Seems like this question is asked a lot (though mostly other outlets), "I need to share my enlightenment" or people questioning the reality of their visions when they feel more real than real, but they are attempting to use logic and reason to counteract those more base instincts to believe (thank you Descartes).

This leads to some interesting questions that you can frame from philosophy.. by defining each term:
1. What is knowledge?
2. What is enlightenment?
3. What proof do we need to evaluate objectively that the knowledge is actually valid?

Part of grounding properly after is understanding that "there is no knowledge". 30ish years of Hyperspace and we have 0 proof that it is anything more than the mind. 10's of thousands have tried to prove that the information they gleaned was external. It is very possible. However, to state that "you have some great new piece of information" you must go and validate it externally first.

I had an experience where I saw the universe be created and was told about God with Aya.. it healed a lot of my grief (I had a child who was possibly dying). When I came out I wanted to be a street preacher because everyone got it wrong, and we needed to start from love always. I knew better though, that it was "what I really needed to see to heal" and that I had nothing concrete to go on other than the experience.

Through 2 years of philosophy and researching psychiatry and things like the deceptive mind, we must always admit and understand this could be "all us on mind altering drugs" and nothing external is in contact with us.

So with that said.. when is it time to share? IMHO: Anytime as long as you always keep in context that it could be "all you buddy".

What is the level of scrutiny? Mine would have to be information that no one else knew, otherwise you can't rule out the "possibility of the subconscious" being injected into the experience.

Any thoughts or people who claim they have proof of external information?

I tend to laugh (and not in a mean or cruel way) when anybody claims that they've got "proof" of anything.

I also tend to laugh a lot when there is such an emphasis on an "external" vs. an "internal"...As if, other than relatively speaking, there are such things.

I've observed that it is difficult for most people (I am obviously generalizing here) to accept that Life/The Universe/Everything is firmly, tragically and comically grounded/rooted in pure, unadulterated Mystery.

Most folks, in some deep, deep part of their being, really want to be sure of something when there really isn't anything to be sure of. However, from another perspective (that some folks seem to be able to keep up some of the time) the Entirety of the Utter Mystery of Life/The Universe/Everything is what makes it so freaking amazing.

Of course, seeing it this way can be quite depressing too, depending upon how secure one feels on any given day, or in any given moment, with simply being a tiny node of infinite consciousness in an infinite field of Consciousness.

Infinity, timelessness and oneness are concepts that many people may extol as wonderful in their church or new age settings, but when actually facing Infinity, Timelessness and Oneness at point blank range, these same people will be terrified because the experience blows apart all their little concepts of how things are, such as, "this is inside of me; that is outside of me".


It is a never-ending tightrope balance trick, from cradle to grave.

May we all find our Peace

I think it is a matter of belief. And though i have often critisized people making all kind of spiritual and/or metaphysical claims, i do tend to belief that there ís something more going on than what can be explained by materialism.
So it is not the idea of there being something more or something higher that i resent, but the 'certainty' with wich those claims where being made, the lack of doubt. And the rejection of science, or the idea that products of mere speculation ought to be seen as equal to science.

Doubt is natural and good. It is a correction mechanism that keeps us from making huge mistakes.

Some people describe hyperspace as being 'more real than real'. I know what those people mean. But in our everyday lives, we are living in a material world.
And though i tend to believe that there is something higher, something godlike maybe, i could never allow that belief to make me reject that material world, to reject science.

I could maybe spent over a hundred pages explaining why, but in short i think i could summarize this why, by simply saying that if i where to reject the material world, i would not be that different from religious fundamentalists. And i don't want that.

Religious nuts who go to schools, airports or shopping malls to randomly shoot or blow up people are doing something that is very wrong. That is because the reality they operate in is very much the material world: the only way in wich you could prove the existence of the very people they kill, is by materialism. If you reject that, than maybe those people don't even exist.
But the principle upon wich they base their actions, is something outside the material world.
Something of wich the existence is far less certain.
Or at least it is, from the perspective of the material world.
Because if the perspective from wich you operate is contained within the material world, you cannot at the same time reject that material world. A terrorist can use all kind of justifications for his actions, but not the idea that the people he is killing maybe don't realy exist.

If you want to kill people, you want to be sure that your justification is still sound, if you assume that your victims actually DO exist.
I don't think i need to explain that you are being a monumentous asshole if you reject that principle.

