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Is DMT a 5ht3 agonist? Options
 
downwardsfromzero
#61 Posted : 7/23/2017 10:52:16 PM

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Quote:
It appears DMT has little affinity for TAAR receptors (see table 2).

In the rat and the mouse, at least. Is there anything with cloned human receptors?

Thanks for checking!

I'm finding this topic interesting also because I have something of the opposite concern - I find it almost impossible to vomit (usually). When I have felt nauseous during an ayahuasca experience the inability to purge really detracted from the experience.

Getting a coherent overview of various mechanisms behind nausea is rather fascinating. For instance, how do emetine and its relatives produce nausea? A cursory search provides "stimulating the lining of the stomach" but does that necessarily mean 5HT3 receptors?




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nen888
#62 Posted : 7/24/2017 12:43:39 AM
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yes also thanks for checking dreamer042

i would have also thought the binding affinity paper earlier rules out any 5ht3 signalling by DMT..

mono amine oxidase is trying to disable amines in gut, liver, brain etc..our body is trying to keep these at bay..so purging as a means of clearing some while the system is deactivated makes the most logical sense to me, without the need for involvement of 5ht3, TAAR etc..it seems straightforward..some more controlled experiments could be done, where i'd put my bet on increased amine intake increasing nausea and purging..that's from my own experience.. they just aren't very fun experiments that's all..
 
syberdelic
#63 Posted : 7/24/2017 4:02:43 AM

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dreamer042
#64 Posted : 7/24/2017 4:41:12 AM

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Enzymatic reactions and effects at cellular receptors use different formulas.

Wikipedia breaks down the specific formulas for each situation.

This study was looking specifically for agonist action in these compounds, it's quite clear with even a cursory glance. Would you suggest the extremely high affinities for LSD, the 2C's, Psilocin, and the like at the 5ht2 receptors are representing antagonist activity at those receptors? Why then would that be the case for 5ht3 and DMT?
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Visual diagram for the administration of dimethyltryptamine

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dreamer042
#65 Posted : 7/24/2017 4:57:23 AM

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You know what I think I'm mistaken here. While they were specifically looking for agonist activity at 5ht2a and 5ht2c it looks they didn't really differentiate agonist or antaganist activity they specifically normalized only for relative affinity.

Quote:
Normalization

The raw Ki values are distributed over several orders of magnitude, thus a log transformation is a good first step in the analysis. In addition, higher affinities produce lower Ki values, thus it is valuable to calculate: pKi = −log10(Ki). Higher affinities have higher pKi values, and each unit of pKi value corresponds to one order of magnitude of Ki value. Table S4 presents the raw data transformed into pKi values. Generally, the highest Ki value generated by NIMH-PDSP is 10,000, which produces a pKi value of −4 (although a value of 10,450 was reported for 5-MeO-TMT). For non-PDSP data gathered from the literature, some Ki values greater than 10,000 are reported (i.e. 12,500, 14,142, 22,486, 39,409 and 70,000 for ibogaine).

When the primary assay did not produce >50% inhibition, the Ki value is treated as >10,000. When the primary assay hit, but the secondary assay was not performed, the Ki value is also treated as >10,000. If a secondary assay produced a Ki value significantly greater than 10,000, it is usually also reported as >10,000. The lowest Ki value in the data set of this study is 0.3 (lisuride at 5-HT1A) and the highest value is 70,000 (ibogaine at D3), thus collectively, the data in this study cover nearly six orders of magnitude of Ki values. However, ignoring values reported as >10,000, the Ki values for a single drug in this study never exceed four orders of magnitude in range.

The goal of the normalization used in this study is to factor out potency, in order to allow easy comparison of the multi-receptor affinity profiles of different drugs. The normalization will adjust the highest pKi value for each drug to a value of 4, and set all Ki values reported as >10,000 to a value of zero. Ki values actually measured as greater than 10,000 are not set to zero (i.e. 5-MeO-TMT and ibogaine). We will call this normalized value npKi. Let the maximum pKi value for each drug be called pKiMax. For each individual drug:

If Ki treated as >10,000, then npKi = 0
npKi = 4+pKi−pKiMax
With this normalization:

higher affinities have higher values
affinities too low to be measured will be reported as zero
for each drug, the highest affinity will be set to a value of 4
each unit of npKi value represents one order of magnitude of Ki value
potency is factored out so that drugs of different potencies can be directly compared
This normalization effectively factors out the absolute potency of each drug, and allows us to focus on the relative affinities of each drug at each receptor.
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Visual diagram for the administration of dimethyltryptamine

