After reading the responses I decided to let the Book of Wisdom stay.

What I will do is what endlessness proposed:


I hope that everybody will agree with this solution.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

I don't care if it's there or if you flush it.
I'm not reading it and I trust people that come here to have their own ideas about homosexuality or whatever. Thinking that someone might start to hate homosexual people after reading this shit I think is plain stupid.

Well actually I changed my mind. I want it to stay!

If it said how the Nazis were right, I wouldn't expect most people to start agreeing either. But that's not the point, is it?

I appreciate The Traveler's mediation, but the 'wisdom' message really puts me off this site. Not quite as much as DMTripper's attitude does though. I'll leave for another forum, I don't feel comfortable here.

well just so you know...you are missing out on a good community of people...its your loss...and ours

Some of my best friends are homosexual and not only is there nothing wrong with them in the sense that they do not in any way show signs of any sort of mental defect, but i also am sure about their relationships being as healthy and full of love as the most healthy heterosexual relationships i've seen.
I happen to agree with ohayoco, that to pledge for a tolerant attitude towards any sort of intolerance, is to give way to this intolerance.
Look what this has done to for instance the united states of america.
I would want people to feel safe and at home in this world (and at this site), regardless of all their differences. Everybody deserves to feel there is a place for them, they can call home. Wich is hard if people, in the name of tolerance, look the other way if others are being met with agression.

I think that beeing tolerant even to intolerance is the only way to be consistent in your attitude and the only way to stay credible. It's another thing to put something like that on your website though.

But i like the thought that people who are visiting this site are propably intelligent enough to make their own decisions.

Oh and ohayoco is clearly judging too fast and overreacting, but that's his/her decision.

Yes, many people visitting this site, in how they express their opinions as well as in the content of their opinions, show proof of way above average intelligence. Nevertheless, when you happen to be homosexual and you're more or less sayed to be an inferior being and all most people have to say on this is 'everybody is entitled to his opinion', i can very well imagine this must hurt.
I think this site is, like i mentioned, different from most societies in that the people here show more intellectual, spiritual and emotional depth. What you can see in many societies is that intolerance is something that keeps on creeping up and demands more and more space. In poland i believe there was a debate in parliament on the possible harm the teletubbies could hold for little children becausse one of them tubbies (i believe his name was tinkiewinkie or something) MIGHT perhaps be gay and i believe in america the 'christian coalition' put pressure on the disney company, threatening to boycot them, becausse Disney treats homosexual employees equal as heterosexual employees and they also wanted to ban all references to Leonardo da Vinci and Michelangelo from public libraries (art and history books, all of it), and i could go on like this for at least two more pages of anti-gay activism that would be hilarious if it wouldn't be so sad and dengerous at the same time.
Maybe this site is an exeption, but generally when you start giving space to the preachers, they start demanding more and more.

Wow, this topic got heated quick!

I am not big on the "book of wisdom" not at all, but since I don't much care for it and have my own spiritual belief (now shaped and molded by The Spice) I just don't read it.

I personally agree that this book holds views that are very much against the basic beliefs of most of our members.

I don't agree that people should up and leave because of it. Just like those crazy fundamentalist christians (sorry won't capitalize it, can't make me)...they may be at the mall trying to convert and brainwash, but they can't make me leave!

what i believe is that we are all here to find out what we believe in...it is our own decision...there is no reason to force anybody to agree with anything that i say...but...there is also no reason to discredit this site just because of ONE sentence in a part of the page that most members rarely visit! who cares if youre gay!?! i dont...i dont even know if youre human!!! so whatever...be at peace with whatever comes your way...just because somebody says things are a certain way...doesnt mean they are

Of course you don't feel comfortable here if you can't handle people not agreeing with you. Please leave, I wont miss you.

Firstly I'd like to say that all the opinions in the Book Of Wisdom are not my own. I Did not write a word of it. It's actually from a Buddha Master. A person since age 4 has been cultivating Buddahood and has had many Masters from both Dao and Buddha schools aswell as Qimen practices pass on there things to him. They saw in him great spiritual potential and plucked him up from a young age to train him in there ways. He has been cultivating all this time, I think he's in his 50's now.

I agree Ohayoco and Endlessness that there are many such phenomena that you stated in the animal kingdom and even moreso in the human realm. It is also true that man has both angelic and demonic nature within him and that is what makes a human well, human.

