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solving the mystery of jungle spice Options
 
burnt
#1 Posted : 11/22/2009 5:28:37 PM

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Hey folks,

I have prepared an imaginary study to show how one could theoretically solve the mystery of jungle spice. Here is the report. I will use SWIM to describe the imaginary person wrote the report.

SWIM prepared a crude jungle spice extract by adding powdered MH root bark into pH 12.3 KOH solution. Let sit on 50C for about an hour. extracted two times with toluene. evaporated toluene under reduced pressure. left with some residue that smelled like spice and had a brown/orange residue.

SWIM redissolved this residue in 90% acetonitrile and 10% water solution (for LC-MS analysis these solvents were used). SWIM then ran LC-MS using water acetonitrile (0.1% formic acid) gradient. The MS had an AP-ESI probe (which are useful for finding molecular ions with limited fragmentation).

Anyway the UV (254nm) chromatogram there was one large large tailing peak which ionized well and a couple of minor peaks that gave no ions in the MS. Tailing means the peak was a bad shape and next time SWIM needs to use stronger acid in mobile phase to get a better shape but anyway. SWIM looked at the total ion count of the large peak.

The peak had the following ions: 491 then 477 (molecular mass of yuremamine + 1 hydrogen) then the base peak at 189 (dmt) and another fragment at 115. There are more ions which confirm the structure which SWIM needs to work out the fragments still but anyway we have yuremamine present SWIM is nearly convinced. But how to explain the 491 peak? 491-477 is 14. SWIM thinks this peak may be some kind of adduct forming in the instrument but what typically gives a + 14 peak? SWIM is looking into this more.

Anyway so it seems yuremamine is present in jungle spice. more structural work to come. also the yuremamine peak could be overlapping with a dmt peak too but SWIM needs to improve the chromatography to solve that problem. SWIM is also preparing yuremamine extract the same way as Vepsalainen et al 2005 to confirm results as well.

so then what happens when you smoke it? SWIM analyzed the same material by GC-MS which at the injector is 280 degrees C. enough to vaporize dmt. anyway all SWIM sees is one peak for dmt and another peak for a beta carboline (the same one ID'd before) about ten times smaller then the dmt peak and another peak which is a plastisizer (SWIM used plastic in filtering the sample with solvent so plastisizer was present this almost always happens with plastics) and some kind of phenolic compound (which makes sense if yuremamine degraded).

SWIM will get more details out in the near future but SWIM thinks that what happens when you make STB jungle spice extracts is that you are extracting yuremamine and dmt (ratios probably vary depending on how extract was done). when you smoke it you convert most of the yuremamine into dmt and some of it into a beta carboline and some phenolics.

So anyway thats how you solve the mystery of jungle spice. I hope the report is useful. I am a bit messy now but can answer any questions or provide more fake data soon.

 

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endlessness
#2 Posted : 11/22/2009 6:24:15 PM

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hurray burnt Smile

a LOT of us have def many ideas of possible tests to make for the benefit of the community but dont have the equipment for it, so this kind of stuff is GREAT!

Other things your friend can test if he ever has time and possibilities:

difference in alkaloidal extract between, say, xylene/toluene and limonene extracted stuff

and in other areas, like what the heck is harmala red (result of redissolving harmaline in IPA or ethanol or acetone, maybe harmine too not sure).. This would also be something very appreciated

Can one also deduct quantities from these tests being done? like how much percent in these crude jungles there are of the different alks?
 
PerPLexED
#3 Posted : 11/22/2009 7:14:36 PM
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this is awesome Very happy could it be possible ot find the chemical structures of everything found?
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Jorkest
#4 Posted : 11/22/2009 9:18:35 PM

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well here is another interesting part of the puzzle....its been reported by a few people..that if you let jungle spice age for about a month...the effects drastically change...and also get stronger..with longer lasting effects...could yuremamine oxidize into something that would cause this effect?

and by the way this is awesome that this fake data is becoming available!
it's a sound
 
soulfood
#5 Posted : 11/22/2009 9:24:27 PM

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SWIM wishes he had the chops to understand burnts notes... but loves what he's doing all the same.
 
azrael
#6 Posted : 11/22/2009 11:15:49 PM
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Thanks burnt, this is fascinating Very happy

In theory, a SWIM might be able to discover the content/ratio from a variety of different solvent pulls (for finding the best jungle pulling solvent), and check those figures against each sample after they've been aged for a month. But it might just be an increase in potency when the aged jungle is vaped, so GC-MS to see if that beta-carb peak comes up on aged jungle?