So why is killing people that different from so many other decissions we make, concerning the material world? Wouldn't we want those decissions to be defendable, even if the world in wich those decissions are being made, is real?
But from that perspective, the hyperspace world is less certain. Even if it feels more certain....because: chemistry and the brain. And like is said, you can reject 'chemistry and the brain'. But not if your context of operating is the material world.

And i think btw a good god would understand that. Not that i think i know what a good god would want. But at least i know he/she/it would not want us to go against all that is rational when the outcome of our decissions would concern others. Because in that case you could no longer make any distinction at all between the actions of a realy spiritual person, and those of a guy like charles manson.

I am still baffled at all this dancing around the hole, it seems like a waste of time.

What is actually funny is that when you make this assumption that you know nothing, you are placing yourself on that very deep layer unseen to the naked eye. If you ground yourself into this present moment, you have to translate that mesmerizing and uncertain darkness into a visible light. There will always be movement, but there is such thing as an order to this world and to how we experience those realms beyond wakeful perception.

My experiences with spice have permeated my whole life, I cannot see those degrees of experiencing reality as seperated.

What is internal and what is external? Is it not those clouds and the sun that made you? Are they not both internal and external? Do you not perceive them by your senses, internally so?

This whole thing about the need of proof is cancer for me, it is the denial that you can feel the truth instictively. That your body can perceive the truth. Your body was made by nature, couldn't nature know itself? Do you really need to create some external means to measure that "truth" - which might loose all its grace and beauty as you do - and that would somehow reassure you in having some form of definitive answer?

These are not "mind altering drugs", they are the gifts of nature, the food of the gods. Calling it a drug is like calling your mother a whore and your father a rapist.

As for the subconscious, of course it infuses each and every things. But again we have diminishing understanding of things so primordial because we think with rpoof and rationalism, not feelings. The subconsious is something that is alive. It is the museum of consciousness as nature's is. Who could think his spirit is dead?

You can't see the spirit, you can't grasp it, hold on to it. It is innefable. So you will doubt its very existence. You enter in that strange realm of doubting your own existence, your own experiences, and those are all steps taken so many times before us, but that we repeat on scale so wide and terrible for our surrounding. It leads to truth still.

Yet you can see the spirit, you can touch it, feel it, in those moment where the mind reveals itself. But not grasp it. To see it fully you have to die, let go of the ego that you are. You have to let your eyes dillate themselves and encompass something so vastly greater than anything you could imagine, but you do imagine it and it imagines you. And that spirit realm is only the other side of the world. The night of its day. But since we can't control the spirit and it worries us so much, we try to control reality. The spirit realm is full of uncertainty and deformations, the real world we can find a comfortable and fix understanding off. But in doing so, we seperate the spirit and the world, we do not see them as whole and the consequences of this are terrible. And yet that nature of the mind, that tricky and playful nature, it is necessary, maybe obligatory, to make you understand what you are. Everything is movement. The spirit realm, that is so many things at once and can go faster than light, that is: time and space are undefined and unbounded, yet there rules and a truth in there. And that is where you get when you peal all the layers, in our era there is a lot of garbage in our mind as there is in the world so this can take some time and sacrifice, but you get there. The sacred realm within your mind.

Entheogens are the fire from the gods we use to shed light on the shadows of the soul. While in dream we are merely consciouss, the soma allows us to see so clearly and sharply, so vividely, the other side of ourselves. And we bring gifts and wonderish things from there, mad things, insane things.

Today, man is trying to shed light on the darkness in material form, there is artificial light everywhere and it ruins the night. We seeks to kill the uncertainity of the night because it reminds us of death and losing control. I think all the proofs and the hyper rationalist dissection of reality, might it be material, through sciency disciplines, or the soul, psychanlysis and such things, are this unhealthy way of looking at reality. Because it is too precise, much more than needed, it is excessive. And so it destroy the equilibrium of the world and ourselves.

And this hyper rationlist view came from the inside of our mind, from the form that took our thought, yet is accompagnied by an isolations in cities and is fairly recent, very fast in its evolution. While the body took million years to evolve, slowly and magnificently. And all the machines are amplifying this to extreme extent. We are seeing the world through machines and not our bodies anymore. Our senses are not sharp, nor precise and cunning anymore. Why would our mind be then? Are the body and the mind not so intricately related?

All I'm saying really is: trust yourself, sharpen your mind and body, if you are in your center you will know.

Good responses on both. Thank you!





Galileo wrote that God had given us reason, senses and intellect and expected us to use them.

I do believe Theism has the same problem when gnosis is applied. "It seems so real to me how would I doubt that they weren't true".