I also beleive that although humans and animals coexist they are not the same type of being, yes there are simalarities but one just has to glance at human achievement to see that humans are split from the animal kingdom, there is a schism there. Animals to lesser and greater extents run on instincts, a human being has a much deeper and mysterious cognitive capacity. Rich languages, The Arts, Music, Civilizations, Technology are all human achievements quite seperate from the animal world. It's as if a human is semi divine or has a foot in each basket so to speak.

But that is the point. A human ponders, can make choices, has a level of awareness that no animal has. It can grasp much higher truths than an animal can and with spirtual training can awaken himself to see certain truths of the higher cosmos. A human in short is not an animal, it has similarities but it is a being of a higher order and has choices, has free will.

The human mind is the greatest computer in the known universe, it created all those so called supercomputers in the first place. With training this human computer can achieve things that no normal computer can. Things such as awakening the third eye, clairvoyance, reto/precognition and many others are all innate human attributes of a human being that through time have atrophied, the ancients knew these things and some seers still hold the secrets.

In today's society more and more things are being accepted as the norm which ancient people would have labeled immoral. Promiscuity, the gay movement, abortion, extremely violent video games, purely materialistic and violent shows showing thugs and gangsters as the heroes. Do you think these things do not affect a young boy's or girl's mind?

Do you think a person can do what they want in society, damage young peoples concepts of good and bad, right and wrong and it is ok? It doesn't matter if today's liberal society accepts these things, it is against what is good, rightous and true and hence against the nature of the cosmos.

A young mind is like a sponge and a human being is like a vessel, fill it with dirt and it becomes a bag of dirt. Fill it with good things and it becomes a good person, it's that simple. What do you think seperates a serial killer/rapist etc from a good person? It's his mind, what's been put in his mind shapes his perception of his reality hence shapes his choices/decisions which ultimetly leads him to act in different ways.

In regards to DMT, I actually don't use or endorse it's use anymore, that goes for all psychedelics. I talked about this on another thread somewhere. I beleive they are all spiritual hacks, they grant you access to these other realms but it feels intuitivly 'wrong' somehow, something is being damaged in the process.

In budhism, opinions on issues like homosexuality are actually quite diversified. The hinayana schools even tend to reject engagement in all kind of sexual activities, while there are more liberal schools as well.
Humans may have a greater intellectual, emotional and spiritual depth then most animals, but this is merely a matter of degree. Humans are animals and the reference to animals made actually take this diference in account. The higher a species has evolved and the more it has evolved in the direction we have evolved in, a highly social type of species, the more important the other aspects of sexuality will become.
The point in referring to animals is that, for very primitive animals only, sex is only a means of reproduction. In higher animals it has an important social and emotional role, and the higher the animal, the more this is so.
Your poit that humans are 'higher' beings then other creatures only emphasizes that therefore sexuality can never be just limited to being only a tool for reproduction, but that to humans, sex is so much more.
Ranking homosexuality in the same categorie of things such as violent video games and criminal violence is totally absurd.
Criticising modern liberal society in the way that you do, after first saying that we are so much higher then animals leaves me with one further point of criticism on your views and that is that society's may have evolved just as well and that maybe our modern and liberal society's are far superior to the ancient and barbaric societys you would like us to see living in.

I want to have it absolutely clear here that the very core of the budhist philosophy, that i consider to be the most superior philosophy ever developped, is compassion and empathy. Those budhists who only demand some kind of total disengagement from everything do not understand their own philosophy.
Since homosexual relatioships can be full of love and care for eachother in a way that is not loving and caring in a lesser way than in heterosexual relationships AND considering the importence of loving and caring for eachother in a human life, any rejection you have made here of any type of homosexual behaviour is in total violence with the budhist philosophy you base these opinions on.

Am i just interpreting budhism in my own way, just as the hinayana people?
Well, first every budhist agrees on the first principle of it's philosophy wich is the truth of suffering and it's place in the human soul. This makes budhism a typical utilitarian philosophy. On its utilitarian trait, it's call for compassion is based, since you do not feel empathy for anything that is not able to suffer or to have any other feeling, like a rock for instance.
Secondly, budhism is a psychological theory that is meant to explain what causses suffering and what type of behaviour and what type of mental state can result in less suffering. It is therefore meant to take the nature of every human being in account.

and as for violent videogames and so on.. There are two arguments against you: First is that one could say they serve as a sanctioned non-destructive means to release our natural aggressive impulses. So in this way, violent videogames could be PREVENTING kids from actually being violent in real life.

