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Sickness free Ayahuasca Options
 
dreamer042
#1 Posted : 7/2/2017 7:35:16 AM

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I've never understood this pursuit. I'm curious as to the reasoning, what is to be gained here?

If you want a psychedelic experience without the bodily work of ingesting plant medicines, take LSD.

Adding a bunch of pharmaceuticals to your huasca to combat the most important part of ingesting "la purga" seems kinda nonsensicle to me.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily...

Visual diagram for the administration of dimethyltryptamine

Visual diagram for the administration of ayahuasca
 

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ShamensStamen
#2 Posted : 7/2/2017 7:35:50 AM
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It's the Harmalas themselves that cause the nausea/vomiting and is a 5-HT3 receptor agonist (or it seems that way). DMT doesn't seem to agonize the 5-HT3 receptors, i've also taken DMT-containing plants with Moclobemide for nausea/vomit-free experiences. Also it should be noted that vaped DMT in itself doesn't seem to cause nausea/vomiting, but Harmala-heavy Changa can. In fact, it's the Harmalas/Caapi/Rue that is the purgative, not the DMT-containing plant.

The Harmala-related nausea/vomiting goes away if the Harmalas are regularly consumed (a few times a week, for a couple or so weeks), then there's no more nausea or vomiting. The Harmalas also seem to make the stomach a bit more sensitive (atleast until the reverse tolerance is built up), which means the tannins and such can have more of an impact on the nausea ime/imo.

I've tried Lemon EO with Harmala extracts and Rue seed capsules, and it does help to reduce nausea and prevent vomiting, but it may alter the DMT part of the experience so if you try it out let us know how it goes. I take Lemon EO pretty regularly (from 4 to 12 drops, usually about 6 to 8 drops) but have only taken it a few times with oral DMT/Aya so i'm not sure how much of an impact it may have on the DMT, but it goes alright with the Harmalas.

One thing you could try is taking Lemon EO with the Harmalas/Rue/Caapi so you can build up the Harmala reverse tolerance without suffering from nausea/vomiting, and then when the reverse tolerance is built up stop taking the Lemon EO and take the Harmalas/Rue/Caapi again to make sure the nausea/vomiting is gone even with a strong dosage, and then add the DMT to the mix. Be aware though that the Lemon EO seems to stick around in the system for about 2 days because Limonene has a bit of a long half-life.
 
tseuq
#3 Posted : 7/2/2017 8:52:50 AM

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Offtopic:
@ShamensStamen, Grats to full membership!

tseuq
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ShamensStamen
#4 Posted : 7/2/2017 9:16:59 AM
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tseuq wrote:
Offtopic:
@ShamensStamen, Grats to full membership!

tseuq


Thanks Smile
 
syberdelic
#5 Posted : 7/2/2017 10:01:33 AM

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Jees
#6 Posted : 7/2/2017 10:22:35 AM

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Purge or not is a dead beaten horse, my idea is that a premature reflex vomit is not "La Purga". I do things to avoid that, and most people don't like to loose dose after 10 - 20 minutes. I usually never redose, maybe thats why.
On the peak, where nothing much cant be lost anymore, I welcome a purge, it always turns the energy sphere for the better. If body is okay but energetic sphere is a tad off, I sometimes use the finger to induce giving up some minor slimes but this tends to be quite efficient nonetheless in forcing a change.
 
concombres
#7 Posted : 7/2/2017 1:46:38 PM

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I should have some pure harmine in the next few weeks. I am going to try meclizine with that alone first & see how it works for me.

The ondansetron may be a little difficult to get but my doc may write a prescription because i have some stomache issues already. This is the one i am really hopeful for working though because IMO the nausea from harmalas alone is managable & no big deal at the doses i use, once the DMT is added thats when it becomes difficult to hold the medicine down long enough for a strong trip.
 
tatt
#8 Posted : 7/2/2017 2:55:42 PM
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dreamer042 wrote:
I've never understood this pursuit. I'm curious as to the reasoning, what is to be gained here?

