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Modern Musings on Harmine, Harmaline, and THH Options
 
Elrik
#1 Posted : 9/29/2017 6:56:09 AM

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Now that we have established methods to reliably obtain reasonably pure harmine, harmaline, and THH it makes sense to have a thread about examinations of their uses and differences.
My observations to date are not backed by dozens of trials of the pure alkaloids, so they should be viewed as tentative, but it may be a starting point for people to share and compare their observations.
I tried THH hydrochloride dihydrate (THH.HCl) on its own first.
At 100 mg I felt normal at first and by the 1 hour mark I noticed I was in an uncharacteristically good mood. This elevated mood lasted for several hours before slowly fading away. There was no anorexia or stoning, if I had been dosed without my knowledge I probably wouldnt have figured it out. But I might take this dose before a date or a concert.
At 200 mg I started to feel 'something' at one hour, over the next hour that progressed to a mild psychedelic feel, gentle body high, and again a good mood. These effects lasted a couple hours. Some slight ataxia did manifest with the body high.
100 mg THH + 200 mg harmine was much like the previous trial but with a more distinct (but still easily handled) body high.
Next I started combining in the NMT/DMT with my purified alkaloids, dosages are expressed as the gram equivalents of the ACRB I extracted and I always fast 18 hours before hand. As a preface, my past DMT experience has been with using NMT/DMT from ACRB orally with a relatively high dose of harmaline/harmine mix from P. harmala (generally 240 mg as the hydrochloride). In those dozen trips I started low, worked up to two 20 gram doses, and settled on 12 grams as a happy medium.
My 240 mg harmine.HCl followed 3 minutes later with 12 g ACRB trial was a bit spotty. It kicked in by 50 minutes but I vomited at 60, which was odd as I almost never vomited before, and I could taste and smell the DMT so that probably effected the strength of the trip. Pupil dilation was very inconsistent. Peak visuals was soon after vomiting and visuals had concluded by 2 hours. The whole trip was several hours shorter than my harmaline/harmine trips. I think my body just rejected this one for some reason.
Next I predosed with 150 mg THH.HCl one hour early, so its peak would overlap with the DMT peak, and then I took 240 mg harmine.HCl followed 3 minutes later with 12 g ACRB. I followed this with a bit of crystallized ginger to help prevent nausea and encourage digestion of the DMT. Holy god, that hit me like a sack of rainbow colored bricks. I was feeling it at 15 minutes and rocketing up, with visuals, at 20 minutes. I got another piece of ginger down as I felt nausea and managed to get to a dark room by 30 minutes where I spent several hours trying to survive a very strong trip. Vomiting occurred at 1 hour 30 but I'm not surprised, this trip left my previous 20 gram trips in the dust. And I still just kept going deeper after vomiting. It felt way too strong but the visuals were fantastic angular geometric designs made of full spectrum rainbows starting in neon red going through to neon blue. Wonderful richness in color variety. The anxiety from the shocking intensity was a bummer tho. This trip was a couple hours shorter than my previous harmaline/harmine trips.
That last one just wiped the floor with me so I dialed down the dosage. I still predosed 1 hour early with 150 mg THH.HCl but then took 180 mg harmine.HCl and 8.5 g ACRB alks plus a piece of sweet ginger to be consistent. Again I was feeling it at 15 minutes and had CEVs before 30 minutes and soon retired to the dark. Strong nausea hit before the peak but I didnt vomit this time and I spent the next several hours squirming in the dark listening to music. CEVs lasted a bit past the 5 hour mark. This 8.5 gram trip was still stronger than my previous 12 gram trips, perhaps on par with the 16's. Again the trip was a couple hours shorter than past trips.

Removing the harmaline from my mixes seems to cause quite a tendency toward purging.
Removing the harmaline also completely removed the powerful photophobia I had always got before. On harmaline dominated trips my pupils would dilate Huge and light would hurt. On harmine or THH+harmine my pupils only dilate half as much and light doesnt hurt. Moreover, without the harmaline I dont get any disoriented brain fog. Anxiety, sure, but my mental faculties are still intact, even if my vocabulary is reduced to 'holy shit, oh my god'.
Predosing with THH seems to make everything hit much faster. CEVs start in distinctly earlier, peak starts earlier, and I just rocket up into the peak. It also makes the DMT far more potent, easily cutting the needed dose in half.

