CHATPRIVACYDONATELOGINREGISTER
DMT-Nexus
FAQWIKIHEALTH & SAFETYARTATTITUDEACTIVE TOPICS
123NEXT»
Veganism and Ethics Options
 
Phantastica
#1 Posted : 10/16/2017 3:53:34 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 785
Joined: 09-May-2010
Last visit: 07-Jan-2018
Hey everyone! I'm sure we have a diverse group of vegans and non-vegans here, so I wanted to start a discussion regarding veganism from an ethical perspective.

I became vegan about 6 months ago after watching this speech by Gary Yourofsky and I've been very passionate about this subject from a social justice and ethical perspective ever since.

I've seen discussions on this subject often derail into impoliteness from both sides in the past, so I'd just like to make a friendly reminder to keep it respectful (and to stay on topic), because it's an important subject.

The heart of the vegan argument is that putting animals through suffering and killing is unnecessary (because our bodies do very well on plants), and therefore it is unethical to eat animal products just for taste (in the current day and age when we have countless alternatives).

What's your position and why?

<3
<3
 

Psychedelic news, articles, interviews and art from the DMT-Nexus and other sources.
 
SpaceSeek
#2 Posted : 10/16/2017 6:05:39 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 97
Joined: 25-Jun-2012
Last visit: 21-May-2018
Location: in-between thoughts
I, myself choose Veganism for the ethical reasons. Killing countless animals for taste/pleasure and nutritional benefits that can easily become met by eating plant-foods in my opinion is simply madness and unsustainable for a future that I want for my self and others.

I am one month from my first year anniversary of becoming fully sustained on a plant-based diet.

Learned a lot in the process. Supplements, vitamins, and psycho-physical management.

Funny enough, it all started after a three gram Syrian Rue brew.
SpaceSeek is a fictional character. Everything posted on this account is for educational and entertainment purposes only. SpaceSeek does not condone the use of any illegal substance. Use of post content from this account without authors said permission is prohibited.

Love,
SpaceSeek
 
dragonrider
#3 Posted : 10/16/2017 6:32:48 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 1063
Joined: 09-Jul-2016
Last visit: 22-Oct-2018
Location: spacetime
I am a vegetarian. When i eat egs or dairy products i make sure that they're from a small local farm where the animals are being treated with respect. The downside is that they are more expensive, and not Always available throughout the year.

About so many animals it should be clear to anyone, by just observing them, that they are counscious beings. I think it's just Obvious. But if the Obvious is not convincing enough...all mammals have basically the same kind of brain structures. So if the brain is responsible for counscious experience, then at least all mammals are counscious.
 
endlessness
#4 Posted : 10/16/2017 9:58:53 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Moderator

Posts: 13077
Joined: 19-Feb-2008
Last visit: 22-Oct-2018
Location: Jungle
I'll start this off by saying that any honest desire to reduce suffering and to try to be more sustainable is a positive thing and should be promoted. That being said, I think it is way more complex than simply vegan/vegetarian vs meat-eating. Let me quote myself from another thread, with some ideas and questions that may stir the debate up (note this was responding to a post that had a way more "holier than thou" attitude which is not displayed in this thread at least of yet:


Quote:

I think this false moral dichotomy of meat eating vs vegetarianism/veganism fails to look into the subtleties of the debate. What is more sustainable or creates less suffering, eating a chicken you grew in your own farm or game meat that was killed instantaneously after living a great life, versus getting some fruit or vegetable that came from hundreds or thousands of kms away from a big monoculture, plus with all the packaging and transport and the resources necessary for the technology used in all of that process?

What about those using computers or technology (pretty much all of us)? The extraction of minerals and production of these materials create destruction, including loss of animal lives and a huge ecological impact

Is it so far fetched to imagine the idea that maybe there is a middle path, and that people may try to be as conscious as possible and that might include eating meat or animal products at some point or another, and yet still be good person to animals and people and act as sustainable as they can and that is reasonable given their context and life? Is it also too far fatched to think that some people are vegetarians or vegans and yet are assholes or just in general also create suffering to humans or other types of animals/insects/life-forms and are full of contradictions? How do we really rate and measure compassion and wisdom and whether a person is conscious of their actions or not?

 
urtica
#5 Posted : 10/17/2017 4:02:53 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 226
Joined: 25-Feb-2009
Last visit: 22-Oct-2018
Location: meow
I was a vegan for many years, and ultimately my health suffered for it. I think it is really hard to get all the nutrition you need on a vegan diet unless you are supplementing quite a bit with often expensive products.

I also like to think about, say, the thousands of animals (mice, frogs, birds, rats, gophers) that are killed in the process of plowing up a field to plant it full of soy, or in burning down huge swaths of the rainforest in order to grow soy, in order to make vegan foods.

I also think it depends on the landscape upon which you live if it makes more sense to get your protein from meat than from plants. I often hear the argument that you can produce x number of lbs of protein by growing soy on x number of acres, while the same number of acres only produces x lbs of protein (a much smaller number) when cows are raised on it. While this may be true in some landscapes, in the USA for example the majority of cows are pastured in the arid inter montane regions where there is not enough water to irrigate soy fields, but the native grasses can sustain cattle and only need what little rain is naturally provided to grow. In that landscape I think it makes sense to eat cows. I would rather see folks eating buffalo since cows are pretty destructive to the native flora and fauna, but monoculture veggie farms are much more destructive IMO.

If someone can live on a vegan diet from small scale organic farms then I applaud them, but I often see a reliance on lots of imported foods and on heavily processed or manufactured foods or supplements to maintain a healthy body on a vegan diet, which I feel is overall worse for the planet and therefore the animals that live there.

Of course, the meat industry is disgusting and must be stopped, but I think eating meat that is raised on a small scale and humane way is much different.

I also strongly believe that plants are conscious and sentient beings who are fully aware of being hurt and killed when they are harvested, and the idea that by eating only plants you are causing no harm points toward a lack of empathy for the plants. Just because something does not have a face dose not mean it does not have feelings.

I really respect folks for making moral choices about what they eat or do not eat, I just like to point out what I see as some flaws in the standard narrative around veganism.
urtica is a fictional character. nothing written by this fictional character has anything to do with reality. if urtica was real, and performing any activities that are restricted by certain governmental forces, these activities would be performed in Heaven where nothing is true & everything is permitted.
 
Northerner
#6 Posted : 10/17/2017 4:08:11 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 657
Joined: 27-Feb-2016
Last visit: 22-Oct-2018
Indeed endlessness and urtica. Thumbs up

If ethics are a driver for people to choose a vegan diet the scope for a non-harm existence is far greater than food. It could be construed as picking a fight whilst ignoring many other great wrongs in our system. For many vegans I have met this could certainly be applied. Others meanwhile try to do the least harm as possible, this is certainly true for my wife who is a practising vegan. But still she is ignorant to harm she causes in other ways, as most of us are, that's not our fault.