Maybe then use the solvent that gets the most 477 to get some total jungle spice, treat it with hydrogen peroxide, check if the potency increases similar to aging as Jorkest mentioned, and then see if 477 etc is oxidizing to whatever mass that would be?

Just thinking out loud, I love this stuff Very happy
 
balaganist
#7 Posted : 11/22/2009 11:35:54 PM

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Nice one Burnt, interesting stuff. This is a subject I have been curious about since I began doing limonene MHRB extractions.
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ibeing897
#8 Posted : 11/22/2009 11:49:16 PM

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wow really cool... Swim has also noticed odd decomposition of jungle products, strange discolouration, even texture differences at different points in time ... I take it this means this just means stronger, longer dmt, and that yuremamine will display none of it's own effects?
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burnt
#9 Posted : 11/23/2009 8:34:55 AM

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Hmmm SWIM has been thinking about these fake analysis. The molecular weight of yuremamine is 467. Its molecular ion + 1 hydrogen (its normal to have + 1 H peaks in this type of mass spectrum because of the way its ionized AP-ESI) is 477 which is a peak in the MS spectrum. But 467 + 15 is 491 which is a bigger peak and the highest mass in the spectrum. 15 increment peaks are usually the sign of methyl groups. This could be explained by yuremamine being substituted with a methyl group somewhere (theres lots of hydroxyl groups on the molecule to substitute with a methyl group).

SWIM needs to do a few more tests before SWIM is convinced.

SWIM will try and think up some more fake data in the coming week or so. SWIM still needs to test a cold methanol extract so make sure no funny artifacts are forming. Some fake structures might help explain all this too but SWIM can never figure out how to post them.

Quote:
wow really cool... SWIM has also noticed odd decomposition of jungle products, strange discolouration, even texture differences at different points in time ... I take it this means this just means stronger, longer dmt, and that yuremamine will display none of it's own effects?


I dunno if yuremamine has any of its own effects. It could just be acting like a pro-drug you know what I mean?

Quote:
In theory, a SWIM might be able to discover the content/ratio from a variety of different solvent pulls (for finding the best jungle pulling solvent), and check those figures against each sample after they've been aged for a month. But it might just be an increase in potency when the aged jungle is vaped, so GC-MS to see if that beta-carb peak comes up on aged jungle?


What exactly do you mean by aging? Letting it sit at room temp? Or in the fridge freezer?

Quote:
well here is another interesting part of the puzzle....its been reported by a few people..that if you let jungle spice age for about a month...the effects drastically change...and also get stronger..with longer lasting effects...could yuremamine oxidize into something that would cause this effect?


Hmm again SWIM is not so sure yuremamine by itself is active but rather that it acts like prodrug converting to dmt and some other compounds depending on how it gets degraded (stomach heat extraction artifacts etc). What would really tell is if someone could purify it and test it orally and vaped. But thats way more work. Maybe SWIM can figure out easy way to isolate without chromatography. Just hexane pulls perhaps.
 
Phlux-
#10 Posted : 11/23/2009 9:42:57 AM

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yeah i had noticed that on jorkests tek - if the spice is left at room temp in darkness in a small glass vial the jungle changes in fx - becomes far more powerfull and the color changes.
i think tests on dlimo extracted spice would be most beneficial to the community as that seems the be the favorite non polar solvent.
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burnt
#11 Posted : 11/23/2009 6:14:24 PM

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Quote:
Can one also deduct quantities from these tests being done? like how much percent in these crude jungles there are of the different alks?


Sorry missed this question. Yes one can do this kind of thing. But its more work and more instrument time. Mainly what one needs is reference compounds and that involves purifying the compounds and making calibration curves etc. But there are rough ways of estimating that can at least give a rough percent comparison.

 
soulfood
#12 Posted : 12/11/2009 2:44:22 AM

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That's quite interesting there Spiceman.

You should write up a detailed tek for it and I'd gladly try it.

Have you tried repeating this but missing some of the extreme pH conditions to see if it works the same?
 