My psychedelic vacation is over now but at some future point I intend to include low to moderate doses of harmaline to see how it plays with the others. I also intend to see if a 4 gram ACRB dose would actually be worthwhile now. THH may save me money!

Thoughts? Experiences? Refutations?
 
 
Jees
#2 Posted : 9/29/2017 9:59:02 AM

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Thanks for sharing Thumbs up

I second that harmine (compared to harmaline) gives a much clearer experience, you said it as less 'brain fog'.

Being a strong advocate for predosing harmalas myself, I've yet to try predosing THH solely, looks quite interesting.

Nausea used to be a huge problem for me, not anymore (knocking wood), check out Pharma without discomforts if you haven't already. I never thought it was possible to have Zero issues.

I've a tad less dosing compared to yours, my present ideal is like (all freebase weights) 150 harmine, 50 harmaline, 50 THH. But this was without predosing. Being prudent this enables the harmaline to become a very nice condiment and let it unfold it's best qualities without fogging the brain overly, the clearness remains Thumbs up

The prudent harmala dose enables the deems to come forth stronger in its own character, I know this sounds very counter-logic but to me heavy harmala doses influence the harmala/deems balance. Aya adepts head the other way I know, they are all over harmalas with just a nudge of deems. Well to each his own. So I make some "room" for the deems by not going full on harmalas. The price to pay is some shorter experience and lesser of tracers indeed, but hey you won't hear me complaining. But the predosing THH is a good hint to try.

Smile


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Elrik
#3 Posted : 9/29/2017 6:52:33 PM

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I'm looking forward to my future trials including harmaline, for sure. I'm starting to gravitate toward lower harmala doses as well and my body weight is quite low so one of the trials I have planned is a THH predose followed by 120 mg harmine.HCl, 30 mg harmaline.HCl, and the alkaloids from 6 grams ACRB.
And at some point I'll need to sort the THH dose. I chose 150 at semi-random based on my THH-only trials where 100 just made me happy and 200 caused some stoning so I thought why not try half way between Laughing At some point I'll try reducing the THH.HCl at least down to 100 mg.

As a side note, a rule of thumb for people to remember in dosing harmalas is that the hydrochloride dihydrates [manske crystals] weigh 4/3 as much as the freebases, and the freebases weight 3/4 as much as the manske crystals. Scientific literature, in particular, tends to report in freebase weight and some trippers do too, so its important to remember those conversion ratios to get your harmala dose on target Smile

Its funny, based on the pharmacokinetic profiles of these substances I expected the trips to be somewhat shorter. I feared they would be cut in half but they were only an hour or two shorter and with how much the intensity was boosted I dont regret that one bit. This way seems to give better alkaloid economy. More trip per mg.
One other future project that I hope to get to on my next psychedelic vacation coming in december or february is to trial refined mescaline with THH alone. Comparing a fixed low mescaline dose by itself with THH and mescaline taken together, and then again with THH predosed before the mescaline. I'm curious to see not only if it changes the character of the experience but also if it drops the required dose of mescaline. I'm sitting on 30 kilos of good cactus branches that need extracting, and even more is freely available, but it would still be nice to conserve the alkaloid if possible. Particularly if THH's color enhancement also works with mescaline!

As an addendum, one thing I failed to mention in my previous post was that in both of my THH+DMT trials the peak was characterized by Massive time dilation. I think I lived a month in the top hour of each peak. I didnt mention this previously because I seem to recall a similar phenomena in my earlier harmaline dominated 20 gram ACRB trips, so the time dilation is likely just a function of intensity, but it is something I am going to be watching for on lower doses just in case the THH caries it over to more moderate dosage levels.
 
Elrik
#4 Posted : 10/29/2017 4:38:53 AM

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Elrik wrote:
...One other future project that I hope to get to on my next psychedelic vacation coming in december or february is to trial refined mescaline with THH alone...