If you want a psychedelic experience without the bodily work of ingesting plant medicines, take LSD.

Adding a bunch of pharmaceuticals to your huasca to combat the most important part of ingesting "la purga" seems kinda nonsensicle to me.


Agreed
 
ShamensStamen
#9 Posted : 7/2/2017 3:16:20 PM
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concombres wrote:
IMO the nausea from harmalas alone is managable & no big deal at the doses i use, once the DMT is added thats when it becomes difficult to hold the medicine down long enough for a strong trip.


The reason the nausea/vomiting increases when DMT is added is because the Harmala's purgative effects are still in play. Build up the Harmala/Harmine reverse tolerance and there won't be any nausea/vomiting when DMT is consumed.

I've taken Harmalas/Rue a lot, even went as far as taking the Rue daily for 8 months, it's definitely the Harmalas that are the source of nausea/vomiting. Even if they don't cause much of anything by themselves at a certain dosage, they still have a purgative effect and make your stomach sensitive so when DMT is consumed the purgative effect kicks in. DMT consumed with Moclobemide has no nausea or vomiting.
 
dreamer042
#10 Posted : 7/2/2017 4:26:54 PM

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syberdelic wrote:
I think that believing the purge has any more power than to rid the system of parasites is delusional just like thinking that you've had a conversation with a dead person is delusional. That is my opinion and I don't expect anyone to share it.

If you don't understand the pursuit, then leave it alone.

I think to expect to ingest a substance known widely throughout it's range of historical use as THE PURGE while expecting to avoid or bypass, well you know, purging, is a less than rational pursuit itself. But that's just like, my opinion man. Pleased

I truly don't understand the thought process here, which is why I asked for an explanation. Question still stands, what is your reasoning? What is the point of trying to overcome the natural and well known mechanisms of these particular substances (via combining these MAO inhibiting compounds with pharmacueticals that have had garnered serotonin syndrome warnings issued by the likes of Health Canada, The World Health Organization, and the FDA. 1,2,3) rather than just simply taking LSD or 4-AcO-DMT or something like that?

I'm genuinely interested to know the why here and would appreciate some insight into the reasoning process rather than passive aggressive retorts and strawman fallacies.

I'll go ahead and bite on the pharmacology here too.

DMT has little, if any, affinity for 5ht3 receptors. (source) Harmalas also have little affinity for 5ht3 receptors, and really 5ht receptors in general. (source) A study investigating the role of the interaction of harmaline with 5ht3 receptors in avoidance memory utilizing a rat model basically found that harmaline pre-treatment enhanced memory acquisition and concluded this was due to heightened extracellular serotonin levels because of the MAOI effects of harmaline, rather than any direct binding of harmaline at the 5ht3 receptor.(source) So the pharmacokinetics of these compounds don't really support the use of a 5ht3 antaganist either.

Which leads me back to the initial question, what exactly is the reasoning process here?
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily...

Visual diagram for the administration of dimethyltryptamine

Visual diagram for the administration of ayahuasca
 
Jees
#11 Posted : 7/2/2017 5:28:10 PM

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syberdelic wrote:
I think that ... is delusional just like thinking that ... is delusional
How can you enter the realms and what you find there is thus not delusional?
Or do you allow yourself a minute of delusion on such occasions? How does that work for you? I'm truly curious.

- edit:
syberdelic wrote:
I think that believing the purge has any more power than to rid the system of parasites is delusional...
I was first hesitant to say but: well this proves you don't know what you're talking of, sorry. You have never experienced "La Purga", which is n.o.t.h.i.n.g like a purge you have in mind. One does not leave La Purga unchanged, permanently. I sincerely hope you get to know later on Thumbs up

PS: I realize this^^^ sounds condescending but could not find another way to say it, it's way too clear black on white Embarrased
Btw I always vomit on classic aya, most of them are not La Purga at all, LP is a very special occasion with a very special outcome, it comes from somewhere else, almost alien. I feel safe as you must be out of delusional tags by now Pleased
 
syberdelic
#12 Posted : 7/2/2017 9:00:41 PM

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ShamensStamen
#13 Posted : 7/2/2017 9:25:17 PM
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I'm telling you, if you build up the Harmala reverse tolerance by consuming Harmalas fairly regularly, the purge will go away. I think more people should experiment around with and learn from just the Harmalas for a bit, and they will learn all they need to know about "the purge".

