Long post but I’m hoping someone with pharma experience could help me out. I have already read the FAQ and searched on my own for a while. If an answer to this exists, I can’t find it. Thanks in advance.

I know someone that wants to do pharma without having to take multiple dosages and playing around with them. They want pharma-superhuasca. Fairy normal metabolism, average weight and height.

They don't want to deal with multiple dosages, potentially wasting spice, so on. They are not worried about puking or it being overly intense. They would diet a week before just in case. They have some Harmine/harmaline FB, HCL and Harmine FB.
If they wanted to do pharma superhuasca which one should they take? or should they get some harmaline FB? They are looking for a very very strong experience.

When this person experienced Ayahuasca in Peru. None of this multiple dosing stuff was necessary.
Granted we are taking about a traditional spirit vine brew so this person might not even be able to recreate a true experience as described below.

I know considering the infinite amount of knowledge on this forum someone can tell me how to do this. It might just be as simple as taking what would seem like too much and next time backing off on it. Just not sure about the Harmine/harmaline FB, HCL and Harmine FB or harmaline fb.
I truly appreciate anyone that would take the time to help me figure this out.

In Peru the shaman gave them a cup with about 4oz of the foulest tasting, thickest, dirtiest, grimiest shit ever and they drank it immediately. They wanted to puke right after getting it down, but they were told by an English-speaking girl to wait 20 minutes. After 20 minutes, they were so happy they could finally puke and then it was on! Holy crap! There is no way they could have taken more unless a shaman was feeding it to them thru a tube down their throat or something. Even the thought of dosing again would be crazy.
The aya experience was like an lsd terror trip for 20 minutes at first. They were so disoriented that they felt powerless and nearly paralyzed. That made them think, omg did they just poison me? Are they going to harvest my organs? No shit. It was very scary at first.
It felt like too much at first, then the visions came. They heard a woman's voice. The woman said I know you're scared. I know you don't understand, but relax, just relax, open your heart and focus. The light guided them thru hyperspace from there and everything was good.

The difference with Aya vs a vape break thru was that drinking aya was like being in a hyperspace coma and freezing to death at the same time. It's an intense hyperspace coma but someone can wake you up if they try hard enough and ask if you are OK and then you can close your eyes and go right back into hyperspace as if it never happened. If that makes sense. Plus, the shipibo icaros amplify the experience.

The most intense part lasted for about 4 hours and then 2 hours of come down reflection each time.

This is what they want. Can this be obtained with pharma?
They tried to brew with caapi extract and mhrb and it failed. They don't want to waste anymore bark.

So, what about dissolving 300-400mg harmine FB or the full spectrum FB or HCL and 300mg holy grail FB in coca cola to make one drink? Should this be enough to work on an empty stomach? Besides having some preflight anxiety, they have always had a wonderful and enlightening experience with spice. It is a sacred gift of infinite knowledge to this person.

Like I said, they don't want to have to dose multiple doses. One dose, one time. They would rather deal with an overly intense situation than having to dose multiple times and risk wasting precious spice and or complicating the experience.

This person tried 4.5 grams Syrian rue seeds blended up in apple sauce and then 200mg spice 30 minutes later in OJ and it did absolutely nothing. This person then tried to take another 150mg spice in OJ an hour or so later and nothing but a tingle. It’s not the spice, so it's obviously being destroyed down under. What a waste.

So, what do you think?

I have read a lot of things on different forums saying that vaping is stronger than true ayahuasca, but in this persons experience that's not the case. Don't get me wrong. Both are intense, and lessons are to be learned from both. I like both equally. Just want it to last longer sometimes.

I think some think vaporizing is stronger because 1. Some people have never experienced true aya and or Aya has become so popular that when people go to the jungle(or wherever) for "healing" the shamans assume these people have emotional/mental problems and they don't want them to freak out so they give them the baby juice box ayahuasca and then put them down for a nap.

Either that, or the person I'm talking about was just lucky enough to go to a place that gives you very strong medicine.

If you made it this far I cannot express how grateful I am. Thank you.

Of course you can reach the same depths with brews as with pharmahuasca

I wouldn't use coca cola to dissolve everything into .. I mean if that's all you have...but then again ..maybe try for something a little more inert - like some pure fruit juice of some kind or something similar.

Also, you won't need much liquid, 80 to 100ml should do.

Also, sometimes things aren't necessarily dependent on dosage alone, other factors can influence how the experience is received and comes on, like mental weather, external influences, physiological factors. These things can often times [ime] shift things from 'not much going on' to 'uh oh..what have I done', sometimes it takes just a little tweaking throughout, movement, a stretch, a smile, a laugh, a glance in the other direction, so many little things can sway the direction of it and how it decides to come on. Just wanted to note this.

