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The Truth Changa: A smoking blend containing Ayahuasca and other herbs Options
 
chocobeastie
#181 Posted : 7/19/2017 1:40:21 AM

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pitubo wrote:

Unfortunately, instead of being content with some credits and regards for coining a name and helping to popularize a concept, you come here on a grandiose mission to popularize yourself by claiming to have invented the concept, nay owning it.


That is just something you pulled from god knows where. I never said I OWNED anything! Rolling eyes I never tried to popularise myself here. Here has NEVER been a particulary friendly part of the internet for me, and I only post here very occaisonally.

The concept for you may be different to the concept to me, if you read my writings about changa, you will see what the concept is for me, and I've clarified that here, largely using ayahusca vine, infused DMT and other herbs.

I've repeatedly made it clear here, that I started doing this and popularising it. If you don't buy that, you don't have to! See if I care!

Quote:

What did you think was going to happen in response to you crowning yourself as the pope of changa? That we'd all bow in reverence?


Dear sir, I was never under any such illusions that the highly intelligent, supra smart arse, highly independent citizens of the DMT nexus would ever do anything but fart in my general direction as they generally have done!

Quote:

You may fantasize all you like about people being out to get you or wanting to mow you down because you're too big for their liking, but the simple reality is that the prospect of having someone publicly making the rounds pretending to represent dmt is going to horrify many of us


Yeah, well, you may miss my humour. This is water under the bridge. I've largely fulfilled my role in this world.

Quote:

if said person is someone who has a clear habit of irresponsibility in terms of actions, statements and dodging critical feedback on those. The reactions that you are getting here are perfectly logical and quite sensible, if you have the eyes to see the other perspective.


Excuse me? You do not know jack about me and my life and who I am and how I behave?

You are just a random person spewing discrediting words on the internet. Don't you ever dare to presume I take you very seriously at all.
 

Live plants. Sustainable, ethically sourced, native American owned.
 
chocobeastie
#182 Posted : 7/19/2017 2:02:02 AM

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You can find this in an extract of this book about how the matsigenka came into contact with Psychotria Viridis.

https://books.google.com...igenka%20DMT&f=false

The hauchipaeri trbe only added psychotria to their brew in 1960's after exposure to matsigenka who were the neighbouring tribe.

http://oxfordindex.oup.c...o/9780199341191.003.0002

"The ayahuasca brew (Banisteriopsis caapi and Psychotria viridis) was introduced very recently among the Matsigenka and Yora (Nahua) indigenous people of southern Peru. The Matsigenka used Banisteriopsis liana previously, however they did not learn to add the potent Psychotria admixture in preparing the brew until the 1950s. Introduction of ayahuasca to the Yora (Nahua) was even more recent and drastic. Shortly after their contact and decimation by contagious diseases beginning in 1985, the Yora adopted ayahuasca and abandoned previous shamanic substances and rituals. These two case studies demonstrate how quickly and completely ayahuasca shamanism can be adopted, supporting the idea that widespread ayahuasca use even among indigenous populations may be fairly recent. The studies also attest to diversity and dynamism in indigenous practices on par with the differences observed among various urban ayahuasca practices."


 
pitubo
#183 Posted : 7/19/2017 2:16:40 AM

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chocobeastie wrote:
I've repeatedly made it clear here, that I started doing this and popularising it. If you don't buy that, you don't have to! See if I care!

It has been repeatedly been made clear, by multiple people, that your claims of origination and your actions regarding popularizing were seen as dodgy.

I sat through half a public presentation by you (on youtube, thankfully while I was doing something else that was actually useful) so I am clearly convinced that I am not going to buy your book or any other merchandise that you are planning to sell.

chocobeastie wrote:
Quote:
if said person is someone who has a clear habit of irresponsibility in terms of actions, statements and dodging critical feedback on those. The reactions that you are getting here are perfectly logical and quite sensible, if you have the eyes to see the other perspective.

Excuse me? You do not know jack about me and life and who I am and how I behave?

Your behavior on this forum is quite apparent. I am not saying that I am assuming that any insinuation or accusations made against you or your past behavior are a proven fact. Your responses here to those, however, are.

chocobeastie wrote:
You are just a radnom person spewing discrediting words on the internet. Don't you ever dare to presume I take you very seriously at all!

I am a random person on the internet questioning some of your statements on the internet and even vehemently disagreeing with a few. This side effect is to be expected when making statements on the internet. If that bothers you, then don't make statements on the internet.