I too, view the nausea/vomiting as unnecessary suffering, and the only sure fire way i've found to get around that without altering the experience in some way, is by building up the reverse tolerance.

The Harmalas by themselves at a high enough dosage will cause nausea/vomiting, but with a common dosage you might not get any nausea/vomiting at all, but once the DMT is added the Harmala-related nausea/vomiting happens, if you build up the reverse tolerance though, there is no more nausea/vomiting when the DMT is added.

I've taken Harmalas a lot so i know for a fact it's the Harmalas that cause the nausea/vomiting/diarrhea, and not the DMT. I've also worked with oral DMT too many times to count, so i've done a great deal of experimentation and i'm telling you, the best way is to consume the Harmalas regularly. If you can't consume the Harmalas regularly, then good luck on your mission to find another way around the nausea/vomiting and if you do come up with something let us know, especially if it doesn't alter the experience in an undesirable way. But as far as i know, the best way to get around the nausea/vomiting is taking the Harmalas regularly and building up the reverse tolerance, the nausea/vomiting/diarrhea will go away.
 
syberdelic
#14 Posted : 7/2/2017 9:58:10 PM

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Mister_Niles
#15 Posted : 7/2/2017 10:28:37 PM

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My opinion: It's called La Purga for a reason. Embrace it. Or as dreamer42 suggested: Take LSD.
Trying to mitigate unpleasant side effects with pharmaceuticals may get your ass kicked all over hyperspace. It happened to me and it's happened to others I know. But you can try and work it out if you want to. You could even find a way to make Aya recreational. who knows?
Welcome Home Mister_Niles. We've Been Waiting For You.


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ShamensStamen
#16 Posted : 7/2/2017 11:52:45 PM
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syberdelic wrote:
Thanks for adding useful information.
Building a tolerance to harmalas is not really feasible for me, but maybe at some point in the future. To be honest, if the combo is effective at relaxing the nausea significantly, the impact on the trip would have to be pretty significant to make it an untenable combo. My experiments will commence toward the end of the month and I will report.


Well i wish you the best of luck in finding another way around the nausea/vomiting, and if you do, be sure to let us know if you've found a solution because i for one would greatly appreciate it. Definitely experiment around, but be careful/cautious what you mix, even though some things can definitely be safely mixed and Harmalas are a good bit safer than most realize, but some things definitely shouldn't be mixed with it. I don't think anti-cholinergic medications or 5-HT3 receptor antagonists would be an issue, just make sure to account for dosage (like if something is metabolized by CYP2D6 or CYP1A2, you'd want a lower dosage of the medication due to the potentation of it by the inhibition of those enzymes by the Harmalas).

As for the reverse tolerance, if you do try it out sometime, you can get away with taking the Harmalas maybe 2 to 3 times a week for a couple or so weeks to build up the reverse tolerance, you can even consume it before bed imo. And remember the Lemon EO can be used to block out the Harmala-related nausea/vomiting if you get any, and then you can stop taking the Lemon EO once the reverse tolerance is built up and then add the DMT back in the mix for nausea/vomit-free experiences. Other than that, perhaps try out Moclobemide with DMT instead of Harmine.
 
Jees
#17 Posted : 7/3/2017 5:38:36 AM

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syberdelic wrote:
...Building a tolerance to harmalas is not really feasible for me,..

Why not? Start low and build up, if you're sensitive start veeery low. Or lower.
?

