visit: 11-May-2021
Okay, so i have indeed experienced the paralysis, as have about 2/3 of those who've eaten from the same batch.

The deal with my hands was indeed WLP, and the same thing, along with leg and facial effects have been reported. All have resolved within ~8 hours of onset.

I've experienced it on what i would call threshold doses, one mature mushroom less than a gram, and another time when i felt no effects cognitively or any body load but indeed had floppy hands. It kinda really sucks, and adds an unpredictability factor. It seems basically harmless beyond the annoyance, but it's hard telling people they are and then "oh, by the way..." And then tell them there's no research on it.

I have tried my tea made with fresh caps and had a great effect with no paralysis.

I have a theory that it's based on substrate, i wish i hadn't mixed up my collection from three different patches out of the same area...

More reporting as i do more research. There is no reading to do on it that i can find. Help!

Anecdotes?

Theories?
I haven't tried Benadryl... Any low side effect effective anti histamines that would be okay to take with psilo anyone know of?

Links?

Thanks.



Sine experientia nihil sufficienter sciri potest -Roger Bacon
*γνῶθι σεαυτόν*
decrimART
 
dragonrider
#3 Posted : 11/20/2018 1:04:48 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Moderator

Posts: 2279
Joined: 09-Jul-2016
Last visit: 10-May-2021
Location: spacetime
This sounds realy serious. It looks like it is indeed some sort of bacteria that is the culprit, because many people, including me, have taken lots and lots of cyanescens without ever experiencing any of this. So it seems that some woodlovers sometimes do and sometimes don't contain something that's causing WLP. It also seems that the risk of getting it is the highest with azures.

To be honest, this is something that makes me seriously consider not to do cyanescens ever again. There are plenty of other shrooms out there, and there are alternatives like synthetic 4-AcO-DMT. And it realy sounds like there's some serious neurotoxin at work here.

Who knows what the long term consequences could be... an increased risk of dementia later in life? Or parkinsonism, multiple sclerosis, or depression? I wouldn't want to risk any of that.
 
padawan
#4 Posted : 11/20/2018 9:20:47 PM

forever learning


Posts: 102
Joined: 18-Aug-2018
Last visit: 14-May-2020
Hmmm.. that's concerning. Pan cyans are common in my area. Are you able to confirm they were pan cyans and what the specific substrate was? Was it treated pine chips perchance?
 
downwardsfromzero
#5 Posted : 11/20/2018 10:50:01 PM

Peeing into the abyss

Chemical expertSenior Member

Posts: 5601
Joined: 30-Aug-2008
Last visit: 09-May-2021
Location: square root of minus one
padawan wrote:
Hmmm.. that's concerning. Pan cyans are common in my area. Are you able to confirm they were pan cyans and what the specific substrate was? Was it treated pine chips perchance?

The species group in question is Psilocybe cyanescens, growing on wood chips. Pan cyans are Panaeolus cyanescens, which grow on herbivore dung. While these are both psilocybin active species, it's still important to distinguish between the two. That said, it's not difficult to imagine either of these species pinning one to the floor in an onslaught of psychedelic intensity, paralysis or not. I mean, once I found myself with my head jammed underneath the sofa, but that's not really the effect in question here Smile

For the record, I've never experienced the paralysis phenomenon from some pretty intense woodlover experiences (cyanescens and ovoideocystidiata) - but I was under the impression that the main culprit for this was Psilocybe azurescens anyhow.
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
padawan
#6 Posted : 11/21/2018 12:35:14 AM

forever learning


Posts: 102
Joined: 18-Aug-2018
Last visit: 14-May-2020
Ah, true - my bad! I might be confusing with gyms.. Anywho, I never experienced any physical paralysis effects either, but my main prep approach was a simple boiled tea with a squirt of lemon juice.
 
null24
#7 Posted : 11/21/2018 4:04:46 PM

not a derogatory robot


Posts: 3540
Joined: 21-Jul-2012
Last visit: 11-May-2021
I've made tea and did not experience it, which was both recommended as a way to mitigate the effect and soundly debunked on the one site i found any real info on the subject, and did not experience it.