Visual diagram for the administration of ayahuasca
 
nen888
#66 Posted : 7/24/2017 8:19:44 AM
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it's been a while, this kind of study, for me too, so i again apologise for any errors on my part, and expect these to be corrected as this is the nexus..i haven't had much time but find the topic interesting

the paper i linked earlier https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih...pmc/articles/PMC2814854/
finds
Quote:
forty-two sites at which most compounds were assayed and at least one “hit” (Ki <10,000 nm)
.. that's purely for binding affinity which is indicative neither of agonist or antagonist activity..so a no hit >10,000nm means no affinity.. as i said before something could still be an antagonist with no binding affinity, but that would have to be tested..antagonists commonly block by binding to a site and stopping an agonist triggering it..in that study there was no 'hit' for 5ht3 with DMT, or any classic psychedelic tested..

i was in error on confirmed DMT TAAR affinity, however antagonism is uncertain..
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih...pmc/articles/PMC3155724/
Quote:
it is unclear whether TAARs mediate the psychedelic effect of trace amines, including DMT, because TAAR antagonists have not been tested in humans in this regard."


so, based on my understanding, it is possible DMT is a 5ht3 antagonist, but not agonist, based on the first quoted study..someone please correct me if i'm wrong

what could be searched for is if harmalas have 5ht3 affinity..?

now i think i should return to philosophical thought, as neurobiology's been a while for me

 
syberdelic
#67 Posted : 7/24/2017 6:04:58 PM

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Mindlusion
#68 Posted : 7/24/2017 6:28:49 PM

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syberdelic wrote:
The inhibitory constant (Ki)

I will link to this educational piece again. Like I said before, it's been a looong time since any formal education in this realm.
But from what I can tell, Ki applies only to inhibition (antagonism). If I'm wrong here, someone please tell me how and why. This is a key (bad pun) part of research I'm doing not only into psychedelics, so it would be good to know if I'm making such a mistake.

I know there is a strong desire to take DMT off the chopping block for nausea, but the evidence is not being kind to it. I have no vested interest in it either way. I just want to know what exactly the mechanism is so that I can combat it.


IC50, is the inhibition constant , measuring the inhibition of a certain enzyme or preexisting biological process, so this correlates to antagonism only.

Ki however, is measured through competition binding, where you measure the agonist vs the antagonist to get your curve. So while Ki is called the inhibitory constant, can be agonist or antagonist it just has to compete for the active site.

Also syberdelic, if you dose high enough of DPT, it consistently gives a terrifying experience equivalent to or many magnitudes greater than DMT hehe. Anxiety might not be the best way to judge
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dragonrider
#69 Posted : 7/24/2017 7:21:04 PM

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There's definately a connection between motionsickness and nausea, caused by psychedelics. People who suffer from motionsickness, almost Always suffer nausea when they take ayahuasca or cacti.

I have never experienced any nausea or discomfort with ayahuasca, but i have experienced it with iboga.

However, when iboga is taken, not all at once, but in small amounts, spread over 24 hours, i don't experience any discomfort either. This does not realy affect levels of ibogaïne and noribogaine in the blood, but the amounts of iboga the stomach gets to process at once, are a lot smaller.

So at least in the case of ibogaïne (wich is simmilar to harmala-alks, chemically and pharmacologically), a significant part of the nausea and discomfort must have something to do with how the digestive system reacts to the substance.
 
nen888
#70 Posted : 7/25/2017 2:26:55 AM
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the references people have made to 'motion sickness' and Harmalas, makes me think of this instant 'medical' net explanation:
Quote:
If you cannot see the motion your body's feeling, or conversely, if you cannot feel the motion your eyes see, then it is likely that the brain will get mixed signals and the person will develop some aspect or symptom of motion sickness.

.

ps.any researcher stumbling upon this thread in the future, histamine receptor/harmala interaction is another possible tangent..
 
syberdelic
#71 Posted : 7/25/2017 6:09:47 PM

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dreamer042
#72 Posted : 7/25/2017 7:11:09 PM

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This offers a good explanation.

http://facpub.stjohns.edu/~yoburnb/pages/dictimages/schild1.html
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Visual diagram for the administration of dimethyltryptamine

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syberdelic
#73 Posted : 7/26/2017 12:08:50 AM

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Mindlusion
#74 Posted : 7/26/2017 12:28:20 AM

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syberdelic wrote:
dreamer042 wrote:
This offers a good explanation.

http://facpub.stjohns.edu/~yoburnb/pages/dictimages/schild1.html


I'm sorry, but this explains nothing about Ki. And isn't the "i" for inhibitor?


they show the calculation of pA2 , by the plotting a range of conc for competition of agonist against antagonist. this is Ki because log(Ki)=−pA2

i is for inhibitor because your plotting against an inhibition background... the antagonist
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syberdelic
#75 Posted : 7/26/2017 2:41:15 AM

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Mindlusion
#76 Posted : 7/26/2017 2:53:48 AM

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syberdelic wrote:
So, if I'm understanding correctly: DMT does not do well in competing with antagonists for the 5HT3 receptor. ??