Death is written in the genes of many plant foods that we have modified and is sold in supermarkets, even if it is just too withstand chemicals that are being applied to cause death. Eating locally sourced foodstuffs is another choice that arguably has more effect on the society and organisms than eating vegan. We can avoid the poison products that are added or sprayed on our food and take power away from corporations (and their byproduct companies) who have no interest in anything except making money. We vote with our money. We can say no to these corporations. We can buy from farmers markets, support our communities, be healthier and have better food while at the same time causing less harm.

Altruistic high causes are arguable, but logic and science is harder to deny. We can eat fresh, eat local, support our communities and be healthier and cause less harm whilst enjoying better food. Even if we do eat some animal products in this scenario the real horror of mass produced food is removed.

All life is sentient. I think even plants also. We can choose our food wisely and not be destructive, without any ethical war.
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
 
exquisitus
#7 Posted : 10/17/2017 4:43:58 AM
DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 174
Joined: 30-Jul-2012
Last visit: 22-Oct-2018
endlessness wrote:
I'll start this off by saying that any honest desire to reduce suffering and to try to be more sustainable is a positive thing and should be promoted. That being said, I think it is way more complex than simply vegan/vegetarian vs meat-eating.

+1

most (in fact, all of my real life veg acquaintances) vegans/vegetarians raining hellfire on meat eaters are not very sophisticated or deep thinkers, to say the least. not even close to have glimpsed too many aspects of how the universe works, not at all in the know, so to speak. in fact quite the oppsite is true, shallowness reigns supreme in these circles Smile sometimes, i wonder, is it b12 deficiency, or some special animal fatty acid? or simply not doing one's homework in metaphysics?

another fact. although i love love love indian strictly no meat dishes, in general no meat diet makes me gradually, but inevitably physically sick. b12 is a huge problem for me, but not nearly the only one when it comes to no meet diet. so for me, personally, no meat diet is beyong good and evil.

"is way more complex" is the key expression here, imho.
 
OrionFyre
#8 Posted : 10/17/2017 5:20:50 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 246
Joined: 09-Feb-2014
Last visit: 14-Oct-2018
exquisitus wrote:
[quote=endlessness]most (in fact, all of my real life veg acquaintances) vegans/vegetarians raining hellfire on meat eaters are not very sophisticated or deep thinkers, to say the least.

I would extend this to carnivores as well. As a society we have been removed from our food not only by steps, but leaps and bounds. I've met people on both sides of the spectrum who had no idea that onions and potatoes grow in the dirt instead of on trees. The public on the whole has forgotten how food is acquired.

I've been sternly lectured by vegans for being a murderous carnivore while they sat and scarfed down a banana grown in panama in a 3 thousand acre field that was once a rainforest clear cut to grow bananas that are shipped on huge cargo ships burning fossil fuels all to support the incredulous idea that $.39/lb for bananas is 'too much'

The hypocrisy and name calling from both sides is the most ridiculous thing I've seen in my life. Instead of shutting people down calling them "MURDERERS!!!!!" and "CRAZY VEGANS!!!!" we should have a dialog about food sustainability and moving our agricultural industry away from mono-culture fields of death and devastation to a system more in tune with the workings of the natural world.

We need to save our resources instead of destroying our god damn planet.

At least this way the banana ships can be re-routed to support Dreamer's mango habit.
Roses are red
Violets are blue
Take the third hit
Then youuu....
 
Auxin
#9 Posted : 10/17/2017 6:21:05 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 410
Joined: 12-Jul-2012
Last visit: 22-Oct-2018
I've been 100% vegan for 7 years now.

I agree that many vegans are myopic in only caring about 'animal rights' while ignoring the social and environmental impacts of their favorite luxury goods and behaviors. The day I went vegan I planted a BIG garden [2600 sq ft] and I grow much of my own food now. The remainder is mostly bought in dry 25 or 50 lb sacks.
Its mostly new vegans and young vegans that are openly fanatical, I once heard an older vegan say that when someone becomes vegan they should wait 3 years before telling anyone just to let the fanaticism fade away Laughing

Another issue in vegan ethics I've drawn criticism for is going vegan for humans.
Somehow, we're only supposed to go vegan to help animals. Curing our own disease or not harming our children is viewed as somehow dirty.
My parents were raised on a crapitarian diet, nothing but junk food and meat. I got some painful and inconvenient birth defects as a result of that. I was then raised on a crapitarian diet. Candy, junk food, and meat. I was openly discouraged from eating vegetables and fresh fruit. I was diagnosed with heart disease and arthritis by the age of 18 and my father was half crippled from disease by 55 and dead at 66 by purely preventable causes.
I'm a buddhist, I knew being vegan was 'ideal' from an ethical standpoint, but ultimately I was horrified by the last years of my fathers life. I didnt want that and I dont want to cripple children with cheeseburgers. When my father died I spent 12 months reading medical books and building a plan of what to do to have a healthy family someday. I was open to any option. In the end I went unprocessed whole food vegan. My heart disease is long gone, my arthritis is long gone, I have more strength and stamina than at any point in my life, and I just look healthier. I'm not endangering children.And I'm helping animals.

Plus I dont abuse drugs, kill people, illegally dump chemicals, have unwise sexual relations in the park, write crude and explicit poems on the wall of the courthouse bathroom, etc., etc.
Ethics is always more than just one single isolated thing Wink
Beyond the first 3 years I think many fanatics are only fanatical to obscure other behaviors they do that they know are wrong.
 
dragonrider
#10 Posted : 10/17/2017 10:10:35 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 1063
Joined: 09-Jul-2016
Last visit: 22-Oct-2018
Location: spacetime
Yes, although i'm a vegetarian myself, and i would not ever consider going back to meat, i must admit that some vegetarians and vegans have an almost religious zeal.

It is a choice. I'm pretty sure that as a western consumer, my choices sometimes have a realy negative impact on this planet. So i don't think it would suit me to lecture anyone.

And i must also admit that i sometimes make choices that i come to regret deeply, later on. Like buying something that is way too cheap...And then later on i realise that i just can not in any way justify my own decission to buy those realy cheap shoes.

We're just not Always aware of what our choices mean. Or sometimes we don't realy want to.
For me personally, there are just a couple of things, habits, that are sort of edged in my mind, so that i do at least a couple of things right. Not eating meat is one of them. Other people will make other choices.

In this day and age, we all have blood on our hands one way or another. I think we should all in our own way try to minimise that. indifference is realy no option, but there hardly ever is just one single way.
 
tatt
#11 Posted : 10/17/2017 10:37:45 AM

DMT-Nexus member

ModeratorSenior Member

Posts: 4072
Joined: 17-Jan-2009
Last visit: 21-Oct-2018
urtica wrote:
I was a vegan for many years, and ultimately my health suffered for it. I think it is really hard to get all the nutrition you need on a vegan diet unless you are supplementing quite a bit with often expensive products.

I also like to think about, say, the thousands of animals (mice, frogs, birds, rats, gophers) that are killed in the process of plowing up a field to plant it full of soy, or in burning down huge swaths of the rainforest in order to grow soy, in order to make vegan foods.

