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Pharmahausca nausea Options
 
Josh-v
#1 Posted : 7/18/2017 10:50:03 AM

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So i have attwmpted pharma twice with limited success, so usually i have downed grinded up Syrian rue seeds then wait around an hour to take the freebase DMT
So the first time i got intense nausea as soon as i swallowed the DMT, managed to hold it down for about 10mins before it all came back up. I did however still get effect but not the equivalent of the dose i took

Now the next time i did the same thing with the rue but i mixed the DMT in vinegar to convert it and also took a few drops of essential lemon oil. Still only held it down for 10mins

Now i have worked out the nausea is not from the syrian rue because i never get nausea when i take it with mushrooms. Ayahuasca has given me nausea but never had a problem holding it down to absorb all the goodies.

So i think its the raw DMT that is the problem, it doesnt sit well in my stomach at all. My question is, is there anyway i can subdue the nausea long ebough to absorb the DMT with pharma?
Any body have any tips because i would really like to go 1all the way with pharma
 

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syberdelic
#2 Posted : 7/18/2017 4:37:00 PM

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This is very close to my experience as well. I will be experimenting shortly (a couple weeks) to see what the deal is with pharmahuasca nausea/vertigo/purge.

From my experience and research, it appears that the vertigo is caused by harmalas and the nausea/purge is caused by DMT. Many here on the nexus claim that harmalas are responsible for the whole gammut of physically unpleasant symptoms. Although I recognize this as a possibility, I also know that DMT is a 5-HT3 agonist.

It might also be possible that you and I are at one end of the bell curve for 5-HT3 and that many are not effected by DMT nausea from oral ROA.

I have had good luck treating the vertigo from harmalas with meclazine. I have not yet tried this with the addition of DMT. And another drug that I might try mixing in is ondansetron(Zofran), but with much caution.
 
chocobeastie
#3 Posted : 7/18/2017 5:08:58 PM

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Well, for one thing I do not recommend grinding up your rue seeds. It is a much more palatable brew if you just brew up whole seeds 3 times, simmering with a bit of ACV for 30 minutes each time.

Also, you might be using too many seeds, if you are getting nausea then likely you are taking too much rue! I find anything over 3.5g may induce nausea for some people.

I see the nausea as just being part of it, perhaps see it like your system being on an extreme amusement park ride its never been on before!

40 minutes seems to me to be the sweet spot to add the DMT, by this time you should be feeling the MAOI's.

To subdue the nausea, stay completely STILL. Maybe chew some ginger, that can help too.

Also, maybe actually try using a tea from a plant like Psychotria Viridis or Chaliponga, that may actually be more gentle and palatable than an extract!
 
syberdelic
#4 Posted : 7/18/2017 7:29:30 PM

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Josh-v wrote:
Now i have worked out the nausea is not from the syrian rue because i never get nausea when i take it with mushrooms. Ayahuasca has given me nausea but never had a problem holding it down to absorb all the goodies.

So i think its the raw DMT that is the problem, it doesnt sit well in my stomach at all. My question is, is there anyway i can subdue the nausea long ebough to absorb the DMT with pharma?


This is very key information to me and supports my hypothesis;
Harmalas cause vertigo, which can in turn cause nausea.
DMT causes pure nausea via 5-HT3 receptors in the stomach/gut.
The combination of the two or possibly just the DMT causes the purge.
I know that meclazine works well for the vertigo but I'm not sure about DMT nausea.

I have tried pharmahuasca once. it was 200mg harmine HCl and 75mg DMT freebase converted to citrate salt. The DMT was consumed 20 minutes after the harmine. It hit me very quickly at about T+5 minutes. Within a couple minutes of feeling the DMT, I had a moderate purge. I'm not sure how much of the DMT came up, but I still had a fairly potent trip. One thing that probably helped me keep most of the DMT in my system was that I did not gulp/chug my 12 oz. glass of DMT citrate water. I drank it slowly over a few minutes. From first swallow, my purge was probably more like T+10. It also could have been the volume of water that I used as the carrrier.
 