There is a lot of cedar used as ground cover here, cedar has antifungal properties but i wonder if something changes as it weathers that causes this. I can't tell the difference between cedar and alder once it's old and grey. The effect seems to come from one out of 4 patches.

And yes, they are incredibly potent. A gram is a full on psychedelic experience with visuals.


I can post pics of the habitat if it helps.
Sine experientia nihil sufficienter sciri potest -Roger Bacon
*γνῶθι σεαυτόν*
decrimART
 
null24
#8 Posted : 12/14/2018 3:47:09 PM

not a derogatory robot


Posts: 3540
Joined: 21-Jul-2012
Last visit: 11-May-2021
Another possibility: could there be a link with nervous system or organic brain damage? A person who has particularly bad symptoms claimsto have had traumatic brain injuries, and i myself do as well. I'm wondering if those who experience WLP may have TBI in their background?
Sine experientia nihil sufficienter sciri potest -Roger Bacon
*γνῶθι σεαυτόν*
decrimART
 
DreadedShaman
#9 Posted : 12/21/2018 1:01:36 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 390
Joined: 24-Nov-2018
Last visit: 02-May-2021
So I believe I have experienced woodlovers paralysis. Although, after the experience some research led me to believe the culprit (s) to be baeocystin and/or nor-baeocystin in higher doses.
My experiences came from a batch of what was labeled PenisEvny#6.
The first experience, 3 grams we're consumed. After a pretty standard cubie come up, things changed, a body sensation set in, that I can only describe as a constant whole body orgasm, that left my friend and I writhing on the floor laughing quite hard.
The second experience we upped that dose, same batch, to 5 grams. This led to almost a meditative state in both of us, the sensation locking us in place, and a completely other dimensional experience in which I can only sum up as a trip to the spirit realm, allowing me to find family and friends that are long gone to this realm.
Once able to move again it was quite difficult for some time, I remember "climbing" through my bedroom trying to get to the bathroom.

I had never heard or read of this being an effect of a bacteria. But again I came to the conclusion that it was baeocystin in action.

Also a few theories about how baeocystin in high doses forces your soul out of your body.. stuff like that
 
Loveall
#10 Posted : 12/21/2018 7:05:56 AM

💖

Chemical expertSenior Member

Posts: 2163
Joined: 11-Mar-2017
Last visit: 11-May-2021
Location: 🌎
Paul Stamets has talked before about this, seems very real. Here is a recent web post that suggests something like baeo (as DreadedShaman suggested) or aeruginascin (pictured below) could be the culprits.

To me, aeruginascin is a likely candidate for wood lover's paralysis as a quaternary ammonium cation it has the potential to produce muscle paralysis:

From: https://en.m.wikipedia.o...omuscular-blocking_drug
Quote:
Quaternary ammonium muscle relaxants are quaternary ammonium salts used as drugs for muscle relaxation, most commonly in anesthesia. It is necessary to prevent spontaneous movement of muscle during surgical operations. Muscle relaxants inhibit neuron transmission to muscle by blocking the nicotinic acetylcholine receptor.


Also, aeruginascin (which has been discussed on the Nexus before) should not pass the blood brain barrier as endlessness said in 2015 (confirmed by this excerpt from the attached article):
Niels Jensen, Jochen Gartz, Hartmut Laatsch wrote:
The pharmacology and toxicology of aerugi-
nascin (4) has not yet been tested. 4 can be
assumed to undergo a rapid enzymatic
dephosphorylation in vivo in animals, but due
to the quaternary ammonium group it is
unlikely to pass the blood-brain barrier


Unfortunately quaternary amonium cations are pretty stable. I can't come up with an easy way to destroy it from an extract tea (anyone have any ideas). However, it is very polar, so maybe doing a couple of quick mushroom wash/squeezes with very cold water may remove most of it without pulling a lot of psilocybin. The cold-water pre-treatment may be worth a try if anyone is interested in taking woodlovers.
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
DreadedShaman
#11 Posted : 12/21/2018 11:23:30 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 390
Joined: 24-Nov-2018
Last visit: 02-May-2021
This is Interesting.. had not come across aeruginascin before. Hmm.


