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Reclassification of DMT as a stimulant + search for evidence Options
 
Cato
#1 Posted : 4/6/2017 5:37:29 PM
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Howdy all. I've been a lurker and hyperspace bum since about 2012. That's that for introductions.

For a primer, I'm committed to the Electric Universe Theory and I'm a huge fan of Rupert Sheldrake and his theories on The Extended Mind, among others, so familiarizing yourself with either of those is certainly going to help make sense about what I intend to discus and document. There's also a small section under the wiki article "Forbidden mechanism" concerning the phenomenon's association with astro- & atomic physics that would likely pertain. Let's jump in..

I think I may be in a position to study the effects of DMT on the mind/body in such a way that would lead to a shift in the standard view of the substance: from that of a hallucinogen, to a stimulant with hallucinogenic side-effects, likely brought on by sensory overload. I believe, with the proper setup, I can collect supporting evidence in the form of video footage.

The Experiment - The subject, SWIM in this case, ingests a DMT dosage. Dose is enough to bring on the "hallucinations," but not enough to put him into hyperspace. Subject sits cross legged on the floor, and a DSLR camera with a blue, purple, or green phosphorescent filter in front of the aperture sits opposite the subject. The camera points at the floor directly in front of the subject, allowing him to comfortably manipulate small objects in front of him with his hands within full view of the camera. The subject manipulates objects, from small crystals and stones to a 'Psi-Wheel' with an aluminium foil wheel, which can be switched with a heavier cardboard wheel. The subject will also make various hand gestures, including creating a circle with both his index fingers and thumbs, and holding the tips of two opposing fingers within several millimeters of each other. The experiment will conclude some time after the effects of the DMT have, perceptibly, worn completely off. There's been consideration a second camera setup, one without filters, that would focus on the subjects skin, capturing any visible deviations in the physiology of the subject (skin color, twitches, etcetera).

The Subject - SWIM. Hich-carb, low-fat, whole foods, plant-based diet for about 14 months. Excellent physical shape, with regular, high-intensity exercise. Currently between 150-170 pounds, around 72" or more in height, and maybe 8-10% body fat. This past Sunday (March 2, 2017) SWIM began what's referred to as the Daniel Fast, from the Book of Daniel (an intriguing chapter about prophecy). 3 weeks of fasting, only water and fruits/vegetables are eaten, no masking scents are to be used, and one would hope to be visited by an entity at the conclusion of the fast. As a vegan who has previously utilized intermittent fasting, SWIM really only sees the Daniel Fast as a minor deviation from their standard diet.

The Expectations - SWIM expects to capture footage of the various energies radiating from our bodies, inanimate objects, and the surrounding environment. SWIM expects the energies will appear in a form similar to those we see of the Sun when viewed through various Angstrom filters. SWIM expects the prevalence of these proposed energies will appear to increase as the 'high' scales up in intensity, but remain, and, with time, drop off, after the 'high' has subsided.[/color]

The Working Hypothesis - Ingestion of a low-dose of freebase DMT vapor will alter the visible perception/acuity of the Subject in such a way that ambient and intrinsic forms of radiant electrical energy become visible, likely at the cost the Subject's perception of spacial depth and peripheral pattern discernment. Ingestion will also, via an unknown physiological mechanic, vastly increase the ambient electrical output of the Subject's body, to such a degree that is measurable externally, confirming the first part of the hypothesis.