I believe there are objective moral laws, but not any that can come from man, just due to our ego. Also all the other "needs" we have are fulfilled like sex, food, etc. The only one we seem to have that we can't seem to fulfill is a need for understanding "what else there is" and a search for the external. While those cannot prove God, it makes it so I can't be an atheist as neither seem to lead me to random creation, but on the other hand doesn't lead to any physical proof either.
C.S. Lewis has a great piece on Science v Religion (lewisdoodles does a great set of artwork for it on youtube). But in the end calls out science for what it is.. a study of matter/mass, nothing more.

Again, in philosophy I don't really hang my hat on anything. I just look for the next best argument and ways to define the topics in a way that everyone debating is on the same page.

Again, thanks for the comments
~Ess

I think that understanding they are personal and "I needed to hear it" for a utilitarian standpoint is the safest route. There are interesting external coincidences, like common entities and stories especially when on high dose mushroom, ayahuasca and pharmahuasca.

I do not believe they have explained the experience, only what receptors they can trigger and what they control. Again, at the end of the day they all have to be put away as "neat theories" until they can be proven. As you cannot base a life belief off of a vision while on mind altering substances without knowing that it could all be you.

I totally believe my life changed for the better after a high dose trip to the jungle. However, I still know it could all just be in my head. I think the best proof of that is the "nonsense" you know is a psychotic break rather than some divine insight by just hearing it. It isn't a small percentage either... I got a taste of this from my jungle experience when I was talking to someone after who thought "satan was on saturn". All I could think was, how could you touch the divine and come back with that nonsense in your head.

James Kent is a harsh critic, I think he is wrong on alot to most, but some of his points are valid. Like we always like to skip over the people who have a hard time grounding or had a really bad experience and write it off. I have seen enough "bad side" with people on each substance that seemed "divinely inspired" to me, I will never be able to shake it so that doubt will always be there (though it would be anyway I think).

I love this stuff, I think with the right mindset and understanding, a loving tripsitter and a good place to be that this is therapeutic, maybe the most therapeutic one can be by oneself.

Thank you for the good well thought out response

Drug: "a medicine or other substance which has a physiological effect when ingested or otherwise introduced into the body" Websters. That is my intent with the word.

Welcome metashaman!, Again!

I like the avatar

You seem to think that a human being has to choose between following the path of rationality, or that of spirituality. Like it has to be either this way, or the other.

Like there is no time and place, and no need or use, for the both of them.

I think that sprituality is very important. That we need to feel that we are a part of something bigger. That we realy need to feel this connection.

But at the same time, i realy do believe that those feelings need to be balanced with a good dose of rationality. So that from time to time we do indeed need to ask for proof, and so on.

To keep us from making huge mistakes.

I saw a documentary once about the jerusalem syndrome. There was this guy who went to jerusalem. And then he suddenly realised that in a past life he had been the herald of jesus or something. And that he had to be the herald of jesus again, in the present. So he dressed up as a herald of jesus, wearing a white cape and a harp.

Later on, a hsitorian told, that in jesus' time, there where no such heralds in jerusalem, with white capes and harps.

No it isn't.

And why couldn't DMT be both a gift of nature and a foof of the gods, AS WELL AS a mind altering drug?

The words we speak are important, as well as how we ordain them.

The word drug is associated with many unnecessary bad connotation and does only give a very brief and surface look upon what those plants are. Why would you not name it after its essence? It is a deeper view.

Using the word drug will perpetuate the unbalanced materialist view that is poisoning our society. You just can't not give a rightful name to the most powerful tool in the universe. However that does not mean you do not see all its layers, that is that is affecting your mind and it is a mind altering substance. If you say to someone: I give you the food of the gods, or: I give you a drug. I can tell you their experience will be different.

I don't see why you wouldn't call it anything other than drug, or get deeper. Are you afraid people will look at you like a freak? People often look at things that are deeper as if it was freaky, because they don't know what lies deeper. They think you can't know. If you know you're not afraid.

I can't delete this second post, it is telling me I am not granted access

not really sure what do you mean by external and interial. If it's true and quantum vibrations do happen inside microtubules then it would basicaly mean that we are connected to whole universe. I can't really seperate things at all... if i don't understand something basically it means it's to deep in the rabbit hole and we still did not got there but probably sooner or later will.

In my humble opinion and from experience i think that we will never know if the experience is real or just our minds because the DMT experience is a mystery,THE mystery and it transcends the laws of phisics and cognition!