This still says nothing about whether it is a 5HT3 agonist or if it is, it's efficacy in agonising the receptor in the absence of an antagonist.
Essentially, if it is a 5HT3 agonist, a small dose of Ondansetron would probably be very effective in negating it's nauseating effects.



the use of the antagonist is simply to provide a standard to make the measurement... This is directly a measurement of the affinity, the tightness that DMT will bind to the 5HT3 receptor. The results would show that it does not bind very tightly. There are also other methods to evaluate noncompetitive and uncompetitive inhibition, if you were wondering. I may be totally out of context here I haven't read the entire thread yet just came to answer the question on Ki...

Quote:
This still says nothing about whether it is a 5HT3 agonist or if it is, it's efficacy in agonising the receptor in the absence of an antagonist.


This isn't the case, if it were, you would have to throw out the rest of pharmacology as a whole. You may not be understanding the concept of 'competition' , it doesn't have to 'displace' the other to bind, it is just a matter of what binds more frequently... which is direct correlated to the affinity of the drug to the receptor.

as for the question, I have always assumed nearly all of the psychedelics had some affinity for 5ht3, as a major factor in the 'tryptamine nausea' this assumption was backed when i found out bufotenine had higher affinity for 5ht3 (not certain if this is correct, though) which made sense to me since it always induced extreme nausea. As for antagonism/agonism I have no clue. Will take a look at these studies.
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syberdelic
#77 Posted : 7/26/2017 6:12:29 PM

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Mindlusion
#78 Posted : 7/26/2017 6:19:42 PM

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syberdelic wrote:
Mindlusion wrote:
Also syberdelic, if you dose high enough of DPT, it consistently gives a terrifying experience equivalent to or many magnitudes greater than DMT hehe. Anxiety might not be the best way to judge


I have a fair amount of experience with DPT. It's definitely a powerful substance that I have a lot of respect for. I find it much easier to leave reality with DPT. What I'm taking note of is it's lacking of the raw anxiety that often accompanies a DMT trip. This is at least true for me.


I definitely know where your coming from with DPT. It became my favorite psychedelic years ago because of how mild it was mentally but still produced intricate tryptamine visuals, extremely sensory, probably the most 'tactile' or 'sensory' psychedelic ive ever encountered. smoking low to medium doses was very pleasant and euphoric, boundaries dissolved in an ocean of experience.

However, at high doses (IV) all this changes. The only way i can attempt to describe it is if you suddenly had 1000000 new senses in addition to your usual 5, and they were all being simutaneously overwhelmed beyond capacity, all neurons firing with no break inbetween. It isn't the least bit comfortable, it is excruciatingly strange and alien, ever bit of fear you ever felt in a DMT breakthrough is there and magnified 1000000x
Expect nothing, Receive everything.
"Experiment and extrapolation is the only means the organic chemists (humans) currrently have - in contrast to "God" (and possibly R. B. Woodward). "
He alone sees truly who sees the Absolute the same in every creature...seeing the same Absolute everywhere, he does not harm himself or others. - The Bhagavad Gita
"The most beautiful thing we can experience, is the mysterious. The source of all true art and science."
 
downwardsfromzero
#79 Posted : 7/26/2017 8:04:06 PM

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syberdelic wrote:
[...]what we don't know about the 5HT3 receptors. Apparently, there are 5 different types of them, 5-HT3-A,B,C,D,&E. Most testing is done on 5-HT3A. But... ... apparently, they bind together to form many different combinations that have very different profiles. Different individuals have different combinations in differing amounts. Some of these combinations are possibly responsible for things like IBS and anxiety disorders and possibly even schizophrenia.

Interesting. I've had IBS and anxiety over the years but high nausea resistance in my adult years. When I was a kid I used to get terrible motion sickness but was cured by a Hell's Angel (!) and I'm now completely unaffected by seasickness in particular and barely affected by other forms of motion sickness.

Thus it would appear that the configuration of 5HT3 receptors is capable of adaptation - or at least the psychological response can be modified - and you may stand some chance of improving matters without resorting to out-and-out medication. How this might be occasioned, however, remains to be seen.




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― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
syberdelic
#80 Posted : 7/27/2017 12:09:55 AM

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