ShamensStamen
#5 Posted : 7/18/2017 8:53:46 PM
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It is the Harmalas that cause the nausea/vomiting, DMT does not. I'm telling you. Also if DMT did cause nausea/vomiting, you would expect more people to get nauseous and vomit from vaping/smoking it, but i've only heard of that happening, and experienced it personally, by vaping/smoking Changa (which it's because of the Harmalas).

Do some actual experimentation, and you will see that the Harmalas themselves can cause nausea/vomiting. And take DMT with Moclobemide and you will see there's no nausea/vomiting from the DMT. It's the Harmalas, it's something about the Harmalas even if you only get nauseous and vomit when the DMT is consumed. I've been there, i've experimented a lot, and i know the facts on this matter.

Believe what you want, but don't draw conclusions unless you've done some heavy experimentation as i have.


I've had the Harmala extract, as well as Rue itself, make me nauseous and vomit plenty of times on it's own without DMT, i've worked with it extensively and consumed it very regularly. I should know.

The only sure fire way i know to get rid of the Harmala-related nausea/vomiting and thus have nausea/vomit-free experiences, is by building up the Harmala reverse tolerance by consuming the Harmalas/Rue/Caapi regularly (at least 3 times a week at a good strong dosage) and as the Harmalas get stronger back the dosage down bit by bit as you go along, and within a couple weeks or so the nausea/vomiting will go away. If you can't do that, then idk what you're gonna do to get rid of the nausea/vomiting.

Also if trying Lemon EO for nausea/vomiting, it should be taken about an hour or so before taking Aya/Pharma, and about 6 drops should be used, in a capsule. You may have to consume the Lemon EO for a few days and let it build up in the body, but i think it should be fine taking it from the get go. It's definitely helped with the nausea/vomiting for me, but may alter the experience. Ginger has never worked for me. Cannabis is really good at helping with nausea/stomach pain but won't stop the purge.

Also remember if you try Zofran, make sure you try a low dose first, because Harmalas inhibit CYP2D6 and CYP1A2 which metabolizes the Zofran so a lower dosage would be needed than what's in the actual tablet. I made the mistake of taking either 4 or 8mgs of Zofran with Pharma and it turned into a very horrible and altered experience that didn't feel right at all, but say 1 to 2mgs, maybe even 500mcgs might be able to help, idk. But i personally would definitely recommend building up the reverse tolerance if you can, it's really not that difficult to do and is greatly rewarding with much less side-effects.

I'm trying to save other people the trouble of having to figure things out for themselves, even though it's what i did and it was pretty rewarding. But i figured i'd try to help others out so that they don't have to do nearly as much experimentation as i had to do, so when i say the Harmalas cause the nausea/vomiting, i'm telling you the truth. It's the Harmalas/Rue/Caapi that are labeled as purgatives, not the DMT-containing plant. With Moclobemide, DMT causes no nausea or vomiting ime, i've only vomited due to intensity. DMT with Harmalas though, can trigger the Harmala purge, regardless if you're using extracts. This has been discussed on this site a lot from what i've seen, and many people agree that it's the Harmalas that cause the nausea/vomiting, not the DMT. Some people think it's the DMT because it only happens when they consume the DMT, but if you experiment around with the Harmalas enough, and perhaps even try DMT with Moclobemide, you will see (and hopefully in the process understand) that the Harmalas cause the nausea/vomiting, DMT may trigger it, but ultimately it's the Harmalas that cause it. If you build up the Harmala reverse tolerance though, the stomach seems to be desensitized to the purgative effects of the Harmalas, and thus DMT can be consumed with Harmalas without the side-effects. If you can't see that it's the Harmalas that causes the nausea/vomiting, then i suggest you experiment around quite a bit and see for yourself.
 
syberdelic
#6 Posted : 7/19/2017 12:15:52 AM

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It does appear that moclomebide might also function as a 5-HT3 antagonist.
 
concombres
#7 Posted : 7/19/2017 12:44:17 AM

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ShamensStamen wrote:
It is the Harmalas that cause the nausea/vomiting, DMT does not. I'm telling you. Also if DMT did cause nausea/vomiting, you would expect more people to get nauseous and vomit from vaping/smoking it, but i've only heard of that happening, and experienced it personally, by vaping/smoking Changa (which it's because of the Harmalas).