I got the first few steps done on this.
I prepared a batch of unrefined orange cactus alkaloid hydrochloride for the trials.
Given that RIMA harmalas have been noted to as much as double mescaline potency and that THH just wiped the floor with me by at least doubling the potency of DMT, I first established baselines by doing 200 mg by itself, then on another occasion 400 mg by itself to give me a basis of comparison.
For the trial I predosed with 150 mg THH hydrochloride one hour before dosing 200 mg of cactus alkaloid. I chose this low dose as a safety margin in case it more than doubled potency.
The intensity of the trip was not doubled, not even close, but it may have been increased somewhat over the 200 mg baseline. It very certainly wasnt diminished.
The time scale of the trip was unaltered. The mescaline kicked in about the same time, the peak was at the same time, etc. but I did experience distinct time dilation on the ramp up to, and during, the peak in the THH+mescaline trip. I got the same when I predosed DMT with THH.
At 200 mg there arent much in terms of CEVs, at least not with this batch of alkaloid, so I cant say with confidence if a THH predose significantly impacted the character of the visuals. They seemed more fluid and flowing, but that might have just been standard variation. They were only really clear for about 20 minutes at the peak.
Both alkaloids were taken as pills with a cup of warm water and there was no nausea at any point and I was a bit hungry on the down side of the peak.
Ataxia may have been increased a bit, but not up to the 400mg baseline level.
Music became very emotional, another thing that happens to me when THH is added to DMT. Emotions never came easy to me and I just love this dimension to THH.

I look forward to trying 150 mg THH with higher doses of mescaline, probably with recrystallized mescaline to see if I can diminish that ataxia and keep my head a little clearer.

Anyway, did it and didnt regret it Cool
 
Jees
#5 Posted : 10/29/2017 10:57:32 AM

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Cool, thank you Thumbs up


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tregar
#6 Posted : 10/29/2017 5:53:50 PM

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Elrik said:
Quote:
Vomiting occurred at 1 hour 30 but I'm not surprised, this trip left my previous 20 gram trips in the dust. And I still just kept going deeper after vomiting. It felt way too strong but the visuals were fantastic angular geometric designs made of full spectrum rainbows starting in neon red going through to neon blue. Wonderful richness in color variety. The anxiety from the shocking intensity was a bummer tho.

Thanks for your report Elrik, very well written, thanks for sharing. As an aside, the unusually high percentage of NMT in some Acacia may have some strange interactions with THH, as they are both 5-ht1a agonist, just as 5-meo-dmt (a very strong 5-ht1a agonist) in Chaliponga can have unwanted interactions with THH at higher levels. I wouldn't be surprised if the acacia contributes to nausea and anxiety whereas straight psychotria (99% dmt) is rather benign in combination with THH (ie no interactions)...stay safe and careful. Traditional Ayahuasca is psychotria + caapi or chaliponga (low levels) + caapi, just be careful with the barks, as it's not used traditionally in the Amazon or UDV or Santo Daime. ie Barks traditionally were used by themselves and not with components of caapi. If you notice pupils that become very large on the combination and do not decrease or fluctuate from a single large diameter for hours along with lots of nausea and anxiety and or sweating and rapid heart beat are all indications or warning sign to avoid.
 
Elrik
#7 Posted : 10/29/2017 10:25:52 PM

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Yeah, that is a very good point.
One of my planned projects is to get all the NMT out of a batch of purified ACRB alkaloids via aspirin transacetylation, with subsequent hydrolysis of the acetylNMT, so I can try the pure DMT and DMT combined with smaller, measured, doses of NMT. I'll get to that eventually.
I wish I had co-conspirators in my town I could feed drugs to like Shulgin did.

Heck, I just wish I had time and solitude enough for all my psychedelics ideas.
At times I wish I was a shaman living in the jungle near a native village, but then I think 'if I lived in a grass hut away from civilization where would I get erlenmeyer flasks' Laughing
 
tregar
#8 Posted : 10/30/2017 4:11:07 AM

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Keep up the good work Elrik! Look forward to hearing more.
 