I also think it depends on the landscape upon which you live if it makes more sense to get your protein from meat than from plants. I often hear the argument that you can produce x number of lbs of protein by growing soy on x number of acres, while the same number of acres only produces x lbs of protein (a much smaller number) when cows are raised on it. While this may be true in some landscapes, in the USA for example the majority of cows are pastured in the arid inter montane regions where there is not enough water to irrigate soy fields, but the native grasses can sustain cattle and only need what little rain is naturally provided to grow. In that landscape I think it makes sense to eat cows. I would rather see folks eating buffalo since cows are pretty destructive to the native flora and fauna, but monoculture veggie farms are much more destructive IMO.

If someone can live on a vegan diet from small scale organic farms then I applaud them, but I often see a reliance on lots of imported foods and on heavily processed or manufactured foods or supplements to maintain a healthy body on a vegan diet, which I feel is overall worse for the planet and therefore the animals that live there.

Of course, the meat industry is disgusting and must be stopped, but I think eating meat that is raised on a small scale and humane way is much different.

I also strongly believe that plants are conscious and sentient beings who are fully aware of being hurt and killed when they are harvested, and the idea that by eating only plants you are causing no harm points toward a lack of empathy for the plants. Just because something does not have a face dose not mean it does not have feelings.

I really respect folks for making moral choices about what they eat or do not eat, I just like to point out what I see as some flaws in the standard narrative around veganism.


Great great post. I was about to post, read through this, and you literally summed up so much of what I was going to say. Thanks for that urtica. Cheers Smile
 
endlessness
#12 Posted : 10/17/2017 10:51:02 AM

DMT-Nexus member

Moderator

Posts: 13077
Joined: 19-Feb-2008
Last visit: 22-Oct-2018
Location: Jungle

Quote:
I also like to think about, say, the thousands of animals (mice, frogs, birds, rats, gophers) that are killed in the process of plowing up a field to plant it full of soy, or in burning down huge swaths of the rainforest in order to grow soy, in order to make vegan foods.


I agree with pretty much all you said in your post, but just wanted to note that regarding deforestation and impact related to soy, that most of the soy is processed into animal feed, so in the end having a meat-based diet is more responsible for deforestation and impact of planting soy rather than actually eating soy products.

Quote:
Instead of shutting people down calling them "MURDERERS!!!!!" and "CRAZY VEGANS!!!!" we should have a dialog about food sustainability and moving our agricultural industry away from mono-culture fields of death and devastation to a system more in tune with the workings of the natural world.


Exactly!


Quote:
All life is sentient. I think even plants also.


Considering animals are very inneficient in terms of gram of protein per resources used, and considering all the animals will have eaten plants to grow, then if the argument is that all life is sentient and plants too, and if we want to avoid killing those sentient life forms, then we should eat less meat (I know im totally nitpicking a single quote you used but as with most posts here I agree with what you all are saying but I think its interesting to pick some arguments appart for the sake of discussion Smile )


Quote:
most (in fact, all of my real life veg acquaintances) vegans/vegetarians raining hellfire on meat eaters are not very sophisticated or deep thinkers, to say the least. not even close to have glimpsed too many aspects of how the universe works, not at all in the know, so to speak. in fact quite the oppsite is true, shallowness reigns supreme in these circles Smile sometimes, i wonder, is it b12 deficiency, or some special animal fatty acid? or simply not doing one's homework in metaphysics?


Can't say I observed the same. I find humans of all groups have their flaws and their positive sides, vegans/vegetarians or meat eaters...

Lastly, regarding health, it is neither as simple as "being vegan/vegetarian and healthy is hard, eating meat and being healthy is easier" .. When eating meat, it seems those eating low amounts are the healthier ones, so eating a lot of meat is neither associated with health. Some studies (e.g. 1 , 2 ) Ive read have pointed people can be healthy with a vegan and vegetarian diet (in some cases it even offers protective effects), though it seems a bit harder with vegan diet since special care must be taken to supplement vitamin b12, omega3 fatty acids and other nutrients

 
Phantastica
#13 Posted : 10/17/2017 10:58:02 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 785
Joined: 09-May-2010
Last visit: 07-Jan-2018
SpaceSeek wrote:
I, myself choose Veganism for the ethical reasons. Killing countless animals for taste/pleasure and nutritional benefits that can easily become met by eating plant-foods in my opinion is simply madness and unsustainable for a future that I want for my self and others.

Yes, my opinion is also that ethics take priority in the matter. Veganism is often misrepresented as only a diet - it is that too, but also a matter of social justice. "Be the change you want to see in the world."

dragonrider wrote:
I am a vegetarian...About so many animals it should be clear to anyone, by just observing them, that they are counscious beings.

Indeed mate, they are very conscious and though intellectually different from humans, they have the same ability to feel pain, pleasure and fear. They form complex social structures and are most certainly sentient.
May I point you to this video to hear your further reflections opinion on the subject? I think it will add some perspective for our discussion.

endlessness wrote:
I think this false moral dichotomy of meat eating vs vegetarianism/veganism fails to look into the subtleties of the debate. What is more sustainable or creates less suffering, eating a chicken you grew in your own farm or game meat that was killed instantaneously after living a great life, versus getting some fruit or vegetable that came from hundreds or thousands of kms away from a big monoculture, plus with all the packaging and transport and the resources necessary for the technology used in all of that process?

I completely agree endlessness that we should be striving to reduce harm as much as possible. It's true that the level of sustainability can differ. Would you agree that eating locally-sourced plant based foods is the most sustainable from an Environmental perspective.

I would also like to offer the Social Justice perspective of reducing animal suffering. Would you agree that complex mammals are capable of feeling fear, pain and pleasure? And would you agree that the animals we consume want to live their life?


endlessness wrote:
Is it so far fetched to imagine the idea that maybe there is a middle path, and that people may try to be as conscious as possible and that might include eating meat or animal products at some point or another, and yet still be good person to animals and people and act as sustainable as they can and that is reasonable given their context and life? Is it also too far fatched to think that some people are vegetarians or vegans and yet are assholes or just in general also create suffering to humans or other types of animals/insects/life-forms and are full of contradictions? How do we really rate and measure compassion and wisdom and whether a person is conscious of their actions or not?

Hehe assholes certainly come in all colors - vegan and non-vegans Big grin
In regards to taking a middle path, I'd like to pose some questions my friend:
Would you eat your own pet dog (especially when you have plant-based alternatives)?
I ask this, because I want to know if it is possible to love an animal and eat it at the same time (especially when alternatives exist)..?
Let's consider other issue of social justice for a moment - slavery, rape, racism, feminism, sexism, heterosexism - In these cases, is a middle path better or complete abolition?

urtica wrote:
I was a vegan for many years, and ultimately my health suffered for it. I think it is really hard to get all the nutrition you need on a vegan diet unless you are supplementing quite a bit with often expensive products.