Would it surprise you if not only I, but many other people here, found that a good part of the words discrediting you actually come from you yourself?
 
SnozzleBerry
#184 Posted : 7/19/2017 2:30:23 AM

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chocobeastie wrote:
You can find this in an extract of this book about how the matsigenka came into contact with Psychotria Viridis.

https://books.google.com...igenka%20DMT&f=false

The hauchipaeri trbe only added psychotria to their brew in 1960's after exposure to matsigenka who were the neighbouring tribe.

http://oxfordindex.oup.c...o/9780199341191.003.0002

"The ayahuasca brew (Banisteriopsis caapi and Psychotria viridis) was introduced very recently among the Matsigenka and Yora (Nahua) indigenous people of southern Peru. The Matsigenka used Banisteriopsis liana previously, however they did not learn to add the potent Psychotria admixture in preparing the brew until the 1950s. Introduction of ayahuasca to the Yora (Nahua) was even more recent and drastic. Shortly after their contact and decimation by contagious diseases beginning in 1985, the Yora adopted ayahuasca and abandoned previous shamanic substances and rituals. These two case studies demonstrate how quickly and completely ayahuasca shamanism can be adopted, supporting the idea that widespread ayahuasca use even among indigenous populations may be fairly recent. The studies also attest to diversity and dynamism in indigenous practices on par with the differences observed among various urban ayahuasca practices."



OK...but your initial claim was:

chocobeastie wrote:
Did you know a lot of amazonian tribal people only started to use DMT admixtures in the last few decades?


So I have two questions:

1) Is two or three indigenous groups "a lot of amazonian tribal people?" Bearing in mind that numbers and populations are all relative.

2) Is 50+ years ago "the last few decades?" It appears that the Yora were more recent than that, but that's a singular tribe, no?
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chocobeastie
#185 Posted : 7/19/2017 2:35:27 AM

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Yeah, I was seen as dodgy by the dodgy! I can agree to that. I've never had the issue of people I actually respect taking issue with my actions and words. I'm not saying I'm without flaws, but the people I respect normally have compassion and understanding and are actually cool people who can put things in perspetive.

All you are hearing from here is some disgruntled folks and trolls who have an agenda to spin. Really, I don't have more time for this little corner of the internet and I actually have some work I need to do Smile
 
chocobeastie
#186 Posted : 7/19/2017 2:51:10 AM

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Snozzleberry,

My initial claim was going from memory, of something that I doubt very few people here would have any idea about!

My basic point is that some tribes decided to break tradition to add DMT to their ayahuasca when it was being argued that ayahuasca is all you need and how can you argue with the longstanding traditions? The answer is, some tribes have broken those long standing traditions, because the vine works better with DMT. Everyone knows that.

Also, it is interesting to note that ayahuasca is new to many tribes.

"Finally, the claim of vast antiquity for the use of ayahuasca is inconsistent with the number of Amazonian indigenous people who report that they have come in contact with the ayahuasca drink only recently and often within living memory—the Amuesha (Santos-Granero, 1991), the Arakmbut (Gray, 1996), the Cashibo (Frank, 1994, p. 181), the Ese Eja (Alexiades, 2000), the Guarani (Langdon & Santana de Rose, 2012), the Kukama (Rivas, quoted in Brabec de Mori, 2011, p. 46 n. 22), the Kulina (Pollock, 2004), the Matsigenka (Shepard, 1998; 2005, p. 201-203)."

http://www.singingtothep...on-origins-of-ayahuasca/
 
nen888
#187 Posted : 7/19/2017 3:09:31 AM
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chocobeastie wrote:

All you are hearing from here is some disgruntled folks and trolls who have an agenda to spin.

No, you are hearing from a range of people presenting different bits of evidence or opinions that discredit many of your assertions..if some people are disgruntled it's largely by how you've expressed yourself in this forum, and other media..or by claims of various actions of yours which you partly confirm yourself, which are ethically questioned..again you use the 'all these people out to get you' move which is like a tactic of classic narcissistic behaviours ..no one here, except maybe acacaya, has any personal 'agenda' regarding you or your claims to have 'invented' changa, the agenda at the nexus is to try and verify accurate information..no, people, people on the nexus, or in any entheogenic peer groups, are not out to get you chocobeastie..
they are responding to very particular kinds of claims you are making on the internet..it's just that the more public you go with these claims, the more people with different kinds of evidence, or recollections which differ from your version of history and culture emerge..to keep using the 'everyones got a grudge' retort is disingenuous, and i don't think bares up to scrutiny..

 
pitubo
#188 Posted : 7/19/2017 3:23:44 AM

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chocobeastie wrote:
I'm not saying I'm without flaws, but the people I respect normally have compassion and understanding and are actually cool people who can put things in perspetive.