Heretic
#13 Posted : 12/11/2009 11:18:39 AM

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Spiceman wrote:
Hmm... way back years ago this swim was the original founder of the (as phlux has coined it the "earwax" alkaloid present in MHRb) . It is CRUCIAL that this material is not confused with the red jungle spice that is pulled via tolulene and or xylene. This material has only been pulled (to the best of my knowledge) by the use of Di-ethyl Ether and Heptane in combo. (swim has never tried them singularly.)

During the first few days after pulling this substance it carries only a heavy body load with NO mental effects whatsoever. However upon aging for several weeks it becomes a powerful mind blowing tryptamine, VERY VERY diffrent in nature to spice or the red jungle spice pulled by xyl or tol.

Swim has been carrying this banner for years trying to draw the line and show that this is a very distinct and different material. He discovered this by using an original tek involving ph extremes and a binary solvent system of Di-ethyl ether and heptane 8-1. This material has never recieved the attention that it so blatently deserves.

Those who explore , would really love to try this. However the nay-sayers out there are always ready to say that "it's mostly dmt, with maybe traces of a beta carboline or something of this nature" . THIS IS NOT TRUE. This material has successfully been extracted by swim dozens of times ... and every time it was completely (within reason and trace amounts) washed free of DMT - Via its insolubility in naptha.

Swim would love to have a sample of this stuff checked out... but doesn't expect to find out what it exactly is for years to come. Its very possible that this material could be partially synthetic , being formed by one of the already present beta carbolines or whatever picking up a group of something during the extraction.. and upon aging ... it could possibly be shedding a group or even picking up another . Perhaps it does pick up something during extraction .. which forms a non-psychoactive substance, and perhaps it sheds it in a diffrent way to form something new, or perhaps the group it picked up acts as a bridge, allowing other molecules present in the air to grab onto it over time.

This is all just speculation ofcourse, but the fact remains this stuff is in there. Swim just saw this as another chance to champion the sacred substance which he has NEVER been able to convince anyone else to give a try pulling. It would def be worth pulling for some real tests. Fuck its worth pulling to smoke ! Somebody , please, someday give this a try and spread the word. I'm tired of fighting this fight alone. YOu will not be dissapointed!

Look at the pics of the first successful pull of this stuff. These pics were taken 27 days after the original pull* (10 + washes with HOT naptha to remove all traces of DMT), at which time they were fully psychadelic, maintained a constant weight and color. Beautiful crystal formations can be seen if you can get this pic in good resolution. Pay no attention to the file name, this was a long time ago when there wasn't any info out there on this subject.

http://i148.photobucket....ineoryuremamine003-1.jpg

Peace!


swim has ethyl-ether and heptane, do you think if he pulls his magic jug with it (after it's completely been sucked dry with xylene btw) he'll get this deep jungle you speek of? Swim will dream soon and report back.
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Espiridion
#14 Posted : 12/15/2009 4:10:45 PM

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I would simply like to echo Spiceman's appeal to those with the ability and apparatus to attempt and purify this tek.

I have watched the evolution of acetate tek's, fumarate salt tek's, d-limonene tek's and feel something amazing has been achieved. I believe Mimosa has more to offer than straight N,N-DMT.



A huge encyclopedia of herbal knowledge once made me aware of the numerous alkaloids and other active organics in any given plant. When I read of the six alkaloids in Ephedra and how they balanced each other out, I realized that all the side effects of using ephedrine alone could probably be eliminated.

I made tea of the plant matter and while it was not as strong as ephedrine alone, it did not have the negatives associated with it.



I agree that isolating individual components is very useful. Pull an alk, tinker with it, strengthen it, explore it and evolve it.

But lets not forget that nature has been doing just that for tens of millions of years. If it is here and alive on this planet it is solely because it works.



I LOVE the non-tox tek. WHATEVER it is, is amazing. So gentle, so smooth. I would absolutely give this to anyone curious about spice before pure spice any day. It simply takes you there without all the G-force.


If there is something else to be had from precious mimosa we would be derelict to not try and find it. I have been spurned by this wonderful substance to learn more about organic chemistry and have found it to be fun and rewarding. I will do my part where ever and when ever I can.


Having said that, where can I get heptane!!!?Very happy



TO THE NEXUS!!!,


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Who looks outside, dreams. Who looks inside, awakens. Carl Jung

 
burnt
#15 Posted : 12/15/2009 10:07:04 PM

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Hexane and heptane have almost the same selectivity for compounds I doubt these is a big difference between the two. With di-ethyl ether and toluene the same red stuff was extracted. Although SWIM theoreptically wound up combining all the stuff in the end so can't say what it was like to smoke it looked the same. Regardless the chemical profile was the same in the end with toluene and diethylether combined and with later experiments with toluene on its own. Of course other analytical approaches could and should be taken to resolve this issue in a clear manner.