Quote:

Also, aeruginascin (which has been discussed on the Nexus before) should not pass the blood brain barrier as endlessness said in 2015 (confirmed by this excerpt from the attached article):


Although, through reading reports and reflecting on my own still leads sme back to baeocyatin. There is definitely a change in pyschoactivity, that has a slower onset than psilo. Maybe a combo effect from aerugin/baeo?

But I've not had an experiences like this since that batch of mushrooms. I actually wouldn't have called it unenjoyable... Call me wierd but after the first experience with it I was very willing to up my dose to see what else it would do.

 
Jagube
#12 Posted : 8/11/2020 7:16:12 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 1000
Joined: 18-Feb-2017
Last visit: 11-May-2021
Apparently P. semilanceata also contains baeocystin (maximum levels reported as high as those in P. azurescens) and I'm not aware of reports of WLP, so it's probably not that, which leaves aeruginascin as the most likely candidate?

According to https://www.psilopedia.ca :


Has anyone tried P. azurescens with ginger?
 
null24
#13 Posted : 8/12/2020 6:30:09 AM

not a derogatory robot


Posts: 3540
Joined: 21-Jul-2012
Last visit: 11-May-2021
Funny this popped back up. Here's an(other) article that I ran into recently, this one on aeruginascin (new to me) as a candidate for being the culprit:wood-lover-paralysis-from-magic-mushrooms-the-aeruginascin-hypothesis/
Quote:
psychedelicreview.com/:
Aeruginascin is a compound present in several species of magic mushrooms.1 The chemical structure of aeruginascin is similar to psilocybin, the primary psychedelic prodrug in magic mushrooms. Aeruginascin has three methyl groups on the ethanolamine moiety while psilocybin has two (Figure 1). The additional methyl group creates a positively charged trimethylammonium group on aeruginascin compared to a dimethylamine group on psilocybin. Both of these compounds are structural analogs of the neurotransmitter serotonin (Figure 2).

The same structural difference exists between the toad venoms bufotenin and bufotenidine (also known as 5-HTQ) (Figure 3) which are also structural analogs of aeruginascin, psilocybin, and serotonin. Notice that bufotenin and bufotenidine differ by only a single methyl group, just like aeruginascin differs from psilocybin. Bufotenin is a psychoactive compound. However, bufotenidine with its one additional methyl group is known to cause paralysis.2 The difference in these effects based on the presence or absence of a third methyl group can be extrapolated to explain how aeruginascin could cause Wood Lover Paralysis.

Alot of that means more to some of you than it does to me, but it is interesting.
Sine experientia nihil sufficienter sciri potest -Roger Bacon
*γνῶθι σεαυτόν*
decrimART
 
downwardsfromzero
#14 Posted : 8/13/2020 12:14:44 PM

Peeing into the abyss

Chemical expertSenior Member

Posts: 5601
Joined: 30-Aug-2008
Last visit: 09-May-2021
Location: square root of minus one
The information that has come up suggests the conundrum is likely to be resolved by a new round of analysis of psilocybin-bearing mushrooms for their aeruginascin content. The similarity between aeruginascin and bufotenidine is too close to be ignored. Somewhere buried deep in my hand-written notes I have already observed how aeruginascin looked like it might have nicotinic/muscarinic cholinergic activity, which would be a possible candidate mechanism for paralysis.

Incidentally, several quaternary ammonium compounds such as candicine have been found in cacti and candicine has been shown to cause paralysis in frogs. So, bufotenidine = quaternary arylethylammonium compound = paralysis; candicine = quaternary arylethylammonium compound = paralysis; aeruginascin = quaternary arylethylammonium compound = found in mushrooms known to cause paralysis???

https://psilocybintechno...ypothesis-aeruginascin/
Quote:
Aeruginascin is known to occur in multiple species of magic mushrooms. See Zhuk, O. et al. Toxins, 2015 Apr; 7(4): 1018–1029.