I honestly tried to show you perspective. A perspective with compassion and understanding, but not just for you alone. Apparently, you didn't like that perspective. Oh well, I tried.

chocobeastie wrote:
All you are hearing from here is some disgruntled folks and trolls who have an agenda to spin.

Yeah, how right you are. It must be their agenda to project their own repressed unconscious onto you. How unfair. Clearly you came here without any agenda. And you don't spin. Ever.
 
SnozzleBerry
#189 Posted : 7/19/2017 1:05:43 PM

omnia sunt communia!

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chocobeastie wrote:
My basic point is that some tribes decided to break tradition to add DMT to their ayahuasca when it was being argued that ayahuasca is all you need and how can you argue with the longstanding traditions?


I think you may be slightly misrepresenting the point pitubo made, which was not that "ayahuasca is all you need" but rather that DMT admixtures are optional.

pitubo wrote:
...amazon people who have for generations...insisted that dmt is entirely optional to ayahuasca!


I think this point might be more or less supported depending on which group of people is being discussed, but that's just my opinion Smile

Interestingly enough, Shepard's passage from Bia's book reveals a bit more.

Glenn Shepard wrote:
The Matsigenka remember the former admixtures and sometimes add them to the contemporary Banisteriopsis-Psychotria preparation to enhance its effects. But, other than this occasional and perhaps nostalgic reference to the older tradition, Psychotria has completely replaced the prior admixtures. No one has prepared Banisteriopsis brew without Psychotria since the late 1950s or early 1960s. I have been unsuccessful in eliciting specific descriptions of the prior brew's effects, since the Matsigenka are generally reluctant to speak in detail about such experiences. When I have asked older men about the former brew, they mention that it, too, is strongly "intoxicating" (kepigari) and takes the shaman to the spirit world as effectively as the contemporary Psychotria-based brew. The main difference they note is the consistency, always referred to as thick and honey like, and the longer time needed for preparation. The Psychotria-based brew, by contrast, can be consumed when still in liquid form after about four to six hours of cooking, with no need to reduce it to a thicker consistency. Although the reduced preparation time is certainly a factor, I assume that the Psychotria-based ayahuasca brew is preferred today, indeed used exclusively, because it provides stronger and more consistent intoxicating effects than the older formula.


So, interestingly enough, despite Shepard's reporting that the few elders he's been able to get to comment on the matter have told him that "the former brew...is strongly intoxicating," for some reason, he then asserts that he assumes that "the Psychotria-based ayahuasca brew is preferred today...because it provides stronger and more consistent intoxicating effects than the older formula." Unfortunately, he doesn't give any insight into the reasoning behind his assumption, so it's hard to know exactly why he's making it and what evidence supports the assumption. I'm not sure why he wouldn't provide his reasoning, but it does leave us a bit in the dark.


You state that you believe that:

chocobeastie wrote:
The answer is, some tribes have broken those long standing traditions, because the vine works better with DMT. Everyone knows that.


However, I would contend that this is not so much about what "everyone knows" a much as personal preferences. At Ozora, you and Giorgio Samorini were both adamant in your dislike of harmala effects and "side effects" for both oral brews and changa. Even in this thread, I believe you have referenced your dislike for harmala-heavy changa and ayahuasca. Giorgio mentioned his quest for a "perfecthuasca" where the harmala effects were essentially not apparent. I expressed dissent with those positions at the time.

Personally, I find the higher dose harmala experience to have much greater therapeutic value, for me. In talking and comparing doses with other folks on this site, I know that I am not alone in that view, but I would not claim that more or less harmalas are "better" or "worse" but rather that it depends on the person (or group) in question and the effects they are looking for. Actually, I would contend that one of the things that makes tryptamine/RIMA combinations so versatile is that you have at least two components you can adjust to modulate the desired effects from any given experience.

Imo, there's really no way to make overarching statements about the "ideal" especially given the difference between human metabolisms and MAO as well as personal desires. I know people who have no interest in taking DMT at this point in their lives, who still find tremendous benefits from utilizing harmala-only preparations. Would adding DMT to their preparations make it "better?" It seems unlikely to me as that's not what they're looking for, so how could it be "better?" I think it's important to remember that there is no universal experience or desire to have X experience. Rather, people should do what's best for them.