Elrik
#9 Posted : 11/25/2017 4:19:51 AM

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Thanks Smile

I just had a hell of a surprise. I had the notion of simultaneously peaking on mescaline, THH, harmine, and DMT/NMT. I timed everything right but it didnt work. Heres what it looked like:

T=0 375 mg mescaline hydrochloride taken
T+0:30 clearly feeling it
T+1:40 150 mg THH.HCl taken
T+2:37 180 mg harmine.HCl taken
T+2:40 alks from 3 grams ACRB taken
T+3:00 retired to the dark
T+3:30 approximate visual peak
T+5:00 took apple and dates
T+5:40 suddenly felt very strange, ears stuffed up, 118/62-92, body tried to vomit, this prompted a sudden DMT peak. So much for thinking I didnt take enough DMT, what a surprising apple
T+7:00 reported to nexus

I have to admit I was scared for a minute, hence the blood pressure check [high for me but safe, pulse like I was running]. My hypothesis is that the DMT was retained in the gut until the apple prompted digestion. I always take drugs in the fasted state, I wont even take coffee without fasting. The DMT/NMT is supplied as a stock solution of monobasic citrate, less than ideal but it was convenient at the time.
I've had this DMT do this once before, act uncharacteristically late after vomiting. Is the delayed absorption of DMT being caused by the excessive citric acid, and the body not digesting it due to fasting? Will switching to DMT fumarate solve it or should I just make a practice to break the fast with sweet ginger when I take the DMT?
I use fasting for healing but I expect if I were seriously ill I'd leave out the mescaline and DMT and, at most, just use the ß-carbolines.

Thank god for spellcheck Wink
 
Bancopuma
#10 Posted : 11/25/2017 4:53:25 PM

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I've experienced delayed onset from DMT when brewing my own Syrian rue and Chaliponga from eating food later on in the experience...this seems to be quite commonly reported by people homebrewing ayahausca. The current hypothesis is that enterohepatic circulation is responsible, with DMT ending up in the gallbladder in the liver, which releases bile (and the DMT) into the gut following the consumption of food.

In my case, years ago now, I had fallen asleep after drinking my brew but awoke to an energetic buzzing and some cool geometric spiral patterning. I'd heard eating a little food can help things along so I ate a banana and a few olives and within about 30 seconds of finishing I went from a light buzz to a very deep DMT/aya space! It was incredibly blissful and beautiful but unfortunately it didn't last long.
 
Elrik
#11 Posted : 11/25/2017 9:51:04 PM

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Hmm, now that I'm sober I remember food prompting late onset flashes in others but I guess I just always assumed it was tannins binding the alks in the gut and getting hit by digestive juices with food. I'd not heard the enterohepatic circulation hypothesis before, its entirely plausible and if this hypothesis is correct then that most likely means that switching to properly made fumarate and taking a bite of food with the DMT will not prevent the late onset effect. As the drug actually has to enter the blood, get processed by the liver, and incorporated into bile before it could be recirculated.
I still wonder what parameters could prevent it. My first peak only had half as much DMT effect as I expected and the second one hit me like a brick wall, and not in a good way at first Wink
 
downwardsfromzero
#12 Posted : 11/25/2017 10:55:24 PM

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Elrik wrote:
One of my planned projects is to get all the NMT out of a batch of purified ACRB alkaloids via aspirin transacetylation, with subsequent hydrolysis of the NMT acetate

You won't have NMT acetate, you'll have N-acetyl-NMT. Good luck with hydrolysing that in any recoverable yield.

Interesting work, keep it up!
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

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Elrik
#13 Posted : 11/26/2017 12:55:07 AM

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Yup, that was a typo.
I havent thought out the hydrolysis yet but it shouldnt be that hard.
If I dont find an established method here, and assuming I start with a solution of acetylNMT in xylene, my first try will likely be something along the lines of treating it with lye in 25% alcohol for several days, perhaps with a stir bar going on slow several hours each day. If yield is horrible I'd switch it out to 1M hydrochloric acid and leave it on a shelf for 6 months. I'm rarely in a hurry Wink
 
Jagube
#14 Posted : 12/4/2017 1:10:03 AM

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Bancopuma wrote:
I've experienced delayed onset from DMT when brewing my own Syrian rue and Chaliponga from eating food later on in the experience...

