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Quest for most potent cactus - from seeds with help of pereskiopsis grafting Options
 
Spiralout
#41 Posted : 10/3/2018 3:11:25 PM

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Hey,

Yeah it is very variable as far as I can tell ...

Those factors inyan mentions definitely play a role ..

From what I've seen though, and again I don't have as much experience as inyan , but to me it has been more or less random which ones start growing first and which ones grow faster ...

My gut is telling me that the actual strength and size of the connection between the 2 vascular systems plays a major role ... my gut also says that the genetics of each individual scion play a role ..

I have a handful of grafts of the same exact seeds (not hybrids either as far as I know ) that i did recently where the fastest pushing scion seems to be on the shortest stock with the least leaves ... if not the fastest pushing its a close second . One of the other fastest ones IS on the tallest stock with the most leaves though ...

Pete you answered my question. .. was just trying to get an idea of what exactly you had setup for lights ... I can see the multi levels ... Very nice.

On average i see growth within 5-20 days after the initial grafting ceremony .. 7-10 days on average .. I have been letting up on the watering until I have at least seen some growth ... the reason for this being that i have had water pool up inside the parafilm when I water which has led to infection etc.. after i notice it has been grafted i give it a good bit of water and some nutrie ts if i think of it .
 

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pete666
#42 Posted : 10/3/2018 4:35:44 PM

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Thanks for your input guys. Very appreciated.
I just came home and ...
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Acceptance of the fact that our reality is not real doesn't in fact mean it is not real. It just leads to better understanding what real means.
 
pete666
#43 Posted : 10/3/2018 4:44:41 PM

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So needless to say, I am glad I see this. I will remove the peres offshoots and apply another layer over, to keep it humid and avoid problems with the vascular bundle that might occur with older rootstock.

Spiralout wrote:
I have been letting up on the watering until I have at least seen some growth ... the reason for this being that i have had water pool up inside the parafilm when I water which has led to infection etc.. after i notice it has been grafted i give it a good bit of water and some nutrie ts if i think of it .


Have you used new razorblade for each grafting, disinfected with IPA for every cut? Have you avoided any touching of the cut rootstock?
Acceptance of the fact that our reality is not real doesn't in fact mean it is not real. It just leads to better understanding what real means.
 
Wakinyan
#44 Posted : 10/3/2018 7:51:25 PM

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pete666 wrote:
So needless to say, I am glad I see this. I will remove the peres offshoots and apply another layer over, to keep it humid and avoid problems with the vascular bundle that might occur with older rootstock.

Spiralout wrote:
I have been letting up on the watering until I have at least seen some growth ... the reason for this being that i have had water pool up inside the parafilm when I water which has led to infection etc.. after i notice it has been grafted i give it a good bit of water and some nutrie ts if i think of it .


Have you used new razorblade for each grafting, disinfected with IPA for every cut? Have you avoided any touching of the cut rootstock?


Pete666 Be careful when you apply another layer to your grafted scion. You can pull the scion free if it has taken.

Spiralout... Your advise can't hurt and it could even help.

I have had water condense in the parafilm as well. I have also had some mostly harmless contamination and growth result when that was the case. One thing is for certain, don't use a blade for more than 1 day and definitely don't use a blade with any spot of rust on it. The more similar in size the seedling is to the cut surface area of the stock the less problems I have noted.

I suspect that a scion that is too loosely attached via parafilm may also float up and away from the surface of the stock causing some grafts to fail. I don't know that for a fact, but I do suspect that might be the case sometimes. Of course, it could be that the water pressure is sometimes strong enough to push the scion free if the parafilm is stretched too thin.

I like to keep a page with what I do and when I do things when I run into trouble. It may be that I have inadvertently changed a step I thought was not important or the weather or time of day the graft was done may be important overlooked factors.

For me for instance, I love to graft all hours of the day, but I find my best grafts are done and the best results are seen when I graft in the morning hours just after the sun has risen up to around 1500 hours. After that, pressure inside the vascular bundle generally increases and I get more water pushing to the top that I then have to dry to get good grafts, but by drying them... I may also introduce contaminants...etc.
When I graft you graft we graft
 
pete666
#45 Posted : 10/4/2018 6:38:59 AM

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Wakinyan wrote:

Be careful when you apply another layer to your grafted scion. You can pull the scion free if it has taken.

OK, I won't do it yet. If there were any problems with the rootstock, I might try it. Another posibility is a small zip-bag for keeping the moisture, which looks safer.