As a final aside, I don't know that anyone in this thread is claiming "vast antiquity" in the sense of omnipresence of ayahuasca throughout Amazonian cultures over human history. But, as Nen and Jamie wrote about in a prior Nexian article and as we have discussed in many threads, numerous plant decoctions, snuffs, and smoking blends containing various tryptamines and betacarbolines have been around for millenia. How widespread they were is of less interest to me, personally, than the fact that we can trace that thread back pretty far. Hell, looking at contemporary times, psychedelic users are a tiny percentage of the population. Perhaps it's not so surprising to find that perhaps that's nothing new, eh?

Just a thought Smile
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chocobeastie
#190 Posted : 7/19/2017 6:38:43 PM

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Certainly the caapi by itself as a brew can be more intoxicating in the way that caapi is. I have had a strong caapi brew after a 10 day fast and then it was visionary to some degree.

Quote:

I know people who have no interest in taking DMT at this point in their lives, who still find tremendous benefits from utilizing harmala-only preparations. Would adding DMT to their preparations make it "better?" It seems unlikely to me as that's not what they're looking for, so how could it be "better?"


The DMT is just as therapeutic as the caapi, just dose a lot lower than you get visionary effects for. Did you know that for the most part, the ayahuasca churches in Brazil never really give visionary doses to people?

I'm all for 15mg or 30mg or even 60mg doses with caapi when using larger amounts of caapi, I think its more therapeutic than just the caapi. The caapi by itself I've never found to have the healing power.

I enjoy high ayahusaca doses and low DMT doses sometimes, but have never gotten into this with changa. I can appreciate how people like the depth and earthiness, this is what may be more needed than the cerebral hyperdimensional blast of DMT. But I think there is a balance, I see the DMT as masculine and the Ayahuasca as feminine, they work better together in my opinion. The Ayahuasca churches would never consider taking straight caapi for example, for them both elements are required.

BTW, Syrian Rue and Acacia phyllodes I am finding to be my favorite thing at the moment and getting the best results with people. There is another guy who started brewing the same time as me way back when who is reporting the same.
 
Bancopuma
#191 Posted : 7/26/2017 4:09:11 PM

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chocobeastie wrote:
I'm all for 15mg or 30mg or even 60mg doses with caapi when using larger amounts of caapi, I think its more therapeutic than just the caapi. The caapi by itself I've never found to have the healing power.


Different strokes for different folks I think. I have a friend who has used ayahuasca in the past, but these days he prefers and claims to get much more therapeutic/healing effect from the caapi alone, and prefers it alone without the addition of DMT. I've drank ayahuasca with an Ecuadorian shaman on numerous occasions, and he used vine heavy brews with only a little DMT presence...in his view it's the caapi vine that is the main healing agent, and DMT visions can be a distraction from the healing work. It's also worth mentioning that the upregulation of platelet serotonin transporters following ayahuasca use which is linked to its long term afterglow or antidepressant effect is associated with the beta-carboline alkaloids, and tetrahydroharmine (THH) in particular. I'm not doubting that the DMT component can assist when it comes to the healing aspect of the ayahuasca brew, but it certainly isn't necessary, and the caapi is in the driver's seat when it comes to the overall healing or therapeutic effect I think.
 
The_Sheriff
#192 Posted : 8/4/2017 6:54:28 AM

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The_Sheriff wrote:
chocobeastie wrote:
But at the time, a lot of people were skeptical or “didn’t get it”, so it wasn’t obvious to them at all, and many people were skeptical the ayahuasca would have any effect at all when smoked with the DMT at the same time! Ott was one of those people.


and then:

chocobeastie wrote:
I would consider it an early prototype of Changa...whoever did this was totally on the right track and obviously had a very lateral mind!


I was present when Mr Ott came to Australia, in fact I was his personal security and my brief was to keep and filter undesirable opportunists away. I was also present when Mr Ott first smoked acacia crystal.

There were others present but not the one who says he invented changa. In fact he was on the exclusion list and was not allowed to talk to Mr Ott as he had already displayed parasitic, opportunistic behavior. eg stripping trees in the forest

After Mr Ott had smoked acacia crystal he was asked what he thought. He said "Great colour, it'd last longer if you added caapi leaf."

It was never an invention it was a simple passing on of positive information. No price attached.