Also language fails to fully incorporate and describe the experience,and language is capable to describe outer space,thougts,feelings,landscapes,situations but when it comes to DMT(the full on breaktrough) it falls short!

And another thing is,who are we to fully understand the nature of the universe and its artefacts,even if what happens on DMT is just a manifestation of the mind it stil is the same experience,you see it you feel it,you interact with it, you learn from it!

Who knows!

Op,great post

So what is just in our mind isn't real. Our mind aren't real. Post-christianism strikes again.

The consequences of this are tremendous. If you doubt what is in your mind is real, you will seek to proove it is. You will create many unecessary things to prove yourself your perceptions, which have now turned in delusions, are real. That is you will create object to reassure yourself your doubt is true, and of course it will reassure you because it will further that doubt.

Body is fruit of the world. Mind is fruit of the body.

You cannot dissociate mind and body - we'll call it Bodin then.

So, when Bodin eats the world, the fruit from the world, it is his body and the world giving him gifts for the mind.

Is the world and the body illusions? No, they are pure and true.

If you doubt this, you doubt you exist. Which is a serious matter and actually the delusion. The "unreal".

The world IS. It exists, you don't need proof because you are the world and know yourself.

Reality exists. Unreality doesn't exists. Simple and effective.

You see mind and body as seperated. So what the fruit of the world reveals to you, you think it is seperated from the world. You're looking at the differencies and not the similitudes. If they weren't any similitudes, it wouldn't exist. It wouldn't be real.

You have been exposed to foreign language, but the body language is similar in some ways.

The further you go into this alienish language, the further you need to keep yourself centered for the similitudes. That process can eventually happen by itself or be a natural following to experiencing this extreme differenciation.

Until you reach THE similitude, the Essence.

So you just can't keep going mind and body seperate, you need unite for you will know better, grow better and stronger and give more fruits then. You need ground the experience. The night exists, just as the day does. The magic of the Spïce is everywhere in this world.

Be Bodin.

Now try and describe to me with words what it feels like to be Bodin. If you can.

If only we could truly know ourselves.

I agree with you ÅikyǬ and dragonrider

The word drug carries a lot of negative implications so I prefer the term entheogen. Most people are so brainwashed and blinded by anti-drug propaganda that they cannot accept the consciousness dissolving efficacy of these medicines. They don't follow their true passions in life. They live depressing and sheltered lives and they chastise others who actually strive for true happiness in this life. We live in a dead culture. A lot of people live in poverty and work themselves to death. This "rationalist" western paradigm is a kind of schizophrenic mind trap. It is a religion. For instance, the founding fathers of the Americas, I think it is safe to say, failed to develop a utopia. There dreams failed. They were wrong. The government became a force which steals freedom and has relapsed into fascism. I think that seeing is truly believing. There is magic in the world. I am saying that the body is not real though

I don't acknowledge the New Age spiritualism as a viable replacement for the ancient hermetic traditions. These hermetic cults, the illuminati, the hermetic order of the golden dawn, and the free masons were founded to preserve this special knowledge from those who were not initiated. This is gnosis. It rejects religious dogmas and our conventional materialistic consumerist obsession. Is it the truth? I don't think so. It is not based on egalitarian principles.

I think it is crazy to suggest that this physical reality of the five senses is any more real then the spiritual dimensions. Dimensions which are not compatible with our obsessively rational western paradigm. I believe the idea that this physical reality is the only reality is a destructive ideology which is responsible for wiping out all of these plant species, the rainforest, poisoning the earth and the oceans, the air we breath, all of our resources. And the psychopaths who run this world don't care. They will die alone and afraid. They will see the suffering they have caused and they will pay because actions have consequences. Either in this life or the next.

How can you say that there is no spiritual world when you can feel the gaian mind breathing down your throat telling you that we are a godly timeless, sovereign soul, trapped in some mechanistic body which had been dreamed into existence by some ineffable force. Evolution is compatible with this but that is also just a scientific theory. It is not the whole story. I don't think our science is advanced enough to really explain what is occurring in these psychedelic states. Also most science is also incredibly bias. I think we should really question how valuable science is. I think we will outgrow science and develop something better.

There is no need to prove it. Why would anyone need to prove external contact? The contact, whether it be internal or external, only matters in a personal way.



I think that by refusing to use the word drug we are also in danger of buying into the anti drug propaganda. We are kinda going along with the whole drugs are bad thing when surely we want to change the attitude towards drugs. I take drugs and, like a lot of other things when consumed with a bit of thoughtfulness and moderation, they are good.