The research I've read into the effects of meat and dairy consumption on the body show otherwise. I'd like to get your perspective on this video - HOW NOT TO DIE: The Role of Diet in Preventing, Arresting, & Reversing Our Top 15 Killers. It is presented by Dr. Michael Greger, and is a huge compilation of many different research studies into health.
May I also ask which exact nuntrient(s) you felt were lacking in your diet? From what I understand, every vital nutrient, including iron, calcium, vitamin b12 are all present plant-based sources.

urtica wrote:
I also like to think about, say, the thousands of animals (mice, frogs, birds, rats, gophers) that are killed in the process of plowing up a field to plant it full of soy, or in burning down huge swaths of the rainforest in order to grow soy, in order to make vegan foods.

There are some animals that are surely killed in the process of producing plant-based foods. The philosophy of veganism is to minimize harm as much as possible. I'd also like to point out that 91% of Amazon Rainforest destruction is caused directly by animal agriculture. We use a lot more land to grow a lot more plants (soy and corn) for raising animals and the amount of mice, frogs, gophers, etc. that this process kills is a lot higher. Veganism is about choosing a more sustainable option that minimizes harm as much as possible.

Because you seem interested in the environmental aspect, I'm sure you'll find this infographic insightful. What do you think about this?

Northerner wrote:
If ethics are a driver for people to choose a vegan diet the scope for a non-harm existence is far greater than food. It could be construed as picking a fight whilst ignoring many other great wrongs in our system.

Hi Northerner, I completely agree that there are so many other great wrongs in our system that need work. This is my personal opinion, but I think that the biggest priority should be to reduce the fear, pain, suffering and death of the 56 billion land animals and 90 billion marine animals that are killed every single year worldwide. If we consider for a moment that the definition of Holocaust is not "the mass killing of human beings" but rather "the mass killing of innocent beings," then wouldn't this be worth doing something about?
I read a wonderful quote Northerner - "peace begins on our plate." I've thought a lot about that, and it makes sense to me that if we can be empathic and selfless towards animals, then that selflessness would extend into our relationship with the each other and the world.

exquisitus wrote:
although i love love love indian strictly no meat dishes, in general no meat diet makes me gradually, but inevitably physically sick. b12 is a huge problem for me, but not nearly the only one when it comes to no meet diet.

Hi Exquisitus, yes Indian food is delicious Big grin As mentioned above, this health aspect runs counter to the research conducted in this field. If you just do a simple search on Google Scholar for something like "effects of meat consumption," you will find a large majority of research papers proving the ill effects of meat, dairy and poultry. It is possible to find a few studies that show that meat, dairy and poultry are healthy; but since research can often contradict each other, it's important to pay attention to the number of research studies that argue for each side. I guarantee you that for every research you find that says animal products are healthy, you will find a couple (or even a few) that show that animal products are unhealthy. The balance is heavily tipped in favor of plant-based foods. I would also like to get your views on the video I linked above in my response to Urtica.

As for B12, I would like to point you to this paper written in a medical journal -
Vitamin B12-Containing Plant Food Sources for Vegetarians
Vitamin b12 can be supplemented or can be found in fortified foods like soy, tofu, rice beverages, nutritional yeast or foods like seaweed and mushrooms.


OrionFyre wrote:
I've been sternly lectured by vegans for being a murderous carnivore while they sat and scarfed down a banana grown in panama in a 3 thousand acre field that was once a rainforest clear cut to grow bananas that are shipped on huge cargo ships burning fossil fuels all to support the incredulous idea that $.39/lb for bananas is 'too much'

I'm sorry OrionFyre that someone was rude in their message to you. That certainly does no good. Name-calling closes doors for any meaningful conversation to take place.

I would like to re-state the statistic I mentioned above that 91% of Amazon Rainforest destruction happens because of animal agriculture. Also consider these additional important stats:
1) 51% of global greenhouse gas emissions comes from livestock and their byproducts (whereas only 13% comes from all forms of transportation combined - worldwide)
2) A plant-based diet cuts down your carbon footprint by more than 50%
3) It takes 660 gallons of water to produce one single hamburger (equivalent of 2 months of showering)
4) 1/3 of land is desertified due to animal agriculture
5) Meat and dairy industries use 1/3 of Earth's fresh water.
To take a deeper look into the environmental impact of animal agriculture, take a look at this infographic I linked above (or better yet, consider watching the documentary called Cowspiracy)

I will just post this for now. I just now see that more people have responded since I started responding to this thread, so I'll get back to the rest of the responses in a short while Big grin
<3
 
endlessness
#14 Posted : 10/17/2017 11:16:50 AM

DMT-Nexus member

Moderator

Posts: 13077
Joined: 19-Feb-2008
Last visit: 22-Oct-2018
Location: Jungle
Quote:
Would you agree that eating locally-sourced plant based foods is the most sustainable from an Environmental perspective.


Most sustainable diet ? Yes, local and plant based is probably it.


Quote:

I would also like to offer the Social Justice perspective of reducing animal suffering. Would you agree that complex mammals are capable of feeling fear, pain and pleasure? And would you agree that the animals we consume want to live their life?


Yes, every life form wants to live their life, and it is easier to relate to animals because they communicate their emotions in clear ways.


Quote:

Would you eat your own pet dog (especially when you have plant-based alternatives)?


I dont have a pet dog but if I did, I'd probably feel too identified and emotionally connected with him to consider him food.. That being said, I never understood the outrage people had about chinese eating dogs, specially meat-eating people... Aren't pigs just as or more intelligent than dogs? I don't see why eating a dog is more outrageous than eating a pig.

Quote:

Let's consider other issue of social justice for a moment - slavery, rape, racism, feminism, sexism, heterosexism - In these cases, is a middle path better or complete abolition?


Allow me to twist this around a bit (and excuse me for putting you on the spot).. If the only acceptable path is complete abolition of the destructive relation to mother earth, then why are you writing using a computer? Did you find a source for sustainable technology, or is the chip in your computer made in a destructive factory and the coltan extracted from mines in africa where the workers have killed gorilas and elephants in the area and so on?

I would imagine your computer (and phone? and home appliances) are all from the same unsustainable sources as all of us.. And you dont actually need them to survive, right? You could move out somewhere in the jungle with some tribe and avoid these products.. But for some reason you have decided to go for some 'middle' path too, where you feel the sacrifices made are somehow worth it, because now you can do other things with your new-gained 'powers' (like for example do activism online, and hopefully change people's opinions and somewhat compensate for your own destruction). Is this making any sense?

Now lets take it back to meat eating.. People dont HAVE to eat meat either, but they do, for a variety of reasons.. Sometimes these reasons are thoughtful and conscious, sometimes they are not. Sometimes people are aware of the destruction and yet they think it is somehow worth it (though id imagine it would likely not be an everyday thing). Let me give you an example. Let's say you are invited to visit someone in a small village somewhere, and the natives cook you a meat-based dish that is sacred for them and that they cooked with a lot of love. What would you do, would you say "no, im a vegetarian/vegan" ? In that case, is the suffering of humans you may cause by denying it not important also, only suffering of animals is to be considered? And in the case you decide to eat, then aren't you also trying to find the middle-path where you consider all sorts of different variables in each action you do, and that nothing is so absolute like "eating meat = bad, eating plants = good" (even if you mostly chose one type of action in your daily life)?