I experience that with Chaliponga and no other light-bearing plants. They all come on reliably at around the 1 hr mark after the 1st serving, and 30 mins after the subsequent servings. Chaliponga often doesn't come on at all unless I eat something.
 
Jees
#15 Posted : 2/11/2018 7:47:42 PM

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Elrik wrote:
...Next I predosed with 150 mg THH.HCl one hour early, so its peak would overlap with the DMT peak, and then I took 240 mg harmine.HCl followed 3 minutes later with 12 g ACRB....
I've always loved pre dosing harmalas, but doing that with THH makes much more sence. Took it 2 hours in advance (100mg FB). Extra benefit is that it stays active for half a day so you won't miss on it later on. So by the time one takes the actual other harmala's + deems, your stomach is not getting as much alkaloids to process in that final shot.
Thumbs up


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Elrik
#16 Posted : 2/13/2018 8:29:45 PM

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Just a few notes on RIMAs and THH in combination with mescaline.

In the past I've used harmaline dominated mansked rue alks in combination with cactus tea.
It always boosted the potency by roughly one third to half, and made the visuals a bit more LSD-like. Not fully LSD like, just a shift in that direction with the color and geometry. I also have an idiosyncratic reaction to cactus tea whereby I get bad arthritis during the trip and in the day after and the rue predose reduced this somewhat.
I got a large stock of clean mescaline hydrochloride and have forever given up trichocereus tea, as the refined mescaline almost 100% eliminates that arthritis phenomena.
I've spent the last 5 months exploring this mescaline on its own, in combination with pure harmine, and in combination with both harmine and THH.
My experience to date tells me that in me, just like with manske alks, pure harmine increases the potency of mescaline by 1/3 to 1/2 and it also seems to make it more clear headed even at the same gram dose of mescaline. This more-clear-headed effect is especially worthwhile at mescaline doses of 500 mg and above.
Adding THH was somewhat anticlimactic. THH + harmine didnt produce any substantial potentiation above adding harmine alone or any unequivocal difference in visuals. It did seem to give some of the time dilation that THH gives to DMT trips. I still dont have enough data to convince myself it doesnt do anything beyond adding time dilation and perhaps more emotional involvement, it might subtly effect visuals, but if your short on your THH supply you might want to avoid investing a whole lot in experiments with mescaline and use it with DMT where it shines.

Harmine + THH + mescaline seems perfectly safe to me, I took it very deep and still didnt see any danger signs. I weigh just 56 kilos, clothed, and my deepest trip was taking 180 mg harmine.HCl, 150 mg THH.HCl, and 750 mg white mescaline.HCl all at once with the harmine dissolved in water to wash down the pills.
Dont fucking do that dose unless your very experienced! Laughing
It was a very, very deep trip. At one point it literally took me an hour just to work out the difference between smell, fingers, and thought but [beyond vomiting once] there were no disturbing bodily experiences or unanticipated psychological reactions, and I obviously survived.
Its also noteworthy that, beyond a certain point, higher doses didnt seem to increase the depth of visuals. Higher and higher doses just seem to make the whole trip and the visual peak longer and neither harmine, nor harmine+THH change this. In the instance of that heroic dose the visual peak, as far as I could tell, lasted from the 2.5 hour mark to the 5 hour mark!

I plan to do a few more trials, but I expect my combining of THH with mescaline will be limited and may soon end entirely. My combining of harmine with mescaline will not Wink
 
HumbleVoyager
#17 Posted : 2/15/2018 5:30:40 AM

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Amazing thread!!
 
