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Loveall
#1 Posted : 8/9/2017 4:59:10 AM




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Hi, there is an interesting salvia patent that claims Salvinorin A has medical uses to help the brain with improved blood flow and presents multiple examples from treating piglets. The patent also references the "million" recreational users and older cultural use of the plant when talking about safety. It has other goodies such as solubility of salvia in compounds for administration which may be relevant to this discussion.

This patent may also help avoid having yet another natural medicinal and spiritual gift of nature from falling victim to government drug classifications that limit human freedoms of access to said gifts.

Posting here since I can't do so in the Salvia area (sorry). I searched for this in the forums and could not find it, sorry if it has been posted before.
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
Loveall
#2 Posted : 9/2/2017 1:07:14 PM




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I went ahead and got some hydroxypropyl-beta cyclodextrin (HPBCD) which is referenced in the salvia patent and the original Nexus thread mentioned above. The idea was to try to make salvia crystal bioavailabe in a HPBCD solution.

Procedure:

1- Homegrown salvia was given thanks, and after requesting permission, harvested. The plant material was dried and subsequently extracted with very cold acetone 3x. Cold acetone was allowed to settle and a small solid residue decanted. After evaporation, 100mg of fluffy slightly green shiny beautiful crystals where collected. The green hue indicated the crystals we're not completely pure. Material was bioassayed by smoking 1mg resulting in strongly leaving this reality and exploring an interesting new place where the 3rd dimension was missing and myself and all the people I know did not exist in any form of memory. I estimate that the final extract material contained at least 50% salvinorin A, but cannot be sure.

2 - Several HPBCD/Water/Ethanol solutions we're tested by keeping them in the mouth for 20 minutes. After using 80mg of extract im total I can report that there were no positive significant results. The best results were obtained at 5ml 75% ethanol, 20% HPBCD and 15mg extract, but the burning sensation was very unpleasant. I cannot even say that HPBCD helped absorb the extract because the burning was so unpleasant that I did not test a control with 0% HPBCD. At lower ethanol content (40%, 5%, and 0% where tested) results were poor.

In conclusion it does not seem that HPBCD is a practical way to make salvia extract buccally active in water/ethanol solutions. However, the substance has shown very positive results for steroid sublingual bioavailability. I'll move on to testing mushroom tea next. The nexus DMT/HPBCD work is discussed here.
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
Loveall
#3 Posted : 9/5/2017 2:44:26 AM




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Ok, giving Salvia complexation another shot. Following what other members have said/suggested in the links above, the solution will be dried. This should enhance complexation. I think the idea is that as volume decreases the HPBCD and Salvia come closer together and end up fitting into each other. Currently evaporating a 75% ethanol solution of 50mg salvia extract and ecess HPBCD. Will bioassay the resulting powder and report back. Lets hope for some good luck to me, there are ~150mg of Salvia cold acetone extract invested so far on this Very happy (but at least half of it is chlorophyll based on color and smoking results).
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
Eaglepath
#4 Posted : 9/5/2017 9:58:10 AM

I rather root my values in my own hallucinations than in society´s neurotic illusions..

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Wow, really interesting stuff!

Could you explain further regarding the smoking procedure. You let it soak in acetone for a while, vape off and 1mg in an oil burner or sandwich method works or?
The laughing fat monk in my brain... Not even if I ran into a wall he will change.. Speedin with my ego on the road to hell, with madre Ayahuasca as the NOS we lift off to space.. Dancing in the light of trust... but making love in intuition and lust...
 
Loveall
#5 Posted : 9/5/2017 12:34:06 PM




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I use a health stone where I add the powder and a glass pipe. The glass pipe is made by local artists neatly decorated (I like to support them). I put the flame very close to the salvia extract and inhale after it starts glowing a bit. It is very strong stuff, anything above 2mg will start becoming too intense. Some here use naphta and IPA washes after the cold acetone extract to purify it further and remove the chlorophyll. Check out this thread if not done so already.