Wakinyan wrote:

For me for instance, I love to graft all hours of the day, but I find my best grafts are done and the best results are seen when I graft in the morning hours just after the sun has risen up to around 1500 hours. After that, pressure inside the vascular bundle generally increases and I get more water pushing to the top that I then have to dry to get good grafts, but by drying them... I may also introduce contaminants...etc.

I didn't know you have to dry the rootstock. Why do you mind the moisture? Isn't the parafilm pressure enough to overcome it? I haven't noticed any excessive moisture, but it may be due to the age of my pereskiopsis.

Acceptance of the fact that our reality is not real doesn't in fact mean it is not real. It just leads to better understanding what real means.
 
Wakinyan
#46 Posted : 10/4/2018 12:19:36 PM

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The problem with excessive moisture pumping through to the top of the stock seems to occur more often with grafts that are done at night or with grafts in which the scion is significantly smaller than the diameter of the stock on which they are placed.

I rarely get complications from the moisture regardless.

I've resorted to such tricks as simply dabbing the moisture off with a clean cloth before placing my scion for instance to help with the water pushing up is excessively strong. Again, this seems to be worst when grafting at night.

A grafting diary where one rights the time one grafts 0800 or 1600 for example. The weather conditions, whether the grafts were left outside or brought indoors, if the soil was dry or wet when one grafted, can help iron out some deficiencies that may be unique to your particular situation if your seriously into finding out what works for you and what doesn't.

I'm a big believer that while memory is great, it isn't the greatest when your making multiple grafts and then looking at the results a few days later. The more detailed those notes are the more you may find that there is indeed a reason or at least a reasonable suspicion for why a graft has failed.

For me, grafting is as much an art as it is a science. I've just ordered a new pair of glasses myself so I can actually see what I'm doing which I've heard is a big plus when it comes to grafting.
When I graft you graft we graft
 
pete666
#47 Posted : 10/4/2018 1:53:01 PM

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Yes, I understand the importance of taking notes and I agree. Especially if the conditions between grafting sessions vary a lot. For me it is a bit easier, as my conditions are quite unified, because it is indoors, almost always at the same time and the technique is not changing much between grafting sessions. Anyway, if the change in the technique would be significant, I would log it. I am taking notes of sowings, graftings and even each specimen has a number with associated information about sowing, grafting, dates of sowing, grafting and other information.

I have similar log for watering, feeding, with TDS of soil, water, used fertilizer. Very useful in case of any problems.

And the importance of proper vision...yes, my experience is the same. I am using as much light I have in the room, with additional head lamp. When parafilm is attached, it always moves or leans the scion and I would say having it straigt and properly positioned is crucial. This can be hardly achieved without proper information of the actual position of scion. I would love to graft outdoors with enough sunshine because I feel the vision would be much better than with artificial light.

Acceptance of the fact that our reality is not real doesn't in fact mean it is not real. It just leads to better understanding what real means.
 
Spiralout
#48 Posted : 10/4/2018 4:14:20 PM

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I am very poor so using a new razorblade for ever graft is not possible (I've also more or less stopped myold habit of, erm, "working" for all dept. Stores... which would allow me to , erm , get all my razorblade etc "on sale"Pleased ...

I use one razor blade for all my grafting for at least about 10 grafts maybe .. and i sterilize it with ipa and a paper towel between each cut . I should probably go big moneygangsta though and get the NINTEY percent ipa instead of my peon grade 50 percent. I also have my scions soaking h202 while grafting ... ussually I let them soak a few hours first too ...My infection rates have been on a downward slope since I started learning ...

Their reason I don't water is because I find the pereskiopsis takes up the water so fast when you DO water ... so right when I see some growth , or at least indication the graft has probably taken , I will water .. again thouh this is nowhere near exact science ..

Inyan... I have accidentally done this on now few grafts while not cutting the stock as straight as I should... I ended up only cutting off the top of a patch of the stock .. so I essentially had only one area of the vascular ring to graft too... of course this is only possible with stock that has already been calloused over ... but it seemed to make sense to just leave the majority of the top calloused over with just a patch to graft to... dunno if i explained that well..
 
pete666
#49 Posted : 10/4/2018 5:24:59 PM

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Spiralout wrote:
I am very poor so using a new razorblade for ever graft is not possible

Sorry for my poor English, I meant new blade for grafting session, not every graft.

Spiralout wrote:
I use one razor blade for all my grafting for at least about 10 grafts maybe .. and i sterilize it with ipa and a paper towel between each cut . I should probably go big moneygangsta though and get the NINTEY percent ipa instead of my peon grade 50 percent. I also have my scions soaking h202 while grafting ... ussually I let them soak a few hours first too ...My infection rates have been on a downward slope since I started learning ...

