I just read an article from sciencedaily.com about mdma creating sleep apnea supposedly found out by John Hopkins scientists.

Article headline "Ecstasy Use May Lead to Sleep Apnea: Illegal 'Club Drug' Poisons Neurons Involved in Control of Breathing During Sleep"

Can't really find any longer reports explaining this in detail and I can't find anything on the John Hopkins webpage either

Any thoughts?

http://www.sciencedaily....2009/12/091202162332.htm

Sleep apnea wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_apnea

Interesting...thanks for sharing.

Well several people that I know who abused MDMA have some problems that they didn't have before using it. I think it's likely to cause permanent brain damage. I've seen many reports showing this is highly likely. People should stay away from MDMA.

69Ron I couldn't agree more on the fact that MDMA abuse/misuse can cause serious problems.

Though I think if it's used maybe once a year or less it probably isn't terribly bad for most people. It does have theraputic value. I however abstain from all Phenylthelamines(s.p.) aside from Mescaline.

is MDMA really a phen or is it more of an amphetamine?..I kinda view it as a more amphetamine like substance.. I mean the MA part is meth-amphetamine..there is no actaul amphetamine is mescaline is there?

I have heard Mckenna also refer to mescaline as an amphetamine..but isn't mescaline just a phenethylamine?..can you really call mescaline an amphetamine?

There is no actual amphetamine structure in mescaline, only a partial one, so it's not actually an amphetamine. MDMA actually has a complete amphetamine structure in it. So there IS a difference and it might be very significant when it comes to causing brain damage.

[EDIT: pictures removed from this post and put down below]

How about these images:

I think those that pictures really make it very clear that mescaline is NOT an amphetamine. Anyone calling it one is mistaken. It contains no amphetamine at all. It is however a phenethylamine.

I added LSA and LSD to the comparison images above. As you can see LSA and LSD are both phenethylamines as well as tryptamines, if you look closely. That's why the effects of LSD are often said to be similar to mescaline. They both are phenethylamines although LSD if often called a tryptamine, SWIM finds the effects of LSD far more like mescaline than any other tryptamine. Mescaline is not a tryptamine at all though.

[EDIT: Below you can see how LSD is both a tryptamine (shown in green) and a phenethylamine (shown is red). Pretty cool I think.]

I have not heard of the point the OP made, but I can vouch for it doing you no good if used too frequently. My personal opinion from experience is that if you use pure mdma (ie not pills) infrequently and look after your body and mind apart from that, it would be very rare to have any problems. There have been times where friends have abused this drug and it can create noticeable effects on mood, physical health and mental health. I would put at least part of this down to the general lifestyle that goes hand in hand with this type of behaviour though.

I certainly don't regret using it, but would advise caution. I have to say I disagree that using it is "highly likely" to cause brain damage, as I and all my friends who have taken it are in very good health so far as I know. That said it should be treated with respect and using it regularly is probably asking for trouble.

Out of interest 69ron, what symptoms have your friends shown?

69Ron: Great illustration of the pharmacore there!

I was surprised the first time someone showed me that LSD was actually a phenethylamine. I had always been incorrectly told it was a tryptamine and not a phenethylamine. Once you see it with your own eyes, it’s pretty obvious that it’s both. That helps explain why people often find mescaline and LSD are more like each other than LSD is like psilocybin. That phenethylamine element of LSD makes it sort of hybrid psychedelic.



Three of them now suffer from depression. One is now suicidal. All three suffer from HPPD-like symptoms. There are other things about them that are different and it’s hard to pinpoint. All three used MDMA excessively for many years. Of course it was street MDMA so it likely contained a lot of other crap but for the most part I believe most of the damage was caused by MDMA. The MDMA users seem to have some damage similar to speed users but the HPPD like symptoms seem to be specific to the MDMA users.

SWIM has never abused MDMA or any other amphetamine. Occasionally he’s had some amphetamine-like hallucinogens that were passed off as LSD though. SWIM has used LSD, mushrooms, and many other tryptamine psychedelics hundreds of times and has no such symptoms. I believe that the amphetamine class of psychedelics are the cause of most of these disorders.