Elrik
#18 Posted : 5/27/2018 11:34:37 PM

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Elrik wrote:
...I plan to do a few more trials, but I expect my combining of THH with mescaline will be limited and may soon end entirely. My combining of harmine with mescaline will not Wink
Update: To really test the limits I did an experiment. As above mentioned, into my little 56 kilo frame I washed down 750 mg mescaline.HCl and 150 mg THH.HCl pills with 180 mg harmine.HCl solution. I rode out that whopping strong trip and kept notes.
When time and circumstance permitted another such deep and long trip I did just as above, but I left out the THH. I was treated to another whopping strong, mind shattering, sense-identity abolishing marathon trip.
As with every comparison of really strong trips, many of the fine details were somewhat different. But overall the two trips were essentially equivalent. Both were 19 hours long, both got to peak visuals at about the same time, they both went equally as deep into peak visuals, and both had an hour where my mind was wiped completely blank and my senses became dis-identified and intermingled and I had to slowly reconstruct reality and sense perception from scratch [these dose levels are not for the faint hearted]. I'm not sure if the THH-free trip had a slightly shorter visual peak period or if I just wasnt monitoring it as closely for those hours. I am sure that I vomited once on the THH trip and had no nausea on the THH-free trip, that was the only definite difference.

I adore dosing DMT after THH but I think this experiment concludes my tests of mixing THH with mescaline, since for me it seems to add too little to be statistically significant.
I still love washing white mescaline pills down with harmine solution Thumbs up
 
ijahdan
#19 Posted : 5/28/2018 5:50:54 PM

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Interesting stuff Elrik, Ive been experimenting with harmalas again over the last few months and just wanted to add a few experiences to this thread. Ive done another VDS type separation of harmine/harmaline (pH-metric with ammonia as the base) and the harmaline is now put aside awaiting conversion to thh. In the mean time, Ive been taking the harmine sublingually, smoking it and orally on its own and in combination with mescaline and bufotenine.

Sublingual administration only gives me mild effects and a lot ends up getting swallowed eventually anyway, so Im now concentrating on the other two routes.

On its own, Ive had several enjoyable evenings smoking bongs of harmine freebase mixed with mullein till my ears are ringing and then doing some yoga, listening to music, and lying down feeling very alert and relaxed at the same time. Doesnt last too long, unlike the harmine/harmaline mixture, and feel fine the next morning. Dosage is usually around 50mg per bong, 3 bongs over an hour or so.

Ive dug out some yopo I made over a year ago (toasted seeds, hulled and based with lime in 5:1 yopo:lime ratio). Worked well but caused 24 hour severe nose blockage in both nostrils, so thought Id try smoking it and add harmine to counteract the vasoconstriction. Mixed 2 parts yopo and 1 of harmine with small amount mullein and smoked bongs as before but more heavily packed, so maybe 150 mg per bong (maybe more actually, didnt weigh it). This worked really well. I was able to keep smoking for a few minutes before I felt the need to lie down, and as soon as I did, started flying through the dark at high speed. After a few more minutes, the typical flashes of visuals began, and eventually I stopped flying and settled into a beautiful floaty space full of colourful swirly visions. Main point, was that were hardly any vasoconstrictive effects, apart from pins and needles in my legs and slight stomach tension. There was also more of a 'meaningful' feel to the trip than with straight yopo. More aya-like headspace. Needs more investigation for sure.

Finally, this thread inspired me to try oral harmine with mescaline, since I only had about 150 mg of 69ron tek extracted acetate from san pedro left and wanted it to be as long lasting and strong as possible to accompany me on a full days walking along the coast. Dont have time to post a full report, but basically it worked well. The previous 150 mg of this batch had given me a fun, euphoric and slightly trippy evening at home with the family, and it was easy to sleep after about 5 hours. This time I took the same amount with 250 mg harmine dissolved in lemon juice at 7:00 am. Felt the first effects after 45 minutes and was still a bit sparkly when I returned home at 7:00 pm. Lots of smooth energy for walking and calm serenity for long periods sitting looking out to sea, thinking deeply. No real visuals but lots of 'mind's eye' stuff. Even found myself drifting back into this headspace the next day when listening to music. Very impressed with this combo. Seems ideal for when mesc stocks are low.

On a side note, I also had a pretty insane but very fun time on 850 mg of mescaline a while ago. Wouldnt have wanted to boost that one with harmine though!



 
 
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