With that said, since you have the harmala freebase, dmt, etc, and I might get some flack for saying this, if you ...really want to go down that road ...I'd shoot for 280-300mg harmine and 100-120mg dmt, and if things were to work to their fullest extent ..and if personal physiology allows ..then that can be an incredibly powerful dosage [ime].

But just because you take this dosage though doesn't necessarily mean it'll deliver the beans ..it might not. Though obviously I'm not going to tell you some horrendously high dosage, though what I'd outlined above ..if that were to work to it's fullest potential ...then I think there's a good chance that you'll find what you're looking for. Because honestly man...that's a serious dosage, especially for many here.

Some take the maoi/dmt together, some wait 25 or so minutes between dosing the two. I ended up in the camp that dosed them apart, typically 25 minutes or so, and it's never failed me. Though in the very beginning of my pharma experiences I was weighing and dumping everything in a 00 vegetable capsule, then just down it with some water - which that also had worked, though ever since that point on forward I've stuck with dosing the two separate. I wait til I can barely stand from the harmalas [I might stand up briefly and walk a few steps to assess then sit/lay back down], then once I'm heavily taken over by the harmalas - that's when I take the dmt.


I hope everything works out for that special someone and they get what they're seeking. Let us know how it goes. <3

Wow, you just answered every question I had perfectly. Thanks for responding tatt. The only reason I said coca cola was because the entity(some one) wrote this in the essential guide to dmt on 12/8/2012:

"This can easily be done by dissolving the freebase DMT in vinegar (DMT-acetate), orange juice / lemon juice (DMT-citrate), or Coca-Cola (DMT-phosphate). Most people dissolve it in orange juice, but Coca-Cola is also excellent because DMT phosphate is one of the most potent forms of oral DMT. "


If you say pure fruit juice. I believe you When you say pure should you just squeeze 80-100ml out of an orange yourself?

Your description of waiting till you can't stand before dosing yourself with the spirit of osiris sounds like a proper method. I agree with you about mental and environmental factors. You never know. They are hoping to be somewhere between holy crap what did I do and omg this is awesome. But if in the event that it is holy crap what did I do, when they come back from it all, they will still say, that was awesome!!!

I'll tell them to go with 280mg harmine FB dissolved in pure fruit juice and to dose 120mg of dimethyltripping balls when the harmine takes effect. That way if 280mgs harmine isn't enough, they won't be wasting any of the holiest of the holies. Although, it would be a true tragedy if another 60mg in a vaporizer wasn't loaded up and ready to go for the come down. That sounds like a plan. They will probably diet for a week before and go for it when the time seems right. I'll let you know.

Thanks again tatt!

Eternal--

Good luck on your journey. I think you'll find that a range of dosages work well with pharma-- some like harmala dominant and some like dmt dominant. I encourage you to experiment. Here's a link to a poll that was done a while ago, but should give you a good background of examples:
Poll on Oral DMT Dosages

And yes, good ol' oj works great.

Thanks Nitegazer

Sure juice from an orange should work, I've done that on a couple occasions.




Sounds good what you outlined, last thing is make sure they're not any on sort of contraindicated medications, something that might interact, make sure of that and all should be well [though if that dosage were to fully manifest as it has for me and the others I've seen mentioned then that should be pretty powerful].

Set, setting, relaxed, loose, I'm sure you/they know what most of all that is and means, so yeah with all those things in order - all should go accordingly.

And also, vaping on the comedown is totally fine, though if this experience happens ..as it can [relative to what that dosage is capable of for some people under certain circumstances] ..then it could be potentially sufficient for some time to come.

Let us know what happens <3

** Also I hope I don't sound verbatim or with certitude, I'm just basing things off of what I've worked with and things I've seen others mention, but we're all different, so yeah .. I'm curious to know how it all goes

I highly advise you to read the entire thread that nitegazer just posted, from start to finish. It is an excellent discussion, with many different and interesting viewpoints. Here is a link to the start of the thread: Thread for Oral Dosage in Pharmahuasca w/ DMT Dosage Poll

You could combine the harmala and dmt ingestion, but split the dose into three subdoses, ingested at 15 minute intervals. Or do it like Jees has suggested in an earlier thread, predose about half of the harmalas, followed after some delay by dmt together with the other half of the harmalas.

Be careful with dosing too high on the dmt side. The experience with the shaman you talk about likely contained much less dmt and much more harmala, as scientific reports seem to point out to be customary in the Amazon. If you want to replicate that experience, more harmalas and less dmt than you state above are recommended.

You could also look at the paper by Callaway analysing ayahuasca brews. Dont know how to post a link to it but if you type Callaway decoctions in the google search box for this site, you should find it. He gives an analysis of several brews from a few amazonian tribes, as well as Santo Daime and UDV brews, with the quantities of Harmine, THH, harmaline and dmt in mg/ml. So you could just replicate using extracted alks.

