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Safety warning if adding 5-substituted tryptamines to the mushroom substrate Options
 
Loveall
#1 Posted : 9/2/2018 2:07:07 AM

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Dear friends,

Some 4,5 doubly substituted tryptamines can be toxic. See the info in the attachment below.

This means that in general, care should be taken when adding 5-substituted tryptamines such as 5-HTP, bufotenine, 5-MEO-DMT, and melatonin to a mushroom substrate. This is because if the mushrooms succeed in modifying the 4-position (like they naturally do when producing psiloc(yb)in) they could produce a 4,5 substituted tryptamine.

While the possible products won't be as toxic as 5,7-Dihydroxytryptamine, and the mushroom may not succeed in modifying the 4-position if the 5-position is occupied (does anyone know?), the potential for toxicity does exist until more information is presented.

If someone has more information on the possible toxicity and/or the ability of the mushroom to substitute the 4-position when the 5-position is already substituted please chime in. I for one, am not going to do any bioassays of fruits from substrates with 5-substituted tryptamines until someone can clarify the situation further.

So for now, I'm keeping the ground yopo seeds and 5-HTP away from the monotub Stop. Thank you.

Loveall attached the following image(s):
tox.jpg (180kb) downloaded 163 time(s).
β€œ... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 

with a seemingly autonomous entity after taking DMT?
 
Swayambhu
#2 Posted : 11/7/2018 12:36:33 PM

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Shit.
My outdoor cyanescens bed has just started fruiting for the first time.
About six months ago I scattered some out-of-date chacruna leaves over the top of it, just as a means of getting rid of them and returning their power to the system.
Should I worry? It was just a couple of loose handfuls over maybe a meter square.
I've not eaten any yet. I'm bummed, but also I don't want to fuck up my neurons.
Please tell me everything will be okay?!?
Sad
 
Loveall
#3 Posted : 11/7/2018 1:42:26 PM

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That should be perfectly fine. The only potential issue I'm bringing up is feeding mushrooms fresh relatively strong (in the order of .01M) 5-OH substituted triptamines (bufotenine/yopo and 5-HTP).

Again, this issue is just a potential warning. The mushroom would need to be able to add it's 4-OH group with the 5-OH group already present, and we don't know yet if it is even possible, only that it could happen. Even if it happened the 4,5-OH substituted toxicity is lower than other double substituted -OH triptamines. One way only get a bad head ache, I don't really know.

Until we know more I would not add yopo seeds or 5-HTP supplements in mushroom grows. That's all I wanted to bring up since there has been some activity around general mushroom substituted triptamine doping (mexamine, melatonin, triptamine, etc).

β€œ... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
Swayambhu
#4 Posted : 11/7/2018 4:07:33 PM

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Thank you, I’ll proceed with great caution.
 
downwardsfromzero
#5 Posted : 11/7/2018 7:37:09 PM

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Swayambhu wrote:
Thank you, I’ll proceed with great caution.

The caution due with P. cyanescens is, even in your case, down to their fairly hefty potency, especially when fresh (psilocin).

They also happen to taste very good in a miso soup, which covers up their yeasty odour nicely. The wisdom of making potent psychoactive soup more than barely palatable is, of course, highly questionable Very happy

At least you have no grounds for concern about polyhydroxylated tryptamines (in my non-expert opinion).
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

β€œTo be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality."
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
 
Swayambhu
#6 Posted : 11/7/2018 10:37:13 PM

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downwardsfromzero wrote:

The caution due with P. cyanescens is, even in your case, down to their fairly hefty potency, especially when fresh (psilocin).


This too.
 
Swayambhu
#7 Posted : 11/7/2018 10:41:29 PM

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downwardsfromzero wrote:
The wisdom of making potent psychoactive soup more than barely palatable is, of course, highly questionable Very happy



My mushroom experience to date is exclusively with semilanceata, which I would honestly eat just for the (delicious, salty, earthy, umami) taste.
 
Quetzal7
#8 Posted : 11/8/2018 11:43:10 AM

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Thanks for the info !
What about tryptamine ? Or directly put some MHRB powder ?
this tickle my curiosity; i got 10 shroomery tabs open but it's quite confusing info
Any reliable and replicated info to provide for us ? thanks
 
Loveall
#9 Posted : 11/9/2018 12:39:02 AM

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Quetzal7 wrote:
Thanks for the info !
What about tryptamine ? Or directly put some MHRB powder ?
this tickle my curiosity; i got 10 shroomery tabs open but it's quite confusing info
Any reliable and replicated info to provide for us ? thanks


Tryptamine is converted by the mushrooms as shown in the literature and our own Benzyme. Usually the order of 10mM of tryptamine is added (roughly a couple grams per liter of water). MHRB should provide something, buy the ammount of DMT is small (not worth it I think). These are of course perfectly safe as there is no change of double -OH substitutions.

Tryptophan does not seem to be utilized by the mushrooms (maybe because the amine is protected by a carboxylic group). The confusing part about the shroomery is that some experienced growers have verified this (which is good work), but the problem is that some subsequently claim that nothing will boost alkaloid content based on this and other unrelated tests (an extrapolation which is false).

Note that melatonin conversion may suffer from the same issue if the acetyl group protects the amine from the mushroom, that is an experiment we are working on now.

There are other examples of mushrooms going to work and transforming compounds. This thread has more info and research woth mushrooms changing molecules (including a PhD thesis with several examples in post #12).

It's fascinating stuff. Tryptophan/Melatonin (from bulk supplements) to tryptamine/mexamine is within reach of the kitchen alchemist (I think). This exposes the amine so the mushrooms can get to it. The truly part of the laboratory synthesis that is hard for a kitchen worker is the methylation of this amine, but thankfully the mushrooms should take care of that.




β€œ... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
 
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