Quote:
Those who explore , would really love to try this. However the nay-sayers out there are always ready to say that "it's mostly dmt, with maybe traces of a beta carboline or something of this nature" . THIS IS NOT TRUE.


Um some of these naysayers have done detailed chemical analysis. Your just pulling with random solvents and smoking whats left over. That doesn't tell you much about whats in it. Chemical analysis does. Jungle spice pulled with toluene (no naptha or hexane before or after) its most dmt and another alkaloid according to GC-MS and LC-MS but different alkaloids are seen with each method. When heated in a GC a beta carboline is formed its putative structure has been posted. Do you want the mass ions to speculate on that? Another compound has been observed in un-heated extracts via LC-MS which appears to be something like yuramamine except with a +15 peak which SWIM is puzzled over. But more experiments need to be done on that to really be sure there were some issues with the instrument at the time.

Anyway based on what SWIY has said and what SWIM has observed theoretically some ideas can be formed as to whats probably going on. When SWIY pulls with heptane and diethylether both dmt and this potential yuramamine or something similar is pulled out. SWIY then selectively removes all the dmt. Over time the yuramamine degrades back into dmt and another beta carboline so the stuff becomes active in that way again. Is that not possible? This also explains why regular toluene jungle spice gets stronger over time. The yuramamine (or something similar) is degrading and forming more dmt and probably some other compounds as well. I'd imagine this yuramamine like compound could degrade in slightly different ways its aged slowly or heated and smoked fastly. This kind of artifact situation could explain the differences.

SWIM agress and does think there are other interesting active compounds in mimosa SWIM is open more theoretical experiment to try and resolve these issues.

Lets make a theoretical experiment.

So far cold methanol extraction has been done. STB toluene has been done. Ether can be compared. Also toluene extract can have all dmt removed and then analyzed by two analytical methods.

 
burnt
#16 Posted : 12/16/2009 8:46:11 AM

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SWIM certainly find these reports interesting and would like to find out whats responsible. Its also difficult to tell because SWIMMERS might be using different varieties of mimosa no one can be sure.

Its possible that SWIY has removed all the dmt and is smoking that left over alkaloid. That's for sure possible.

Either way if SWIM can get some instrument time there will be more data for us to ponder over.
 
Heretic
#17 Posted : 12/16/2009 10:57:59 AM

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swim's xylene pull is see-through and not yielding anymore. e3x (ethyl-ether experiment) commencing!
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Heretic
#18 Posted : 12/16/2009 12:04:41 PM

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well the ether turned yellow as if it were saturated... swim is going to evap the first pull and try and fasa the 2nd and fasw the third. stay tuned...
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Heretic
#19 Posted : 12/16/2009 6:19:22 PM

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100 ml of ether/heptane were added to hot a/b jug completely exhausted of white yellow and red via numerous hot naptha and hot xylene pulls as well as being defatted with xylene and naptha before basification.
the jug is shaken and the layers allowed to separate and a tinted yellow layer rests on top. 50 ml of this yellow ether was evaporated to yield.... an orange/red liquid that won't come close to solidifying and is not even thick in the slightest.
...although...
meanwhile swim takes a 4 or so hour break forgetting about the 50 ml of ether still in the jug... and when checked swim finds the remaining ether has taken on an ORANGE color! note: when more ether was added it didn't take on the orange color but instead reverted to a light yellow/clearish color reminiscent of the first ether pull! swim supposes the ether needs time to absorb all the goodies hiding in the jug...

swim is very excited and is about run fasa on this orange ether!
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Heretic
#20 Posted : 12/16/2009 7:15:03 PM

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10 ml of red ether was evaporated to yield a sticky red product... much harder than the previous one...

fasa was added to the other 15 ml of ether turning the solution extremely cloudy on impact... to a much higher degree then swim's latter xylene pulls when hit with fasa...

WTF? swim was confident that jug was cashed, all the white + yellow was pulled with naptha (8 pulls total) and 8 pulls total were done with xylene as well. Either the ether grabbed what the xylene missed (red oxide?) or you are correct about another alkaloid.

swim will update when the fumarate forms and then once again when the freebase is born.
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