Edit: Found it.

pitubo raises some good points, and that link he posted is good stuff

I'll add a bit of a caveat; if things end up working to their fullest extent, given all the factors, if it all goes off without a hitch ..your friend may be biting off more than they can chew, ..but then again since they've drank before then I think all will be well in the end most likely, then again this is just my opinion. Relaxed and loose

Tbh, the few brews that i've drank, primarily vine and chacruna, also vine and mimosa, man ...they were incredibly more difficult than pharmahuasca, the experience/s that I've had with pharmahuasca were incredibly concise and crisp, highly detailed, and gentler in a sense, even when things took a dive off the deep end, there was still this modicum of sense of self left always, though there were numerous times with drinking brews, for me it's different, much much more somatic, bordering on incredibly physical pressures, vibrations, feelings, idk ..it's always felt stronger overall relative to the pharma experience/s. These are just my opinions/experiences though.

I still think things will be alright ..given the bit of context of the situation from what you'd wrote, having drank before, etc ..that already gives some good footing for this upcoming experience imho, versus not having drank at all before.


Even say if you were cut it down a bit - to dose 200mg harmine freebase, wait 25 minutes or until you felt the harmalas set in, then maybe take 60mg dmt, wait an hour from that point and assess the momentum of what's happening, maybe have a small booster set aside [both harmalas and dmt mixed], have it all calculated out beforehand - just to make sure you're not going too far overboard. Otherwise it could be an incredibly long long night

Maybe like 25-30mg dmt mixed with 50mg more harmalas' - that's if nothing much is happening within that 90 or so minute-timeframe, aside from the harmala effects [which should be present].

I'll check it out and thanks for responding pitubo.

Awesome. Thanks

See this is why I started this thread. I'm glad you said this tatt. This person drank vine and chacruna(doctor ayahuasca) in Peru. From the experience reports I read about pharma, they seem to be not as strong compared to what this person experienced. Granted, you can't take either one lightly, but I was thinking this and the fact that you say it only confirms my believe that there is truth to this. Although, they won't know until they try. I guess I need to do more reading on dosage times. I still don't understand why this is necessary considering they don't do that traditionally as far as I know.
This person just took it on faith that the shaman would give them exactly what they needed considering his parents were shamans and he was raised to be a shaman, and he did.

My data points: (based on about 20 attempts)

* I've had very little success taking DMT/harmalas separately, except for one trip: 225mg DMT FB + 4g rue seeds tea, rue 20 minutes before DMT (dissolved in lemonade). This one was my strongest non-vaped trip so far.

* Most consistent success is with DMT+harmalas together. Harmalas are needed to protect the DMT from MAO in the gut before it can reach the brain. This means, if you take powders in capsules, you have to mix the powders together before putting them in capsules. Separate capsules for DMT/harmalas are unreliable because the DMT is unprotected.

* Dissolving DMT/harmalas in liquid and drinking it will generally make it more effective with quicker onset, since there is no delay of dissolving the powders in the stomach, which can take some time. But, I can't stand the taste anymore, so I go with capsules.

* I think you are close with the dose, I would reduce the DMT 50mg and add that amount to the harmalas. It could be quite strong but not ridiculously so. Maybe keep some extra booster doses ready (50/50 DMT/harmalas) in case you need more.

Actually it's more consistent when they are separated. You want to inhibit gut MAO-A first, and then consume the DMT when gut MAO-A is inhibited. If you consume the DMT too early or too late, the DMT will be partially or completely inactivated. Harmala/Rue extract in a capsule followed by the DMT 30 minutes to an hour later has always consistently activated Mimosa and Acacia for me, i never have dud experiences and it's been completely consistent and reliable/reproducible. With Harmalas/Rue/Caapi in tea form, it's my understanding that the gut's MAO-A inhibition is shorter in duration compared to the gut's MAO-A inhibition from Harmalas/Rue in capsule form because liquid is more easily and quickly absorbed, so for Harmalas in tea form probably around say 10 to 20 minutes between the Harmalas and the DMT, most likely, but i don't have much experience at all with Harmalas in tea form, i prefer capsules, they get the job done very well.

If you combine them, sometimes it'll work, sometimes it won't. I've read a lot of reports from people who have taken traditional Aya down in the jungle and they only ended up feeling the Caapi effects while others were off their rockers lol. It's pretty common from the looks of it. Could also perhaps be a dosage issue, where you need a good dose of Harmalas/Rue/Caapi to inhibit gut MAO-A strongly before the DMT has a chance to be metabolized out, so it could perhaps be that the duds from combined plants are resulting from not enough Harmalas/Rue/Caapi (gut MAO-A inhibition) rather than the combination itself. Plus it's been said that if you have a dud experience the first time or two, it'll eventually start working, which may have to do with the Harmala reverse tolerance (which makes the Harmalas stronger each time it's consumed, if consumed day after day/regularly) so the Harmala dosage would get stronger, inhibit gut MAO-A more fully and protect the DMT.