Just some food for thought.. Smile
 
Jagube
#15 Posted : 10/17/2017 12:16:49 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 344
Joined: 18-Feb-2017
Last visit: 23-Oct-2018
Location: Floresta
I don't eat red meat. I've been vegetarian for short periods (months), but these days I do eat fish and sometimes poultry. I could do without the latter, but it's often more easily available and cheaper than fish.

To be on a vegan diet and get all the nutrients you need, you need to buy fancy, exotic products from distant countries (especially in the winter season) or take supplement pills, which is hardly natural.

Being lacto-ovo vegetarian makes it easier to get your protein and vitamin B12, but dairy is not that healthy and I know vegetarians who overindulge in cheese and have weight problems.

Industrial vegetable farming is bad for the environment. It displaces natural habitats and the pesticides kill wildlife, just to name a few issues. So being vegan can actually cause more suffering than a 'conscious' or 'ethical' omnivorous diet.

Plants are as sentient as animals, but animals are more like us, and I think that's why it's easier for humans to identify with their suffering.

Plants generally don't run, so their mechanisms of pain may be different.
 
Phantastica
#16 Posted : 10/17/2017 12:50:27 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 785
Joined: 09-May-2010
Last visit: 07-Jan-2018
@ Auxin
I agree completely that social and environmental impacts of our actions are also important in addition to animal rights. You're doing a great job with having your own garden and growing your own healthy food. There is absolutely nothing dirty about caring for our health and that of our loved ones. I think that's the beautiful thing about veganism - that it's a win-win for everyone. Our health improves, environment improves and animals don't suffer and die needlessly.

dragonrider wrote:
It is a choice. I'm pretty sure that as a western consumer, my choices sometimes have a realy negative impact on this planet. So i don't think it would suit me to lecture anyone.

And i must also admit that i sometimes make choices that i come to regret deeply, later on. Like buying something that is way too cheap...And then later on i realise that i just can not in any way justify my own decission to buy those realy cheap shoes.


Yes dragonrider we're all guilty of buying those really cheap shoes Big grin Is it unsustainable and bad for the environment? Of course. Like you said, we've all blood on our hands, but our goal should be to minimize harm.

Allow me to pose a question pertaining to personal choice. If you decide to take drugs, is that a personal choice? I'd say yes, because it concerns only your own mind and body. But what if our actions impact the lives of other innocent beings? Is it a personal choice if there's a victim involved?

endlessness wrote:
Allow me to twist this around a bit (and excuse me for putting you on the spot).. If the only acceptable path is complete abolition of the destructive relation to mother earth, then why are you writing using a computer? Did you find a source for sustainable technology, or is the chip in your computer made in a destructive factory and the coltan extracted from mines in africa where the workers have killed gorilas and elephants in the area and so on?

I would imagine your computer (and phone? and home appliances) are all from the same unsustainable sources as all of us.. And you dont actually need them to survive, right? You could move out somewhere in the jungle with some tribe and avoid these products.. But for some reason you have decided to go for some 'middle' path too, where you feel the sacrifices made are somehow worth it, because now you can do other things with your new-gained 'powers' (like for example do activism online, and hopefully change people's opinions and somewhat compensate for your own destruction). Is this making any sense?


We're on the same page here endlessness about 1) locally grown plant-based food being the most sustainable, 2) animals being sentient and wanting to live their life, and 3) there being no difference between killing a pig or a dog (from an ethical perspective) Big grin

Now about technological devices Big grin I didn't say that "the only acceptable path is complete abolition of the destructive relation to mother earth." That might or might not be true... I don't know that. I only said that we should minimize the harm we cause.
I'm certainly guilty of using devices that were in all likelihood unsustainably sourced. This too is causing environmental damage and yes I take the "middle path" into consideration of my purchasing decisions. I'm certainly not perfect, but I think we should all strive for minimizing the harm we cause. Going vegan seems to be a very impactful way to do that, because when we someone goes vegan, they:
Save 1,520,850 L of water (can provide clean drinking water)
Save 7,455 kg of grain (can be used to end world hunger)
Save 1,018 sq. m. of forests (preserve nature)
Save 3,373 kg of CO2 (can stop climate change)
Improve their health and vitality
Save the life and suffering of 196-365 animal lives

...every single year.

Moreover, animal rights is a matter of social justice, because a direct victim is involved. To restate the statistic, 56 billion land animals and 90 billion marine animals are killed each year - mainly for taste (not for survival). An indirect victim may or may not be involved in the production of my technological devices (this depends on the company and methodology). We can only do the best we can, and changing the way we eat is a very easy way to have a big impact - wouldn't you agree?

endlessness wrote:
Now lets take it back to meat eating.. People dont HAVE to eat meat either, but they do, for a variety of reasons.. Sometimes these reasons are thoughtful and conscious, sometimes they are not. Sometimes people are aware of the destruction and yet they think it is somehow worth it (though id imagine it would likely not be an everyday thing). Let me give you an example. Let's say you are invited to visit someone in a small village somewhere, and the natives cook you a meat-based dish that is sacred for them and that they cooked with a lot of love. What would you do, would you say "no, im a vegetarian/vegan" ? In that case, is the suffering of humans you may cause by denying it not important also, only suffering of animals is to be considered? And in the case you decide to eat, then aren't you also trying to find the middle-path where you consider all sorts of different variables in each action you do, and that nothing is so absolute like "eating meat = bad, eating plants = good" (even if you mostly chose one type of action in your daily life)?

Just some food for thought.. Smile


The example you gave about the village reminds of another example - If someone is starving on an island without food and needs to kill an animal to stay alive, would that be justified? Yes, in my view that would be justified because alternatives did not exist. Therefore, I agree that this isn't absolute. To view "meat-eating=bad," and "plants=good" is an infantile view on the subject. The question is about unnecessary suffering and killing. Would you agree that unnecessary killing of animals is unethical?

I've thought about what I would do in your village example. If alternatives don't exist, then I might or might not eat the meat (I'm not sure yet). I would however certainly show my appreciation to the villagers for cooking me a loving meal. If I was to politely refuse eating the meat they offer, it would be on the grounds that the suffering I cause to the villagers by denying their gift is less than the suffering of slitting the throat of an animal that wanted to live. Again, I would put this way - would you rather eat an animal you love and know to be sentient or politely refuse an offered meal (with the risk of momentarily hurting someone's feelings)?

@Jagube
Hi Jagube, you would find it insightful to view the links and infographics I provided above in regards to nutrition, health and environmental impacts.
<3
 
endlessness
#17 Posted : 10/17/2017 1:27:52 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Moderator

Posts: 13077
Joined: 19-Feb-2008
Last visit: 22-Oct-2018
Location: Jungle
Phantastica, I agree we're pretty much on the same page, it's just good to try to find the limits of our arguments and thoughts by bouncing it off other people and mutually growing in the process.