Do some actual experimentation, and you will see that the Harmalas themselves can cause nausea/vomiting. And take DMT with Moclobemide and you will see there's no nausea/vomiting from the DMT. It's the Harmalas, it's something about the Harmalas even if you only get nauseous and vomit when the DMT is consumed. I've been there, i've experimented a lot, and i know the facts on this matter.

Believe what you want, but don't draw conclusions unless you've done some heavy experimentation as i have.


I've had the Harmala extract, as well as Rue itself, make me nauseous and vomit plenty of times on it's own without DMT, i've worked with it extensively and consumed it very regularly. I should know.

The only sure fire way i know to get rid of the Harmala-related nausea/vomiting and thus have nausea/vomit-free experiences, is by building up the Harmala reverse tolerance by consuming the Harmalas/Rue/Caapi regularly (at least 3 times a week at a good strong dosage) and as the Harmalas get stronger back the dosage down bit by bit as you go along, and within a couple weeks or so the nausea/vomiting will go away. If you can't do that, then idk what you're gonna do to get rid of the nausea/vomiting.

Also if trying Lemon EO for nausea/vomiting, it should be taken about an hour or so before taking Aya/Pharma, and about 6 drops should be used, in a capsule. You may have to consume the Lemon EO for a few days and let it build up in the body, but i think it should be fine taking it from the get go. It's definitely helped with the nausea/vomiting for me, but may alter the experience. Ginger has never worked for me. Cannabis is really good at helping with nausea/stomach pain but won't stop the purge.

Also remember if you try Zofran, make sure you try a low dose first, because Harmalas inhibit CYP2D6 and CYP1A2 which metabolizes the Zofran so a lower dosage would be needed than what's in the actual tablet. I made the mistake of taking either 4 or 8mgs of Zofran with Pharma and it turned into a very horrible and altered experience that didn't feel right at all, but say 1 to 2mgs, maybe even 500mcgs might be able to help, idk. But i personally would definitely recommend building up the reverse tolerance if you can, it's really not that difficult to do and is greatly rewarding with much less side-effects.

I'm trying to save other people the trouble of having to figure things out for themselves, even though it's what i did and it was pretty rewarding. But i figured i'd try to help others out so that they don't have to do nearly as much experimentation as i had to do, so when i say the Harmalas cause the nausea/vomiting, i'm telling you the truth. It's the Harmalas/Rue/Caapi that are labeled as purgatives, not the DMT-containing plant. With Moclobemide, DMT causes no nausea or vomiting ime, i've only vomited due to intensity. DMT with Harmalas though, can trigger the Harmala purge, regardless if you're using extracts. This has been discussed on this site a lot from what i've seen, and many people agree that it's the Harmalas that cause the nausea/vomiting, not the DMT. Some people think it's the DMT because it only happens when they consume the DMT, but if you experiment around with the Harmalas enough, and perhaps even try DMT with Moclobemide, you will see (and hopefully in the process understand) that the Harmalas cause the nausea/vomiting, DMT may trigger it, but ultimately it's the Harmalas that cause it. If you build up the Harmala reverse tolerance though, the stomach seems to be desensitized to the purgative effects of the Harmalas, and thus DMT can be consumed with Harmalas without the side-effects. If you can't see that it's the Harmalas that causes the nausea/vomiting, then i suggest you experiment around quite a bit and see for yourself.


I hate to burst your bubble here but just because DMT is not what seems to be causing nausea for you does not mean that is the case for everyone else.