Sounds good to me, I would say 50% alcohol is sufficient, no need for higher concentration, although I use it.

So what was the rate of infection you got? How did it look like?

Acceptance of the fact that our reality is not real doesn't in fact mean it is not real. It just leads to better understanding what real means.
 
Spiralout
#50 Posted : 10/5/2018 12:45:15 AM

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It was ussually just rusty brown colored infection but sometimes black... The rusty brown /red colored infection tends to be more benign, it seems, and sometimes the scion can survive through it... If that happens though I tend to try to get the parafilm off of it, or at least cut a hole in it, so it can get some air; whatever I can do without disturbing the scion.. I decide whether or not to do this depending on how bad the infection looks and its proximity to the sign... It also seems there is less chance of infection when it's in a cool area, so I've been putting most of my grafts in a cool area in the basement for the first few days.. Until it looks like the stock has more or less calloused over and the risk of infection is more or less gone.. You can see through the parafilm and see how much it has healed if the parafilm is thin enough...

Once it has taken and started growing I pretty much consider the scion to be sturdy... IN a few weeks it will be big enough to withstand a good amount of stress..
 
pete666
#51 Posted : 10/13/2018 9:36:58 AM

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I am a bit doubtful about the state of my first grafts. They don't seem to be dead to me, but they don't grow as others do. What do you think, is it worth leaving them there or should I graft new seedlings to this stock?

They are 16 days from grafting, the last picture is the fastest one, 10 days old...
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Acceptance of the fact that our reality is not real doesn't in fact mean it is not real. It just leads to better understanding what real means.
 
pete666
#52 Posted : 10/14/2018 9:12:05 PM

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I am not sure how to recognize the graft is lost. Those grafts are still in the same state for many days. I am sure they had grown a bit but then the growth stopped. Any ideas whether and how long to wait?
Acceptance of the fact that our reality is not real doesn't in fact mean it is not real. It just leads to better understanding what real means.
 
Spiralout
#53 Posted : 10/15/2018 3:09:14 AM

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They are fine... Some grow faster than others.... Not sure why this is as there are many variables...

They tend to have a lull at first before they start growing... Due to not being attatched to the stock yet and also from stress... Then you will often see a growth spurt... Then another lull is common...

If they aren't shriveling up and dying then leave em... at least wait a month I would say... but they should really either grow or shrivel up and die ... If they aren't doing anything they should soon...

You should definitely cut back or simply scratch off with your finger those side growths the pereskiopsis are throwing off... That will increase your growth rate exponentially .

Looking very very good Thumbs up
 
pete666
#54 Posted : 10/15/2018 6:41:45 AM

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Thanks Spiralout. I like to hear that, because only about 50% of grafts are growing and the rest is in this state. I was hoping for better take-rate, so hopefully it will increase in next days or weeks. I will give it some time and regraft if nothing changes.

Anyway, because I have half of trays grafted, I decided to try wakynians suggestion and cut 4 trays with higher (about 30cm) peres to about 6cm. I left there only 3-4 areoles. Now I am planning to wait for fresh offshoot and use this as a rootstock. I am quite curious whether the results will differ and how much. It is going to be just 80 grafts, but it should give some picture.

I have 240 containers at the moment and it is a lot of work to cut all the offshoots growing from peres. I am doing it every second day but as you can see, even after one day it grows a lot. But I am removing all I can identify!
Acceptance of the fact that our reality is not real doesn't in fact mean it is not real. It just leads to better understanding what real means.
 
Spiralout
#55 Posted : 10/15/2018 2:59:41 PM

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No worries.. Couple things I want to say in reply..

Even if a graft has physically attached itself it may still not be grafted. This may be the case with a few of your grafts but I doubt its the case with many of them.. If the vascular rings don't make a connection then even though it will be stuck to the stock it will end up shriveling up and dying... With that being said, if you have seen any growth whasoever then obviously you have made a connection and as long as you don't knock into them they will grow.. I have had grafts that were very slow going at first and then all of sudden picked up speed and grew a hell of a lot faster than some of the other ones that I was more impressed with at first... So give it time.


I think inyans suggestion was just more if you weren't having much success ... If you use newer growth the stock is fresher and more likely to make a connection.. Older "woody" stock is a bit harder to make a connection and in that case sometimes you'll want to wait and have the peres throw off a shoot, simply so you have the ability to graft. If it doesn't seem like an OBVIOUS problem though then it probably isn't a problem... When stock is old and woody it is very very obvious; the vascular ring will be coming out of the cactus or will be difficult to cut..