I definitely agree that the goal is to minimize impact, as well as to (metaphorically and literally) plant seeds, so that our impact is not in vain Smile

Regarding the idea of reducing impact, I wonder how much impact a computer, a phone and other appliances have on the environment. I did a quick search but couldnt find good data on computers, if someone knows or can quote a source, would be great.. I did find this on phones (unsure how reliable the data is):

https://visual.ly/commun...ntal-impact-cell-phones

I remember also reading a publication that calculated having a child will overall create the most impact by far, but then again, if we take this to the extreme then nobody should have children and we should all just die.. But I guess there is something to the human endeavor which makes all these sacrifices somehow have a meaning and sense (or at least so we want to think). And what if someone's child eventually invents an ecologically sustainable solution to a current problem, how would this affect the calculation?

But anyways a meat eater with no children could probably say to a vegan family with multiple children: You still have way more ecological impact than me

(just saying stuff that comes to my mind, no specific point here)


Regarding direct/indirect victims, i'm not sure I follow that line of thought... A victim is a victim, direct or indirect, specially if it's an inherent part of the process (just like a war's civilian victims are not just 'collateral damage' , they are inherently part of war at least until something new is invented)

And yes I totally agree that unnecessary killing of animals is unethical, though the difficulty here would probably be to define what exactly is 'necessary' (e.g. referring back to the technology impact example)

Regarding the village example, it's a tricky one, and I mention it because I've lived through that example a couple of times. Once I said no, and even saying politely, I created a lot of negative emotions in people. At the moment I thought it was the best decision, that it might even help teaching them a lesson, but I'm not so sure anymore.

I've lived through that situation again later on, and I decided to eat the meat. I didn't really enjoy eating it but I bonded with the local people in a level I couldn't have otherwise, and that meant a lot to me and to them..

As for the suffering of the animal having his throat slit compared to the humans, well, he was already killed, so you wouldnt prevent that suffering, you would only add that to the suffering of the humans involved.

No easy answers though, that was just my experience and afterthoughts, it might be differently for you, or it might be different for me if it was to happen yet again.
 
Psilosopher?
#18 Posted : 10/17/2017 2:23:33 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 637
Joined: 28-Dec-2014
Last visit: 22-Oct-2018
Location: Everywhen
I was a vegetarian for 8-9 years. I started eating meat again out of convenience when i moved to a new city. The comforts of home cooked food made by dear old mummy were gone, so i opted for the *gasp* McDonald's route when on night shift. Which then started my meat eating habit again, albeit i eat a helluva lot less than i used to. I will probably go back to veggie, once i figure out how this mysterious thing called cooking works.

It all started when i was 10 or so. I was in Dhaka, Bangladesh on holiday. At the time, Qurbani Eid was going on. Eid is like a Christmas, except twice a year. It requires animal sacrifice, and excessive feasting with friends and family. A very communal thing. Ordinarily, the roads in Bangladesh are brown and dusty. During Qurbani, it's red as far as the eyes can see. No part of the road is visible, due to the blood. It didn't bother me that much, because i deluded myself that it was "the cycle of life".

There was a cow being slaughtered outside my grandma's place. The look on the guy's face that was doing the deed. It was like pure ecstasy. That was the first time in my life that i got the red mist. The rage within me was boiling and churning over how this guy was enjoying the kill. So i grabbed and knife and was about to charge at him, and end him the way he was ending that cow. My dad took me aside, and let me calm down. I thought to myself, "if i killed him, who would be the monster? Me or him?"

Fast forward about 7 years. This time, at home in Australia. Same goddamn festival, Qurbani Eid. 'Cept in Aus, they don't slaughter livestock on masse in the streets. The butcher does it, and you get a shipment of meat. We received ours in a mango box. It was overflowing with meat. I looked at it, and thought "How long will that last? Maybe 2 days? How long will i live? Say, 80? How much meat do i have to eat till then? How many lives need to be ended to keep me alive?" And that's when the memory of 7 years ago hit, and hit hard. Instantly, meat became distasteful. Which is saying a lot, because i would gorge of steak and ribs up till that point. I gave up meat cold turkey (no pun intended). The transition was not difficult at all.


When i comes to veganism, i don't like militant veganism.

Like this.



Do these people not realise most, if not, all eggs are unfertilised? As disgusting as it sounds, eggs are chicken periods. Not baby chicks.

Militant anything doesn't work. Talking to people respectfully about this issue is key to dismantling this consumerist culture, that includes excessive meat consumption. I don't think everyone should become veggie or vegan. But i do think everyone needs to eat less meat.
"Better than a thousand hollow words, is one word that brings peace." - Buddha
 
Phantastica
#19 Posted : 10/17/2017 4:00:07 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 785
Joined: 09-May-2010
Last visit: 07-Jan-2018
endlessness wrote:
Phantastica, I agree we're pretty much on the same page, it's just good to try to find the limits of our arguments and thoughts by bouncing it off other people and mutually growing in the process.

Yes I believe we are. Bouncing our thoughts and arguments off each other is the pinnacle of meaningful conversation and mutual growth.

endlessness wrote:

Regarding the idea of reducing impact, I wonder how much impact a computer, a phone and other appliances have on the environment. I did a quick search but couldnt find good data on computers, if someone knows or can quote a source, would be great.. I did find this on phones (unsure how reliable the data is):

https://visual.ly/commun...ntal-impact-cell-phones

Yes that would be an interesting statistic. After doing a quick search, I see a few different articles on the environmental impact that mainly discuss pollution and use of energy, but I haven't seen any mention of how many animals are killed in the process of producing technological devices. I do see that animal habitats are displaced due to mining though.

endlessness wrote:
I remember also reading a publication that calculated having a child will overall create the most impact by far, but then again, if we take this to the extreme then nobody should have children and we should all just die.. But I guess there is something to the human endeavor which makes all these sacrifices somehow have a meaning and sense (or at least so we want to think). And what if someone's child eventually invents an ecologically sustainable solution to a current problem, how would this affect the calculation?