I vomit & feel nausea 30-40% of the time when vaporizing pure DMT. Hell even LSD causes nausea for me.

This issue is complicated beyond what either you or syberdellic are making it out to be. Not only are there many compounding factors at play just with the pharmacological action of BOTH substances, but then you have the fact that brews are crude extracts full of tannins & other plant material that further complicates things & ontop of both there is the personal side of things that will differ for every individual like ex. nausea from physiological responses & potential physical problems with the digestive tract either related to digestion of the actives or some unrelated conditions with the stomache or intestines like acid reflux, chrones, IBS, etc.

I am not inclined to dismiss anyones research here entirely here because this is a puzzle i am struggling with personally as well.

I just know that in my case so far purified harmalas dissolved in solution has been extremely helpful in relieving a good chunk of the lingering nausea & continuous purging i get with brewed caapi or rue. In so far my tests have all been with pure harmalas & brewed MHRB, so i do believe pure DMT may be an improvement.

I am still not entirely convinced that there is a universal nausea relief recipe here though. I would not be surprised at all if what worked well for me did not work well for others.
 
ShamensStamen
#8 Posted : 7/19/2017 1:20:26 AM
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What i'm saying is that the nausea/vomiting is from the Harmalas, and that applies to all people. DMT or tannins may be a contributing factor in nausea, but the vomiting is due to the Harmalas.

Am i the only one around here who has done some serious experimentation to figure out the mechanisms at play? And while i realize you may think everyone is different in terms of what causes the vomiting, i'm telling you it's as simple as the Harmalas, for everyone. They don't call Harmalas purgatives for no reason.......

Also if you're vomiting from pure vaped DMT, you may be burning it.

And i myself have huge gut issues, and am very sensitive to things, and i'm here telling you, it's definitely the Harmalas that cause the majority of the nausea, and the vomiting. DMT does not cause vomiting, and does not cause nausea ime, tannins contribute to nausea, and it's the Harmalas that cause the majority of nausea, and the vomiting. When mixed with Moclobemide, neither Mimosa nor Acacia makes me throw up except for DMT's intensity, but no stomach issues what so ever. Does nobody else experiment around? Maybe some of the more hardcore members/users could chime in?

And as i and many others have stated before, even pure Harmala extracts, with a good enough dosage, will still cause nausea/vomiting, less nausea than the plants, but still nausea, and most definitely still vomiting, with or without DMT. The only for sure way that i have been able to get around the vomiting so far is by building up the Harmala reverse tolerance which does indeed do away with the nausea/vomiting/diarrhea/Harmala-related body load and motor function impairment. And as i said earlier, Cannabis helps greatly with nausea, but will not stop the purge. So i'd say go for a few puffs of Cannabis when feeling nausea, it's what i do.

DMT and other Psychedelics do get my bowels going forwards though and makes me have to take a crap, but no vomiting from DMT.
 
ShamensStamen
#9 Posted : 7/19/2017 1:29:01 AM
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I'm telling you, i know for a fact, that it's the Harmalas that cause the vomiting. Believe me or not, idc. I'm just trying to help, if you don't want or appreciate my help, i'll just not say anything and let people try to figure it out on their own. I wouldn't be saying it's a fact, if i didn't know it to be so.
 
Josh-v
#10 Posted : 7/19/2017 1:35:16 AM

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You are not wrong that the MAOI causes some nausea in most people but i can assure you that it is the DMT in which causes the instant purge in my case. As soon as the DMT hits my stomach after consuming there is an intense rush of nausea and subsequent purge.
I believe it is the fact that the DMT is to "raw" in the same way i find it difficult to hold down mushroom tea because of the almost instantaneous receptor binding efficiency.