Another thing is that there were experiments already done with kids watching violent movies or playing violent videogames and it was shown that those who had discussed with their parents or other adults about it were much less prone to having any sort of aggresivity increase. Or in other words, if your child is getting violent, don´t blame it on the videogames, blame it on your education. (and I didnt mean this directed at you, was a general comment)




as for "awakening the third eye, clarvoyance, etc", that´s only theories, ideas, opinions, not an established fact.


and another thing about what you said: what is good and bad, right and wrong? Who is the one that says it? Look at history, or even right now in our present world, what is good in one place is bad on another, what is right for one society is wrong for another, what is good for one person is bad for another. So who are you to say what is right or wrong as if it´s something objective? and then once again makes the mistake of equating nature with ´good´.. Didn´t you just read that dolphins can gang rape other dolphins, and so on? Or loads of examples of apparent ´cruelty´ that has nothing to do with pure survival (such as the whales playing with baby seals by throwing them up in the air for example)


"A young mind is like a sponge and a human being is like a vessel, fill it with dirt and it becomes a bag of dirt. Fill it with good things and it becomes a good person, it's that simple." No its not. Then why do some people that have had very shitty lives, been abused and so on become extremely generous people that do everything to help others, or the inverse happens too?

uhm.. homosexuality is NOT an incorrect state of mind. i've even seen it in the animal world. a friend of mine owns a pet store and he told me he has some gay parrots which resist to mate with females. its not that there aren't enough females to go around.. no these particular 2 parrots just don't get off on females.. they need a nice men's ass.

i am not gay.. and i also dont particularly like being around many gay people. but that may just come from me being hetero and them being so "different"

i think being gay might be just a way of nature controlling the overbreed. nature has built in some faults here and there because nothing is supposed to be perfect from the beginning. nature wants it to evolve, to transform, to mutate. that is what nature does. there are always some kind of incomplete forms of whatever which attract one another to form a symbiotic unity which makes living or what you may call it easier for both.

In every upright faith Homosexuality is not considerd an upright path. It only takes a glance to see that a man and a woman joined in union is the 'natural' and 'harmonious' way a society develops. When asked about homosexuality and Buddhism the Dalai Lama has said that homosexuality is not allowed in Buddhism.

I also agree with you that sexuality is an innate part of the human experiance and I never implied that sexuality is limited to a tool purely for reproduction. Infact in in true tantric cultivation of male/female the yang suppliments the ying and a cultivation of both people is achieved so sexuality indeed does have a very spiritual aspect to it too.

Your quite correct I'm critizing 'modern' society but I am not critizing man's amazing innate potential,that is to say man as a being has so much depth and creativity and intelligence yet is somehow deviating from all this. A glance on a television will show you that. And a television could be such a great tool yet it is not being used to it's true potential and that is just one example. There is a deep schizm between man's scientific capabilites and his spiritual core. It's as if one is atrophing while the other is developing exceedingly fast. The harmony and balance is lost.

I agree with you that the one part of Buddha Law is compassion, but compassion is just one part. There are also things such as Truth, knowing right from wrong, a strong will that can bear hardships of the greatest kind and many other things. Also Buddha Law has law guardians, why you see them in temples or even in Buddhists paintings and novels. Why would Buddha Law need guardians? It's because a Law such as this must protect itself from the other side or to put simply protect itself from evil. It's definetly not just a melting pot of 'Do what thou wilt'. It is noble, has standards, and is not an easy path to follow.

Many ancient civilizations were not barbaric at all, the ancient Tang Dynasty of China had a very harmonious society, it was very Dao in nature and people followed the Dao and were in Harmony with nature and each other to a much greater degree than today. It had amazing art, culture and musical abilities and it's knowledge of the cosmos, man and earth was great. Some things like Chi Gong, Meridian points, The I ching and many many other things were discovered and passed on.

Your correct every sentient being is suffering and Buddha's which really just means awakened ones see the 'bigger picture'. All that inner arduous meditation slowly awakens there innate abilities until they truly 'awaken'. They see all this suffering and want a person to liberate themselves from this suffering, to enter the other shore or what Buddha Shakyamuni called 'nirvana' or what Jesus called 'The Heavens'. But these places operate on a higher law, a more divine level that has higher standards than the human realm. Compassion is also guiding people in a correct way and showing that they may be doing things that may harm them in the future. A school teacher has compassion for her pupils and if one of them is for example doing something wrong or naughty, isn't is compassionate to point that out?

On the topic of violent video games, movies, music etc perhaps these things in adult hands minimize the impact caused as the human mind has already formed it's preconceived notions of reality and knows right from wrong. But on young kids who are still developing mentally, spiritually and emotionally it does affect them.