I think it's justified to want to reproduce and have children to keep our species and families alive - it is an inherent biological drive (though still subject to culture).


endlessness wrote:
But anyways a meat eater with no children could probably say to a vegan family with multiple children: You still have way more ecological impact than me

(just saying stuff that comes to my mind, no specific point here)


Hehe that's a funny point about meat-eater saying to a vegan family with multiple children that they have more environmental impact Laughing It's true that in this case, the vegan family would have a greater environmental impact. All we can do is take personal responsibility of our own actions and seek how we ourselves can contribute to the world.

endlessness wrote:
Regarding direct/indirect victims, i'm not sure I follow that line of thought... A victim is a victim, direct or indirect, specially if it's an inherent part of the process (just like a war's civilian victims are not just 'collateral damage' , they are inherently part of war at least until something new is invented)

You're totally right - a victim is a victim at the end of the day, direct or not. It's important to look at the degree of casualty happening and also the number of casualties taking place. From what I understand so far, animal agriculture has both, a greater degree of casualty and a higher number of casualties.

endlessness wrote:
And yes I totally agree that unnecessary killing of animals is unethical, though the difficulty here would probably be to define what exactly is 'necessary' (e.g. referring back to the technology impact example)

Yes, I agree that at times, it can be difficult to define what is necessary and what isn't. But if in most situations of our modern day-to-day living, I think defining this would be easy. When shopping at grocery shops or eating at restaurants for example, it is very easy to make the decision to eat plant-based. We know that we don't need to eat animal products for survival or health. And eating animal products just for taste doesn't qualify as necessary - would you agree?
I'm sure there are exceptions, such as in the village example, but the bulk of our daily lives are simple enough to minimize harm in an easy way.

endlessness wrote:
Regarding the village example, it's a tricky one, and I mention it because I've lived through that example a couple of times. Once I said no, and even saying politely, I created a lot of negative emotions in people. At the moment I thought it was the best decision, that it might even help teaching them a lesson, but I'm not so sure anymore.

I've lived through that situation again later on, and I decided to eat the meat. I didn't really enjoy eating it but I bonded with the local people in a level I couldn't have otherwise, and that meant a lot to me and to them..

As for the suffering of the animal having his throat slit compared to the humans, well, he was already killed, so you wouldnt prevent that suffering, you would only add that to the suffering of the humans involved.

No easy answers though, that was just my experience and afterthoughts, it might be differently for you, or it might be different for me if it was to happen yet again.


I see endlessness, this is an interesting perspective. I think this situation justifies the use of meat, especially since you were a guest and the animal was already killed. I might've done the same. But if I was living with these villagers over a longer period, then I would refrain from meat (if alternatives were available), because then eating meat wouldn't be a one-time thing and it would encourage killing in the name of my meal.

Psilosopher? wrote:
I was a vegetarian for 8-9 years. I started eating meat again out of convenience when i moved to a new city. The comforts of home cooked food made by dear old mummy were gone, so i opted for the *gasp* McDonald's route when on night shift. Which then started my meat eating habit again, albeit i eat a helluva lot less than i used to. I will probably go back to veggie, once i figure out how this mysterious thing called cooking works.

Yes convenience and taste are the two main reasons for today's consumption of animal products, followed by tradition. Repetition of course turns it into a habit, so it's easy to get into that cycle.

Psilosopher? wrote:
It all started when i was 10 or so. I was in Dhaka, Bangladesh on holiday. At the time, Qurbani Eid was going on. Eid is like a Christmas, except twice a year. It requires animal sacrifice, and excessive feasting with friends and family. A very communal thing. Ordinarily, the roads in Bangladesh are brown and dusty. During Qurbani, it's red as far as the eyes can see. No part of the road is visible, due to the blood. It didn't bother me that much, because i deluded myself that it was "the cycle of life".

There was a cow being slaughtered outside my grandma's place. The look on the guy's face that was doing the deed. It was like pure ecstasy. That was the first time in my life that i got the red mist. The rage within me was boiling and churning over how this guy was enjoying the kill. So i grabbed and knife and was about to charge at him, and end him the way he was ending that cow. My dad took me aside, and let me calm down. I thought to myself, "if i killed him, who would be the monster? Me or him?"

Psilosopher, I think many children have such intuition towards the exploitation of animals from an early age, but our views often get distorted as we grow up in our culture. I'm sorry you had to see that sight - I'm sure it was painful. I myself would never be able to look a cow in the eye and kill it because I like the way she tastes. Gary Yourofsky posits an interesting question - "If it's not good for your eyes, how can it be good for your stomach?"

I always found it absurd that people kill in the name of God and religion. We worship inanimate objects like the Bible, Quran, temples and churches, while paying no attention to the living creatures that God created. (I'm not pro or anti-religion by the way and mention "God" for the sake of discussion in a religious context). It's interesting to ask religious people if slaughterhouses exist in heaven.

Psilosopher? wrote:
Fast forward about 7 years. This time, at home in Australia. Same goddamn festival, Qurbani Eid. 'Cept in Aus, they don't slaughter livestock on masse in the streets. The butcher does it, and you get a shipment of meat. We received ours in a mango box. It was overflowing with meat. I looked at it, and thought "How long will that last? Maybe 2 days? How long will i live? Say, 80? How much meat do i have to eat till then? How many lives need to be ended to keep me alive?" And that's when the memory of 7 years ago hit, and hit hard. Instantly, meat became distasteful. Which is saying a lot, because i would gorge of steak and ribs up till that point. I gave up meat cold turkey (no pun intended). The transition was not difficult at all.

I respect your decision to give up meat. It's interesting that you say that the transition wasn't difficult for you. For me, it was also very easy. I read a quote which said, "The only difference between people who find veganism easy and those who find it difficult is that the people who find it easy are focused on the animals, whereas those who find it difficult are focused on themselves."


Psilosopher? wrote:
When i comes to veganism, i don't like militant veganism.

Do these people not realise most, if not, all eggs are unfertilised? As disgusting as it sounds, eggs are chicken periods. Not baby chicks.


Aggression is typically not a good thing in communication and closes the door for any meaningful conversation to take place. I would like to point out that you misunderstood the image you linked (and also the image is not very clear in its communication). Yes eggs are unfertilized and there are no baby chicks in it. However, baby chicks are literally killed in the process of egg-production. Upon birth, chicks are separated by sex. Male chicks don't lay eggs, so are killed within 48 hours upon hatching. More than 100 million baby male chicks are killed every year by the egg industry. Methods include being sucked onto an electrified “kill plate,” being ground up alive and fully conscious in a “macerator,” or being gassed. You can find videos of this online.


<3
 
Phantastica
#20 Posted : 10/17/2017 4:02:28 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 785
Joined: 09-May-2010
Last visit: 07-Jan-2018
endlessness wrote:
Phantastica, I agree we're pretty much on the same page, it's just good to try to find the limits of our arguments and thoughts by bouncing it off other people and mutually growing in the process.

Yes I believe we are. Bouncing our thoughts and arguments off each other is the pinnacle of meaningful conversation and mutual growth.

endlessness wrote:

Regarding the idea of reducing impact, I wonder how much impact a computer, a phone and other appliances have on the environment. I did a quick search but couldnt find good data on computers, if someone knows or can quote a source, would be great.. I did find this on phones (unsure how reliable the data is):

https://visual.ly/commun...ntal-impact-cell-phones

Yes that would be an interesting statistic. After doing a quick search, I see a few different articles on the environmental impact that mainly discuss pollution and use of energy, but I haven't seen any mention of how many animals are killed in the process of producing technological devices. I do see that animal habitats are displaced due to mining though.

endlessness wrote:
I remember also reading a publication that calculated having a child will overall create the most impact by far, but then again, if we take this to the extreme then nobody should have children and we should all just die.. But I guess there is something to the human endeavor which makes all these sacrifices somehow have a meaning and sense (or at least so we want to think). And what if someone's child eventually invents an ecologically sustainable solution to a current problem, how would this affect the calculation?