But i still say it's better to separate the plants, take a good dosage of Harmalas/Rue/Caapi (or Moclobemide) and then consume the DMT when you know gut MAO-A is fully inhibited. It may take a few tries to figure out how long gut MAO-A remains inhibited for you personally, but capsules are better and longer lasting than teas when it comes to the guts MAO-A inhibition so you'd have more success with Harmalas in capsule form, imo.

Arcologist,
This sounds like the same problem this person had.---
"This person tried 4.5 grams Syrian rue seeds blended up in apple sauce and then 200mg spice 30 minutes later in OJ and it did absolutely nothing. This person then tried to take another 150mg spice in OJ an hour or so later and nothing but a tingle. It’s not the spice, so it's obviously being destroyed down under. What a waste."

I thought the point is that the harmalas keeps the DMTranscendence from being metabolized.

So you're saying 330mgs harmine fb mixed with 70mgs spice? That seems very low on spice. This person vapes 60mgs no problem. I thought a higher dose was required to work when taken this way?

Logically it would seem like it would make more sense to take a lot of harmine like you said and 120-150mg spice bare minimum to protect it. Maybe even safer with 200mgs just in case some does get destroyed by the evil mao... ?

Right?

"This person tried 4.5 grams Syrian rue seeds blended up in apple sauce and then 200mg spice 30 minutes later in OJ and it did absolutely nothing. This person then tried to take another 150mg spice in OJ an hour or so later and nothing but a tingle. It’s not the spice, so it's obviously being destroyed down under. What a waste."

If they did not first grind up the Rue seed in a coffee grinder before blending it with apple sauce, and instead just mixed whole Rue seeds with applesauce, that was the problem. Rue seeds are tough/hard little seeds, they need to be ground into a powder, consumed, and then 30 minutes later consume the DMT. If 30 minutes still isn't long enough, try an hour. I used to drink my Acacia teas an hour after consuming Rue seed powder capsules or a Harmala/Rue extract capsule and it'd work like a charm, but 30 minutes should be fine.

Also if the 4.5 grams were to have been fully/properly absorbed (had it been in powder form), you most certainly would've felt it, 4 to 4.5 grams of Rue seed is STRONG and can cause quite the nausea/vomiting.

9 times out of 10, if the DMT doesn't work, it's something to do with the guts MAO-A inhibition from the Harmalas/Rue/Caapi/Moclobemide, either dosage related, or timing related.

They were grounded down to powder and then mixed into apple sauce. Tasted like shit, but wasn't that big of a deal. I felt a tingle an hour or so later after I already wasted spice. Kinda like coming down on a weak mushroom trip if that makes sense. No puking though, I have a strong stomach. This means I have a higher than normal tolerance then?

I wouldn't say you have a higher tolerance, a strong stomach might be reason enough for not vomiting, i have a messed up gut so it really doesn't take much to get my gut to purge lol, some people purge, some don't, but 4.5 grams of Rue seed powder is pretty strong, and if it was indeed ground down into a powder you should've definitely felt it.

Though another explanation is that the applesauce threw off the absorption/timing, which can happen on occasion i've noticed, food getting in the way of things. So next time encapsulate the Rue seed powder, should be between 4 to 6 capsules (not counting the weight of the capsules), i usually used 00 sized capsules, fitting about roughly 800mgs into each capsule so about 5 capsules for 4 grams, 6 capsules if the capsules are packed a bit lighter, wait 30 minutes and then try the DMT, should definitely work then. If it still doesn't work, which it should, but if it doesn't, and you're not feeling much of anything around an hour to an hour and a half, eat a little something to help move digestion forwards and it might kick things in but if you eat something between the Harmalas/Rue and the DMT it could throw off absorption and mess with the timing.

One night i took a dose of Rue and Mimosa, didn't feel much of anything (i think i had slow digestion due to decreased stomach acid due to taking too much Zantac), and so i figured it was going to be a dud experience so i fixed me some food to eat and head to bed, midway through eating i noticed things starting to kick in, my tv screen fragmented into puzzle pieces, then my body started going numb from my feet all the way up to my head and the only thing i could sense/feel/was aware of was my forehead, and then i saw a bright white light that was there regardless of closed or opened eyes, and then i chickened out and threw up, came back down over a few minutes, was definitely a one of a kind experience because that was the only time i had that happen lol.

What i don't understand is why throwing up stopped it from working...? When i drank the spirit-vine I puked 20 minutes later but there was no escape from it. It grabbed me and said "I own you.'

That's what i want.