Fact and fiction, Truth and make beleive are still concepts that haven's fully solidified in ther psyches. That is why little children have invisible friends and such. Feed a young boy or girl constant bad 'stimulus', constant dark and negative music, games, movies and how else can they behave, these things have shaped them.

Have a look at Dr Emoto's work on water crystals. Have a look at what type of effect simple words have on these crystals let alone on the mind of a child.

In terms of studies on these things, many studies have also shown that these types of things have detrimental effect on kids, it depends on who is funding the research.

As for supernatural abilities that I have mentioned, well that is for you to decide There is I beleive enough scientific, historical and anecdotal evidence to atleast suggest that things are not as they seem or as we perceive them. Oh and the big bang is only a theory too.

Endlessness wrote:

"and another thing about what you said: what is good and bad, right and wrong? Who is the one that says it? Look at history, or even right now in our present world, what is good in one place is bad on another, what is right for one society is wrong for another"

Wrong, good and bad is universal. Were in the word is killing, rape, stealing, hurting another, lying or any other 'bad' thing looked upon favorably or even condoned in human society? Good and Bad are like night and day.

And as for abused hurt lives, 90% of serial killers and rapists and other criminals had very troubled and damaged upbringings.

I do not think the words upright and faith belong in the same sentence. Of course normal man woman sex is more "natural" but who the hecks cares what kind of sex or with what sex people want to have sex with?



Not every sentient being is suffering. Why do people think buddhists got it all figured out anyway? Buddhism is a psychological tool to learn how to accept your ineviatable death. In my opinion buddhism can be a very self centered religion.



Are you serious? Ice? When you speak to ice your hot breathe melts part of it any maybe that changes if structure a bit if you yell it or speak gently doesn't make much of a difference unless the force of your voice soundwaves is enough to break it. Sorry but people like that are not doing real science. How many pictures of ice does he take before it matches up with his beliefs about praying and all that hocus pocus? Don't take such nonsense seriously.



If your starving to death and no one will feed you and the only choice you have to get food is to rob somewhat what do you do? Good and bad is not universal. Its a somewhat weak example but we can come up with more.

Here is another. In some Middle Eastern societies killing a woman that has been raped for the honor of the family is considered "right". In Western society this is very "wrong".

The pope says that using birth control is wrong. For many, not using birth control is wrong. As overpopulated as our world is, with all the poverty, should we be listening to the pope's version of right and wrong? Every society has a right and wrong. NOT beating your wife when she displeases you in some cultures is considered wrong....

Right and Wrong are society based, not universal.



I'm VERY sorry to hear you say this. DMT and other entheogens have restored spiritual faith in many people that I know. Christianity (anther upright religion?) has driven faith and the belief in god out of so many, but DMT and Ayahuasca have allowed these people to find faith in god again. I am one of these people. DMT and many other entheogens have been very important in defining my spiritual beliefs. Without them my belief in god would be non-existent. My faith in you however is now gone. I did not realize the person who started this great forum was so close minded on morality and psychoactives.

My best friend happens to be gay. I know how he has suffered from all the prejudice and homophobia there is, and i also know how much of the ideas many people have simply don't aply to him and the relationships he has had. The 'every upright religion will consider them evil' part is completely stupid and offending in this sense and i would be not even half as offending when i would call those who hold such views as backward creatures depleted of any apreciation for the most valuable thing there can be in a human live; love.
The argumemt is at the same time no more then an expression of a personal view, and just as i would not want to have a sexual relationship with someone from my own gender, someone else may just feel different about this.
I do not see how a relationship between a man and another man or a woman and another woman, would be moraly wrong, how it would be less genuine, less harmonious, how it would be a relationship with less love or care or how it would be less healthy in ANY way.
There are no arguments for this at all, other then pure expressions of one's personal taste, wich is exactly the thing where this is all about.
Seeing how somebody love's another person can in my view not be harmfull to a child, but seeing how something like love is being judged in this way can. Like i sayed; these prejudice's cause more pain and suffering then you want to know.
I have high regards for the dalai lama, but realize that he, when asked anout masturbation, would give the same answer as on homosexuality. (and THIS is something the preachers usualy don't say because then it's suddenly about 99% of the adult population instead of just the 5 to 10 % that is homosexual)

oh yes, we can come up with TONS of examples about totally opposite good and bad concepts in humanity, from paedophilia and different forms of sexuality, to all sorts of torture and violence, to simple gestures and so on.. Acolon named a few more

but you know what.. Im not gonna waste my words anymore, I think everyone expressed themselves very well, and the point doesn´t seem to be getting across, so I´ll just leave it at that

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Best of luck you guys.