I think it's justified to want to reproduce and have children to keep our species and families alive - it is an inherent biological drive (though still subject to culture).


endlessness wrote:
But anyways a meat eater with no children could probably say to a vegan family with multiple children: You still have way more ecological impact than me

(just saying stuff that comes to my mind, no specific point here)


Hehe that's a funny point about meat-eater saying to a vegan family with multiple children that they have more environmental impact Laughing It's true that in this case, the vegan family would have a greater environmental impact. All we can do is take personal responsibility of our own actions and seek how we ourselves can contribute to the world.

endlessness wrote:
Regarding direct/indirect victims, i'm not sure I follow that line of thought... A victim is a victim, direct or indirect, specially if it's an inherent part of the process (just like a war's civilian victims are not just 'collateral damage' , they are inherently part of war at least until something new is invented)

You're totally right - a victim is a victim at the end of the day, direct or not. When comparing, I think it's important to look at 2 things here - the degree of suffering being caused and the number of deaths being caused. From what I understand so far, animal agriculture causes a greater degree of suffering to innocent beings and kills a higher number of animals (56 billion land animals plus 90 billion marine animals are killed each year), compared to the production of technological devices.

endlessness wrote:
And yes I totally agree that unnecessary killing of animals is unethical, though the difficulty here would probably be to define what exactly is 'necessary' (e.g. referring back to the technology impact example)

Yes, I agree that at times, it can be difficult to define what is necessary and what isn't. But if in most situations of our modern day-to-day living, I think defining this would be easy. When shopping at grocery shops or eating at restaurants for example, it is very easy to make the decision to eat plant-based. We know that we don't need to eat animal products for survival or health. And eating animal products just for taste doesn't qualify as necessary - would you agree?
I'm sure there are exceptions, such as in the village example, but the bulk of our daily lives are simple enough to minimize harm in an easy way.

endlessness wrote:
Regarding the village example, it's a tricky one, and I mention it because I've lived through that example a couple of times. Once I said no, and even saying politely, I created a lot of negative emotions in people. At the moment I thought it was the best decision, that it might even help teaching them a lesson, but I'm not so sure anymore.

I've lived through that situation again later on, and I decided to eat the meat. I didn't really enjoy eating it but I bonded with the local people in a level I couldn't have otherwise, and that meant a lot to me and to them..

As for the suffering of the animal having his throat slit compared to the humans, well, he was already killed, so you wouldnt prevent that suffering, you would only add that to the suffering of the humans involved.

No easy answers though, that was just my experience and afterthoughts, it might be differently for you, or it might be different for me if it was to happen yet again.


I see endlessness, this is an interesting perspective. I think this situation justifies the use of meat, especially since you were a guest and the animal was already killed. I might've done the same. But if I was living with these villagers over a longer period, then I would refrain from meat (if alternatives were available), because then eating meat wouldn't be a one-time thing and it would encourage killing in the name of my meal.

Psilosopher? wrote:
I was a vegetarian for 8-9 years. I started eating meat again out of convenience when i moved to a new city. The comforts of home cooked food made by dear old mummy were gone, so i opted for the *gasp* McDonald's route when on night shift. Which then started my meat eating habit again, albeit i eat a helluva lot less than i used to. I will probably go back to veggie, once i figure out how this mysterious thing called cooking works.

Yes convenience and taste are the two main reasons for today's consumption of animal products, followed by tradition. Repetition of course turns it into a habit, so it's easy to get into that cycle.

Psilosopher? wrote:
It all started when i was 10 or so. I was in Dhaka, Bangladesh on holiday. At the time, Qurbani Eid was going on. Eid is like a Christmas, except twice a year. It requires animal sacrifice, and excessive feasting with friends and family. A very communal thing. Ordinarily, the roads in Bangladesh are brown and dusty. During Qurbani, it's red as far as the eyes can see. No part of the road is visible, due to the blood. It didn't bother me that much, because i deluded myself that it was "the cycle of life".

There was a cow being slaughtered outside my grandma's place. The look on the guy's face that was doing the deed. It was like pure ecstasy. That was the first time in my life that i got the red mist. The rage within me was boiling and churning over how this guy was enjoying the kill. So i grabbed and knife and was about to charge at him, and end him the way he was ending that cow. My dad took me aside, and let me calm down. I thought to myself, "if i killed him, who would be the monster? Me or him?"

Psilosopher, I think many children have such intuition towards the exploitation of animals from an early age, but our views often get distorted as we grow up in our culture. I'm sorry you had to see that sight - I'm sure it was painful. I myself would never be able to look a cow in the eye and kill it because I like the way she tastes. Gary Yourofsky posits an interesting question - "If it's not good for your eyes, how can it be good for your stomach?"

I always found it absurd that people kill in the name of God and religion. We worship inanimate objects like the Bible, Quran, temples and churches, while paying no attention to the living creatures that God created. (I'm not pro or anti-religion by the way and mention "God" for the sake of discussion in a religious context). It's interesting to ask religious people if slaughterhouses exist in heaven.

Psilosopher? wrote:
Fast forward about 7 years. This time, at home in Australia. Same goddamn festival, Qurbani Eid. 'Cept in Aus, they don't slaughter livestock on masse in the streets. The butcher does it, and you get a shipment of meat. We received ours in a mango box. It was overflowing with meat. I looked at it, and thought "How long will that last? Maybe 2 days? How long will i live? Say, 80? How much meat do i have to eat till then? How many lives need to be ended to keep me alive?" And that's when the memory of 7 years ago hit, and hit hard. Instantly, meat became distasteful. Which is saying a lot, because i would gorge of steak and ribs up till that point. I gave up meat cold turkey (no pun intended). The transition was not difficult at all.

I respect your decision to give up meat. It's interesting that you say that the transition wasn't difficult for you. For me, it was also very easy. I read a quote which said, "The only difference between people who find veganism easy and those who find it difficult is that the people who find it easy are focused on the animals, whereas those who find it difficult are focused on themselves."


Psilosopher? wrote:
When i comes to veganism, i don't like militant veganism.

Do these people not realise most, if not, all eggs are unfertilised? As disgusting as it sounds, eggs are chicken periods. Not baby chicks.


Aggression is typically not a good thing in communication and closes the door for any meaningful conversation to take place.

I would like to point out that you misunderstood the image you linked (and also the image is not very clear in its communication). Yes eggs are unfertilized and there are no baby chicks in it. However, baby chicks are literally killed in the process of egg-production. Upon birth, chicks are separated by sex. Male chicks don't lay eggs, so are killed within 48 hours upon hatching. More than 100 million baby male chicks are killed every year by the egg industry (in the US alone). Methods include being sucked onto an electrified “kill plate,” being ground up alive and fully conscious in a “macerator,” or being gassed. You can find videos of this online.
<3
 
123NEXT»
 
Users browsing this forum
Guest

DMT-Nexus theme created by The Traveler
This page was generated in 0.220 seconds.