Not even HPPD? I thought all tryptamine use lead to eventual HPPD (trails on lights etc)
Although SWIM finds it quite pleasant, and can't really imagine how it was before.

- doesn't everyone get coloured blobs when looking at bright lights?

SWIM's visual performance has never changed. SWIM has excellent eyesight and never experienced any sorts of visual aftereffects from any thing he's ever used. But again, SWIM doesn't use psychedelic amphetamines.

SWIM will not use speed of any kind, heroin, cocaine, marijuana, alcohol, PCP, ketamine, and many others. The drugs SWIM has used massively include coffee, LSD, psilocybin, and to a lesser degree bufotenine. The drugs he uses even less frequently are DMT, mescaline, and the harmalas. Also a few herbs here and there (kava, passionflower, etc.).

It’s possible some people can get HPPD from using LSD or mushrooms, but most of the people I’ve met who have it have used MDMA at one point or another.

If I may be picky once again in this HPPD subject:

Its a disservice if you call it HPPD and find it pleasant!! hppD, D from Disorder, Disorder being only possible when one is unhappy or when it makes one's life worse.. If you find it pleasant, why label yourself according to some or other medical criteria, cant you just be YOU ?

Although it is definately not what I would call a 'disorder'
- but it wasn't like that to begin with.

69Ron: I first noticed it after taking mushrooms, aged 15 - 16. As
I tripped again and again, the trails which everyone gets (also called
tracers) while tripping, just never disappeared.

you're right, endlessness; it doesn't bother me. Its definately not a
problem. however, sometimes its slightly annoying when i've been
reading loads of white-on-black text, and then I need to send a message
on my phone and I can't see it for about 5 seconds.

im sure thats pretty normal though.

Chances are alot of the people tested had never actually taken MDMA Don't know about where you live, but in the UK it's almost impossible to get real MDMA. I think i've had it on 3 different occasions in my entire life (I'm only 20 so wasn't around for the early days ) but i know for sure that for the last year every "ecstasy pill" i have ever taken has had NO MDMA in at all.

I know what you mean Astralking, quality of pills in the UK is extremely variable, and the "early days" do have the reputation of having better quality pills. I started taking them in '98, so not at the beginning. It is difficult to gauge quality over time without a proper testing kit though, as there is a definate "honeymoon" period with mdma.

I have never been anywhere where it is easier to find pills than in the UK, even now. In a lot of countries they are pretty hard to come by. Good pills seem less common to me, but then I rarely look for them these days.

In my experience I have had some gloomy comedowns after pills, probably not helped by impurities. But on decent mdma it is very smooth, and as long as I get some rest and eat well (not always easy! :shock, I feel pretty much fine afterwards. You can get excellent mdma here, but at a price!

69ron: sorry to hear about your friends, that sounds like bad news maybe my friends and I just got lucky. The depression I guess I can imagine happening, but the HPPD I have not heard any anecdotal evidence of, not to say it doesn't happen though. I definately think mdma should be used with caution and restraint.

SWIM's friend has done everything pretty much, and sometimes very hard in combinations and has noticed changes in all aspects of personality, they're all variations of a baseline, it seems clear to me that damage is very possible, but honestly I've had more detremental effects on the brain from everyday events in life..... the brain changes via experience and I think that's probably at the heart of a lot of these things, swim's friend knows hundreds of hard core mdma users and the thing you notice most is that they've lost their ability to enjoy things normally because they've spent too much time enjoying things at a different level... this has been discussed. I think moderation, modulation, rest and responsbility is the key... like I accept if something is gonna damage me that I at least let myself heal, I trust my body in this respect, if I feel awful, I'm finished.

I could once feel how the mdma was severely messing my brain up so after that experience I didn't use much of it and soon quit. But pure mdma once in a while probably has more good effects than bad. But I don't like it. And I've always felt the effects were fake. Very unreal. I don't like chemicals that force me into a good mood 'cause they always have bad side effects.