This morning I checked on the drying HPBCD/salvia in 75% ethanol solution. Looks almost ready to test to see if it complexed and will be active. Even though it is indoors I covered it up so UV would not hurt it during the day.

If complexation does occur and is stable then it brings up other interesting possibilities. An IPA wash without loss becomes possible to remove the excess HPBCD and chlorophyll if I understand this properly also, reagents and chromotography may not detect the salvia anymoreas an interesting side effect. There would also be phylosophical questions since we trapped the salvia in a ring of sugar, will she be angry? The ring is a symbol of renewal for some, so maybe she will be happy? Will she not care? But I'm getting ahead of myself, need to test the dried solution later and see if we have something interesting or not.
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
Loveall
#6 Posted : 9/6/2017 6:53:33 AM




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After all the previous fails, I can report that the dried solution is at least in part buccally activel Thumbs up The salvinorin must have complexed while drying. It was 6ml 75% ethanol, 48mg green powder from a cold acetone salvia extract and 0.5g of HPBTC. The solution was shaken a few times before allowing to dry, and this shaking may or may no matter (aka I don't know, sorry).

The solution was dried on a glass tray for 24 hours. Scraping it up was hard and required some muscle but doable. Based on bioassay it seems like most if not all of the salvia was complexed and is active if the dried residue is held in the mouth for 10 minutes. There is only mild bitterness if any (much more enjoyable and bearable than the quid method imo).

It does seem that drying is essential here to get complexation as others have mentioned before in the links above (thank you). Outside sources suggest spray drying and lower PH for their particular complexation example.

This opens a lot of questions,

Can someone repeat/confirm this? Is shaking before drying needed?
Did all the salvinorin A get complexed? If any did not it will not be absorbed and wasted.
Does this open up new extraction methods (all of a sudden complexed salvinorin is soluble in water, not sure how soluble it is in IPA)
Can the complexation occur while drying the original acetone from the extraction if HPBTC is simply added to it before the first evaporation?
How powerful can the complexed powder be? Naive answer using the Molecular weigh ratio suggests the final product can be ~25% salvinorin with perfect complexation (no excess of HPBCD or loss of salvinorin) and starting with pure product.
A simple water solution can be made with the complexed salvinorin. Is it stable and buccally active? What about orally active, can it be drunk?
Did I complex the ethanol and also create alcohol powder? This is bad since it means there could be salvinorin that cannot find an empty HPBCD ring (ethanol and salvinorin are competing)
Is there a better solvent to complex these?
Is this reversible? Can the salvinorin be uncomplexed for fun or for smoking purposes (or to help answer previous questions)?

Will try to answer these and other questions as they come up over time. Also interested in any help/input.

Thanks for reading.
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
#7 Posted : 9/6/2017 7:47:35 PM

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This is a really fascinating experiment, I really hope we will be able to get to the bottom of this at one point or another.
Thanks a lot for your contributions and the time you spent working on this Smile

Salvia is such a strange drug in all ways, from the unique effects that are unlike anything else to the mysterious origins of the plant, the kappa-opioid targeting, the rather abnormal routes of administration compared to other substances, etc.

One thing I'd like to ask, when bio-assaying the crystal, how did you measure the dose?
Surely a mg scale would not be sufficiently accurate for these purposes, volumetric dosing is not optimal as you wanted to vaporizer it (unless you evaporate a dose from your vial?), and weighing say 10mg and subdividing still seems very risky with such a strong hallucinogen.

You mentioned some success in complexing it by drying.
Was the subsequent experience similar to a quidded experience, or was it still different?

One thing to consider, maybe you could try separating the chlorophyll to purify the xtal. I don't know nearly enough about this, but maybe it could improve the efficiency of the complexing?

Best of luck with your future trials, this is exciting stuff!
"The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion." - Albert Camus
 
Loveall
#8 Posted : 9/6/2017 8:55:42 PM




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Greetings ॐ. Indeed, salvia is fascinating, I'm truly captivated by her.