-

About La Purga: I was not planning to change your opinion dude because you keep coming back on this, no worries, cherish what you have, there's no doubt a place and function for it under the sun Thumbs up

I suspect you got fed up with woo so much that you got yourself an anti-delusional-sword (or light-saber) and swing it happily at everything that smells like meta. I try to keep a diet from woo also, I get that. But for me there's little to no difference in having a whole conversation in a regular night sleep dream with someone I do not know, or someone I know (being death or alive now), all part of same mystery puddle imho.
I suggest to give that sword back to the lady of the lake, in due time Pleased

-

I stopped myself categorizing things as real, not real, delusional, non-delusional, etc, because it does not bring me ONE inch further. Now I differ and look at things: does it work for me as of here and now?

My encounters with shamans in the past, they worked for me back then, they did!
But today I would not do that again same wise, I've changed, it would not be as fruitful today.
Now I have other 'streams' that work better for me (which might stop work for me later, we'll see). So do I think now shamanism is delusional? No, because in certain situations it can work for someone, as a "Tool", a lever, a handle, a substitute, for better or worse as with most things. I consider it possible addressing shamanism again in future who knows, but that would be with a total different angle on it, shamanism would simply be a different tool for me all together than earlier, there would be other aspects to it.

If you find a medicine/combination that works for you in particular, great! No matter if "Traditional" thinks low of it. I suppose we should not consider traditional recipe to best best for everyone, even if it's a wonderful thing for most. I wish you luck.

-

Peace Love

Wink
 
syberdelic
#18 Posted : 7/4/2017 3:49:47 AM

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ShamensStamen
#19 Posted : 7/4/2017 4:14:03 AM
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You don't have to avoid anything dietarily to consume Harmalas. I've never avoided any foods when consuming Harmalas and DMT, even when i was taking Rue seed/Rue extract daily for 8 months (and i love my cheese too), there's no Tyramine reaction so you're all good there. Building up the Harmala reverse tolerance is in no way bad, in fact it really cleans things up and makes things feel better, and takes less of a dosage for full effects.

And you should be concerned with things "coloring" the experience, because at least with oral DMT and Harmalas, ime, it can be very easily altered in either desirable or undesirable ways, a single plant or compound can completely change the overall feeling or nature of the experience/medicine, ime.

As for Moclobemide, i'll message you.
 
dreamer042
#20 Posted : 7/4/2017 5:02:17 AM

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So I've been eating harmalas every night with melatonin for over three years now and using them regularly for a lot longer than that. I can vouch for the fact you adapt to them and get your "harmala legs" so to speak wherein the nausea, dizziness, and vertigo become less prevalent. Sufficiently high doses still cause these effects, even with tolerance/regular use, I doubt you'll ever completely remove this effect.

Honestly I rarely purge with ayahuasca or pharmahuasca these days, but I do often get the impulse right when the DMT hits my stomach. At first I wanted to attribute that to 5ht3 agonism, but it doesn't have any affinity for that receptor, as shown in that psychedelics and the human receptorome study I linked previously, so there is something else going on there. When I do purge it's when the DMT starts taking effect generally. I haven't yet figured out how to account for the pharmacokinetcs behind this, but I'm also one of those hippie woo believers that the purge comes when it's needed and some level of physical cleansing is desirable when working with these botanicals for healing and personal growth. I have a hard time believing anyone who's had a good purge can deny the catharic release of emotional and psychospiritual material that accompanies the physical release. But hey, what do I know?

My personal feelings aside, at this point we run into a harm reduction issue. It is very unwise to ignore the warnings of serotonin syndrome from Ondansetron being issued by the large health organizations. Particularly with the intention of mixing it with MAO inhibitors. This is a recipe for disaster. Meclizine doesn't have specific warnings and appears to be safer for this combination, but the mechanism of action is very similar and undertaking such mixtures without appropriate medical supervision could still be dangerous. I don't think bypassing a purge is really worth risking serotonin syndrome, but that choice is yours to make. Just be sure you have put in an appropriate amount of research into these combinations and have a contingency plan for emergency situations.

ShamensStamen wrote:
As for Moclobemide, i know a site you can get it from, i'll message it to you.

This kind of sourcing violates the forum attitude. You have earned yourself a week off to review it carefully.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily...

Visual diagram for the administration of dimethyltryptamine

Visual diagram for the administration of ayahuasca
 
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