There's no real problem with doing that though other than the extra time it will take... Also, if you're cutting off a bunch of your pereskiopsis, then your going to be using less biomass to graft to... So your scion is going to grow a bit slower...
So that's something to think about too..

The one interesting thing would be to see if the connections you make are that much better with really fresh stock but honestly there really isn't anyway to tell... I hope you save the tops that you are cutting off and either re root them and grow them or send them to me Pleased

I would spend my time getting rid of those off shoots more than anything... Once you've got rid of them for a few weeks ,and the scion has grown a bit, they probably won't put off any offshoots at all... Once the scion gets bigger it will be focusing all its energy on that.. and will forget about making offshoots.. So better to get rid of em now while there small, to speed up your initial growth, and while they're still manageable .
 
pete666
#56 Posted : 10/15/2018 5:28:07 PM

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Thanks Spiralout for this entry, it is just saying loud what I was assuming.

Spiralout wrote:

The one interesting thing would be to see if the connections you make are that much better with really fresh stock but honestly there really isn't anyway to tell... I hope you save the tops that you are cutting off and either re root them and grow them or send them to me Pleased


Unfortunatelly no, they have been thrown into the dustbin. Too late Sad

Spiralout wrote:
I would spend my time getting rid of those off shoots more than anything... Once you've got rid of them for a few weeks ,and the scion has grown a bit, they probably won't put off any offshoots at all... Once the scion gets bigger it will be focusing all its energy on that.. and will forget about making offshoots.. So better to get rid of em now while there small, to speed up your initial growth, and while they're still manageable .


Yes, I understand and do agree. It is just a lot of work and doing it everyday is simply impossible for me. I only hope this will really cease with time, because doing it every day or two for half year or longer is unimaginable.
Acceptance of the fact that our reality is not real doesn't in fact mean it is not real. It just leads to better understanding what real means.
 
Spiralout
#57 Posted : 10/15/2018 5:38:26 PM

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You threw them away?

Did the trash man come yet? Go in there and grab them things and rinse em off! You can never have enough. And with someone like you that has as much lights set up.. Definitely going to want to expand at some point.. Whenever you take a cutting of pereskiopsis ; root it. Whenever I cut to graft I try to cut off atleast a couple inches from the top so I can root that sucker and get it growing.. You can even root tiny pieces but you really want at least a couple inches if possible.


If you get rid of the shoots now, they will stop trying to grow them out sooner than later. Honestly after about a month they shouldnt be trying to throw them out anymore. The scion will be big enough by that point that the pereskiopsis will be focusing all its energy on it rather than trying to pup out. Right now its growing the scion but has extra energy and energy is never wasted in nature.

So, if you get rid of them now your scion will grow faster now... Which means the peres will stop putting out off shoots sooner.. Plus, it will be a hell of alot easier to just scratch them off now with your fingernail rather than having to cut off bigger pieces later.. If you don't get rid of them they will continue to grow and your scion will get way less energy, the pereskiopsis off shoots will become unruly, and some scions may even die I'm guessing or at the very least not grow at all.. You shouldn't have to worry about them much after a month or so though...


INstead of doing more grafts I would really work on getting rid of those off shoots. You'll thank yourself later.

 
pete666
#58 Posted : 10/15/2018 6:24:23 PM

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I have space just for 480 containers bellow the lights and any spare peres would have to survive the winter without enough light. I don't have a greenhouse so for me it is about buying some peres online in early spring and multiply it through the summer so I can start grafting in September/October. Anyway it is growing really fast under ideal conditions so it should not be problem to make 500 rootstocks from few tens of cuttings in the spring.

Ok my friend, I go to cut the offshoots now!
Acceptance of the fact that our reality is not real doesn't in fact mean it is not real. It just leads to better understanding what real means.
 
Spiralout
#59 Posted : 10/15/2018 6:40:29 PM

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For sure, if you have a whole season and a few tens of pereskiopsis you will have a ton of pereskiopsis on your hands by the end of the season... Wasn't sure if you have any more room to work with if you were able yo buy more lights...


Cool
 
pete666
#60 Posted : 10/15/2018 8:02:53 PM

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Almost 500 grafts is the max, I couldn't imagine I would invest more money or energy into it. Even now it is much more work than I thought!
Acceptance of the fact that our reality is not real doesn't in fact mean it is not real. It just leads to better understanding what real means.
 
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