Quote:
One thing I'd like to ask, when bio-assaying the crystal, how did you measure the dose?


The starting solution used 48mg of green cold acetone extract powder and 500mg of HPBCD. I guessed 50% salvinorin above, but based on more experienced folks comments in this the sticky cold acetone thread, let's go with 33%. So there are 48x0.33= 16mg of salvinorin total. After drying and scraping there was "mountain" consisting of several different things: (1) complexed HPBCD-salvinorin (which would weigh 64mg because of the molar weights), (2) excess HPBCD (which would weigh 452mg since we started with 500mg), (3) 32mg of chlorophyll, and (4)
(hopefully but we don't know for sure) 0mg of uncomplexed salvinorin. They key here is that we have 16mg of salvinorin in the big pile. I divided the pile into 4 groups of 4mg salvinorin each weighing a total of 548/4 = 137mg.

Now for dosing. Erowid mentions that 1g of dried leaf yields 2.5mg of salvinorin. It also mentions that 2g of dried leaf quidding yields mild effects, which would be 5mg of salvinorin. Quidding is gentler and lasts longer than smoking so dosages are about 10x more for the same peak (!). Therefore I put the first pile (4mg of theoretically complexed salvinorin) under my tongue and waited. A solid light experience came on, well beyond placebo. Pleasant sensation of skin tightening/warming and slightly altered metal state.

Quote:
You mentioned some success in complexing it by drying.
Was the subsequent experience similar to a quidded experience, or was it still different?


After the light experience subsided plus two more hours, I took the other 3 piles (the rest). This would be 12mg of salvinorin, equivalent to 4.8g of dried leaf quidding. A moderate dose is considered 6g of dried leaf. I indeed felt moderate effects if not more (comparing to previous quidding experiences). This could be because the first salvia experience may not have been gone completely or because of some reverse tolerance after the first dose. I was laying in my bed feeling like I was sinking in it, aware of the pressure in my back, then oddly feeling that I was vertical and my bed was pushing me forward. This was followed by intense childhood memories. I've had similar experiences when quidding before. Overall I would say it was equivalent to quidding and that the salvinorin potency by weight where roughly the same with this way of administration. But more experimentation is needed to be sure and to confirm all these preliminary observations.

Quote:
One thing to consider, maybe you could try separating the chlorophyll to purify the xtal. I don't know nearly enough about this, but maybe it could improve the efficiency of the complexing?


This is an interesting idea. Starting with chlorophyll free extract can also help understand this better and perform more precise experiments. For example, after complexation a non polar wash in a chemical that dissolves salvinorin but not HPBCD can be done. After decanting and drying the wash we could tell if all the salvinorin is complexed if we obtain no dry powder. We could lower the amount of excess HPBCD in the complexation procedure and check to see when free salvinorin starts to show up.

Quote:
Best of luck with your future trials, this is exciting stuff!


I'll carry your good wishes with me. My humble thanks.
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
Loveall
#9 Posted : 9/16/2017 3:55:55 PM




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Loveall wrote:
Did I complex the ethanol and also create alcohol powder? This is bad since it means there could be salvinorin that cannot find an empty HPBCD ring (ethanol and salvinorin are competing).


I believe I can now answer this particular question. It has been shown when working with testosterone (see attachment) that while ethanol does have affinity for HPBCD, and can compete with the drug in solution by slightly lowering solubility, after a good evaporation no ethanol remains in the HPBCD/Testosterone complex powder. This is consistent with the salvinorin tests above. Preliminary conclusion is that 75% ethanol is a viable cosolvent for Salvinorin/HPBCD complexation, but we still need independent confirmation and repeatability.

Edit: Future posts and updates will be done in the original salvinorin complexation thread started in 2012. Mods can consider merging the threads (request submitted).
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
 
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