Mr Ott was never a skeptic he actually came up with the idea and then fringelings picked up half the idea and thought they'd make their own special recipes. Of which I saw and there was no caapi leaf in, they just looked like chaff.

If you don't believe me, ask Mr Ott.





None of the above was addressed by chocobeastie or acaya. Fact is the original caapi acacia blend was called Dreamleaf which gained a great reputation but was never a commercial enterprise, and this appeared shortly after the Johnathan Ott visit. The mix called "changa" was a cheap knockoff with no caapi... passionflower was used with other herbs and it looked like chaff. It was weak, heavily promoted to youth at festivals and this is one of the many reasons people are upset at the promoter.

The response was just ramblings and disrespect by chocobeastie and others when talking about Mr Ott and nen888 (appointed Guardian of the Acacia by the local Indigenous) and shows their lack of real contribution and understanding on many levels.

P.S acaya I'm not your cuz or your bro you obviously don't know me.
 
chocobeastie
#193 Posted : 8/4/2017 9:59:00 AM

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Sheriff,

I know who you are and you come off as a bit confused online. Laughing

So Ott came to Australia in January 2005. Changa was well underway before that time. Like I said, myself and a friend both gave it to him then.

I know the guy who dubbed it "Dreamleaf" and you would know who he is too. This name never really took off except with some inner circle people. Changa did.

The man who called it "dreamleaf" did however spend some time spreading it around the world. I think some people didn't like the name changa because it sounded a bit ocker, a bit too aussie, so that's where the name dreamleaf came into the picture.

Changa always had caapi in it, and was 20% DMT at the time. I found that plenty strong and the point was, it was supposed to be a more gentler form of DMT, that was the whole idea in the beginning Smile
 
The_Sheriff
#194 Posted : 8/13/2017 5:43:03 AM

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You say you know me, if you do you'd know I'm certainly not confused.

After some investigation your timelines prove you wrong.

Quote:
Changa always had caapi in it, and was 20% DMT at the time. I found that plenty strong and the point was, it was supposed to be a more gentler form of DMT, that was the whole idea in the beginning Smile


This is a lie.

I saw a sample of this so called "changa" two years after Mr Otts visit and it certainly did not contain any caapi [you used passiflora] and the mix barely produced a threshold experience [not plenty strong] according to a number of reports.

Again you are confused as the whole idea in the beginning, courtesy of Mr Ott, was to make it last longer [see earlier post].

So you and your "friend" couldn't have, even if you had the opportunity to, you didn't give Mr Ott "changa". Another lie.
 
dmusicaltrancistor
#195 Posted : 12/14/2017 9:54:33 AM

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chocobeastie wrote:


Well nobody taught me how to ID acacias or extract alkaloids from Acacias...



Really choco thats a bold claim so you just magically knew how to do an extraction with no knowledge of chemistry beforehand? youclaim to have this knowledge without being "taught" science

I think you should take a strip from stametts and learn what being humble is
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Psilosopher?
#196 Posted : 12/14/2017 1:41:29 PM

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NOOOO! NOT THIS THREAD AGAIN! ARGH!
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
 
dragonrider
#197 Posted : 12/14/2017 5:34:10 PM

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Sometimes, brownstone looks a bit like biscuit.

I was actually the first person to notice this.
 
downwardsfromzero
#198 Posted : 12/14/2017 6:40:31 PM

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Well, I discovered that fried egg butties are a vital component in activating nutmeg tincture Razz




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
downwardsfromzero
#199 Posted : 1/26/2020 9:42:11 PM

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PSYCHOZYME13 wrote:
[...]

That's all very nice. Are you actually Julian Palmer or are you merely in the habit of copy-pasting unattributed quotes wholesale in the hope of looking good?

Who Should be Serving Psychedelics? January 15, 2020 by Julian Palmer

The way to have posted this would be to start a thread in the Welcome area (because you're a new member and can't post in the Ayahuasca section yet) entitled something like: "Re: Some thoughts on working with shaman's." or maybe "Interesting article about serving ayahuasca", or whatever. In the first case you would be able to request that your post be added to the thread of that title: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=30503 where it might be considered to be at home. In the second case you could provided a link to the Reset.me article, rather than - or in addition to - copying the whole article.

Either way, it does a disservice to be posting in the wrong thread and I'm not sure it's entirely repaired the train wreck here.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Tony6Strings
#200 Posted : 1/27/2020 4:06:35 AM

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Have read all 10 pages of this. What a thread. BULLSHARKS!!
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