Quote:
[The research carried out on the determination of chemical content of psychedelic mushroom species such as Galerina, Gymnopilus, Inocybe, Panaeolus, Pholiotina and Psilocybe showed that they mainly contained psilocybin and its dephosphorylated metabolite—psilocin—as well as the minor amounts of other indoleamine derivatives such as baeocystin, norbaeocystin and aeruginascin, may also have occurred
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
downwardsfromzero
#15 Posted : 8/13/2020 12:32:40 PM

Peeing into the abyss

Chemical expertSenior Member

Posts: 5601
Joined: 30-Aug-2008
Last visit: 09-May-2021
Location: square root of minus one
Are there any reports of paralysis resulting from ingestion of Inocybe aeruginascens, btw? It's pretty unusual to hear of anyone even having tried this species.
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Loveall
#16 Posted : 8/13/2020 1:58:05 PM

💖

Chemical expertSenior Member

Posts: 2163
Joined: 11-Mar-2017
Last visit: 11-May-2021
Location: 🌎
I believe it has been mentioned before, but aeruginascin should have a strong affinity to cation resin water filters. Some desirable actives may also be removed, but maybe worth a try to filter a wood lover's mushroom tea this way if one is having issues with this type of paralysis (no lemon or acid added before filtering to avoid strong + charges on the actives).
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
doubledog
#17 Posted : 8/13/2020 3:00:26 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 341
Joined: 02-Dec-2017
Last visit: 11-May-2021
Location: right side of the river
I have experienced something similar with fresh woodlovers from Central Europe - not sure about proper names, most likely it was bohemica or arcana.

Feelings of muscle weakness, unability to move, I would even describe it as slight anesthesia, felt like my body is from some jelly Smile

I do not mind the effect, it's quite pleasant once you are accepting it, it allows one to go deeper in the visions.

Never had it with other kind of shrooms.
 
Jagube
#18 Posted : 8/17/2020 10:27:36 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 1000
Joined: 18-Feb-2017
Last visit: 11-May-2021
Loveall wrote:
I believe it has been mentioned before, but aeruginascin should have a strong affinity to cation resin water filters.

Thanks, I've found your posts. You also suggested quick cold water washes: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...amp;m=943904#post943904

Presumably a simple methanol extraction like this one wouldn't remove the aeruginascin?
Is aeruginascin more soluble in ethanol than psilocybin, which is poorly soluble?

Another thing, as a 5-HT3 agonist, aeruginascin should cause nausea. Has anyone who has experienced WLP also found it to co-occur with more nausea than usual?
 
Loveall
#19 Posted : 8/18/2020 2:40:54 AM

💖

Chemical expertSenior Member

Posts: 2163
Joined: 11-Mar-2017
Last visit: 11-May-2021
Location: 🌎
Jagube wrote:
Loveall wrote:
I believe it has been mentioned before, but aeruginascin should have a strong affinity to cation resin water filters.

Thanks, I've found your posts. You also suggested quick cold water washes: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...amp;m=943904#post943904

Presumably a simple methanol extraction like this one wouldn't remove the aeruginascin?
Is aeruginascin more soluble in ethanol than psilocybin, which is poorly soluble?

Another thing, as a 5-HT3 agonist, aeruginascin should cause nausea. Has anyone who has experienced WLP also found it to co-occur with more nausea than usual?


I don't know. I would guess aeruginascin would be soluble in methanol. Ethanol extract may reduce aeruginascin content. These are just guesses, one would have to try and see what happens. I like the simple idea of ethanol extract effects vs
eating or making a tea. Are there any paralysis reports from ethanol woodlovers extracts?
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
Jozeh
#20 Posted : 8/18/2020 11:27:08 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 76
Joined: 14-Oct-2017
Last visit: 10-May-2021
Glad we got to the aeruginascin hypothesis, interesting stuff.

Maybe a test for the brave could be a cold water lemon tek to dephosphorylate aeruginascin to 4-ho-tmt. A la psilocybin to psilocin.

https://psychedelicrevie...rotonin-5-ht2a-receptor/
 
12NEXT
 
Users browsing this forum
Guest

DMT-Nexus theme created by The Traveler
This page was generated in 0.084 seconds.