What i think is (without the pharmacological and biochemistry) is that the DMT is hitting the receptors so quickly and so efficiently that it is causing rapid nausea, in much the same way pure MDMA makes people vomit because of the serotonin receptors within the stomach. This is why mushroom tea does the same thing but not whole mushrooms and is also why Ayahausca (B. cappi and Psychotria) doesn't cause instant nausea because of the time frame in which the alkaloids are being absorbed (slowly)

So i have two possible solutions to this and looking for some advice on the first one
1. Taking the DMT via the sublingual route to avoid it all hitting the stomach at once
2. Sipping the DMT mixture slowly over time however i am afraid it wont produce as deep experience
 
ShamensStamen
#11 Posted : 7/19/2017 1:43:07 AM
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Trust me, i completely understand what you mean when you say you think it's the DMT because it doesn't happen until the DMT is consumed. But what i'm saying, is that the Harmalas seem to make the stomach more sensitive, and when the DMT is consumed, it triggers the Harmala purge. Have you tried Moclobemide with DMT-containing plants? If not, i would suggest you not rush to conclusions about what causes the purge.

Idk quite how to explain it other than the Harmalas make the stomach more sensitive, and something happens when the DMT is consumed which triggers the Harmalas to cause the purge, but the DMT itself doesn't cause the purge. My impression is that perhaps the Harmalas are doing something with the 5-HT3 receptor, and when the DMT is consumed, it pushes the Harmalas to fully trigger the receptor thus causing the purge.

I've also taken Harmala extracts, and Rue seed, on their own without DMT and consistently get nausea/vomiting each and everytime depending on dosage, about an hour and a half to two hours after consuming them, and i encapsulate the Harmala extract or Rue seed, i don't make teas. But even with the DMT, i consistently purge an hour and a half to two hours in. I have had DMT cause the Harmala purge to be quickly after consuming the DMT, so i know what you mean, but it's definitely the Harmalas.
 
ShamensStamen
#12 Posted : 7/19/2017 1:55:30 AM
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Also, while i haven't attempted to use DMT sublingually, i have done your number 2 and drank a Mimosa or Acacia tea dose over the span of about 10 to 20 minutes. It does lessen the intensity a bit (which i don't think is necessarily a bad thing, for me at least), but doesn't seem to decrease the overall quality of the experience, it's just a bit more stretched out, but i've still vomited because of the Harmalas. I mainly use capsules for Harmala extract or Rue seed, and Mimosa or Acacia residue capsules, but i used to make Mimosa or Acacia egg white cleansed teas to remove the tannins but went back to residue capsules due to the egg white cleanse reducing potency.
 
ShamensStamen
#13 Posted : 7/19/2017 2:17:00 AM
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Believe me when i say that i've tried my best to figure out the cause of the nausea/vomiting. When i take this stuff, i take it very regularly, i was taking Harmalas and DMT daily/near daily for about 2 and a half years, and then every so often for another year until i decided to take my much needed break. I've also consumed Rue seed, and extract, daily for about 8 months at strong/heavy dosages.

By taking the stuff daily/regularly, i was able to learn a lot about how it worked. If i seriously thought it was possible for the DMT to be causing the vomiting, i would definitely say so. But ime, based upon my regular observations and experimentation, it led me to conclude that it's definitely the Harmalas that cause the nausea/vomiting, DMT may rush the purge along, but ultimately it's the Harmalas that cause the purge.

I myself, i have no problems building up the reverse tolerance because i'm such a frequent consumer when i dive into this stuff, but most people probably wouldn't want to take it as regularly even though some others have, at least it doesn't need to be taken daily though, the Harmalas can be taken like 3 times a week i would say, in order to build up the reverse tolerance, and higher/stronger Harmala dosages build up the reverse tolerance much more quickly compared to lower dosages.

I actually found the experimentation to be quite a natural process, trial and error, you learn as you go along, and you certainly do learn.
 
Josh-v
#14 Posted : 7/19/2017 3:35:56 AM

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Thanks heaps for the info Smile
I will defiantly try the reverse tolerance experiment next time around and report back on my findings. I will also try consuming the Rue in a different way other than swallowing the grinded seeds and will also attempt on consuming the DMT slowly rather than one big gulp
 
 
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