The Reason - I heard Monday night (March 3, 2017) was one hell of a trip for SWIM. His preferred method of DMT ingestion is to first get his weed addicted to it, then smoke the weed (lol). Effects are only slightly blunted due to the presence of MJ, but access to pure freebase is available for experimentation purposes.
Anyways, SWIM made a circle with his hands by touching the tips of his index finger and thumb to their respective opposites, resulting with a visible haze that enveloped the empty space between his hands. Minute blue sparks and arcing were also witnessed emanating from his skin along the boundaries of the circular haze. Holding this haze as one would hold a full bowl of cereal in front of them, SWIM proceeded to gently move his hands forward, backwards, left and right, being careful not to "spill" the haze from his hands. SWIM received a tactile response in his hands that corresponded with the direction his hands moved, similar to a liquid or gas (slide a bowl of cereal forward, and the contents rise slightly higher on one side, lower on the opposite, as the liquid has to keep up with the movement the vessel).
When SWIM placed the tips of his fingers close together, stopping just short of touching them together, a sensation of pins and needles was felt in the fingertips, with the sensation sometimes shooting down the length of his finger. Similar sparks and arcs were witnessed as the fingertips were moved about each other in circles (the same way you apply the gel to defibrillator pads, but with a millimeter or so of separation). The skin of the digit would become visibly flushed, turning almost a bruised purple at the very tip, and appeared to create (my interpretation) of lichtenberg figures stretching up the bottom of SWIM's finger.
When SWIM began manipulating the Psi-Wheel, he could actually see wisps and arcing lines flowing, not just around the object, but from the object. As he focused, he could even see them flowing from his fingertips. The best description would have to be the Predator's cloak. In close proximity, the arcs connect and interact in a manner similar to that seen in this video (YouTube, 2:38 in). SWIM now sees this effect regularly, as if he's able to afford more focus to a phenomenon that's always been there.
Over an hour after the trip was over, SWIM was still able to visibly perceive these sparks and arcs. While laying in bed and looking at the ceiling, SWIM suddenly started seeing very turbulent and wild wisps moving about his ceiling, though only in areas where no external light (street light from the window) shone. Also interesting, the bedroom doorway, that leads to a hallway, was halfway open, and seemed to be creating some sort of turbulent vortex with whatever energy he was seeing, as if it were flowing into the room and the door acted as an obstacle. Closest description would be one of those contraptions that makes HUGE soap bubbles, in the moment when the bubble is mostly created, but isn't yet separated from the device that made it, and moves wildly around as it fills with more air. Looking out the door and down the hall at a digital clock that shines very brightly blue, it appeared as if the whole dwelling was filled with white ethereal matter, and the clock shone like a lighthouse through the fog. SWIM wasn't sleeping or dreaming, but was fully aware and responsive, even getting up to walk about.
When SWIM got back into bed, he decided it'd be a good opportunity to continue practicing seeing his body through closed eyes. Holy hell- to his shock and amazement, his torso and limbs were glowing brightly blue. Usually, as in, sans DMT, he's really only able to make out general shapes and movement through a blindfold, which he's taught himself to quickly recognize as body parts and nearby objects. If you think this is hogwash, try it. Sit on the floor, put on a blindfold, and proceed to slowly wave your hands about in front of you. Then rub your right hand along the length of your left arm, then your torso, then your legs. Imagine that you're teaching yourself to use a sense that we all innately have, and you have to associate the location of your body with the perceived stimuli. Back at the trip, SWIM was able to identify his legs moving apart and together again, which were under a blanket, and could see what appeared to be electric arcing running up his arm, which looks very similar to the surface of the Sun in this video, at 21:10.
When SWIM observed his hands without closing his eyes, he saw faint, tiny blue sparks move about his arm/wrist/hand as he moved it through the air. If he focused, he could see the same blue glow in his arm as he saw in his body through closed eyes, though it was confined to where his bones would be. What SWIM felt was, and this is somewhat hard to describe, a buildup of charge in the palm of his hands. The buildup, which felt sort of like a thick, goopy cloud, showed an affinity for his fingertips, and could be held and transferred to his other hand.

All in all, SWIM thinks the DMT somehow charged him up, literally.



So I'm hoping to catch SWIM's perceived physio-electrical phenomenon on camera. I imagine it'll look like Kirlian Photography, but, instead of charging a conductive plate, SWIM is going to charge his whole freakin' body. There are several more aspects that I've left out, as I don't want to drag this post on much longer, though I am happy to discuss them if they come up. I welcome all input, and, time permitting, will update here as the experiment continues. If anyone finds themselves in a similar position as SWIM (in shape, clean eating [like, eats only boiled rice w/ beans and corn], access to aforementioned equipment) and wants to give this a whirl, bring your results and let's discuss.

An idea that most here can readily attempt: make a psi-wheel that has a fairly small wheel, but is balanced on a relatively tall needle/post. Like a small sticky note balanced on a needle that's attached to straw, that's attached to a base that allows it to stand upright. Position the apparatus between you and an overhead light source, such as the shadow of the psi-wheel is sharp, and extends towards you. So, in a way, the shadow will be closer to you than the psi-wheel. Ingest low dose, enough to illicit perceptual perturbation, and spin the wheel. In SWIM's case, which would hopefully be similar for other individuals, he was able to determine that his perception of depth was dampened; while staring at the spinning wheel, notice, without looking, at the rotational speed of the shadow it creates. Your experience should speak for itself.

Thank you for your time!
 

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ducdevil
#2 Posted : 4/6/2017 6:21:26 PM

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interesting.

27 "SWIM"s, all of which are unnecessary.



 
Cato
#3 Posted : 4/6/2017 6:44:01 PM
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ducdevil wrote:
interesting.

27 "SWIM"s, all of which are unnecessary.





I'm stuck in the past. Have people stopped saying SWIM? Proofreading was a nightmare.
 
entheogenic-gnosis
#4 Posted : 4/7/2017 3:24:37 PM
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My background is in chemistry rather than pharmocology or physiology, so pardon me if I'm incorrect here, but:

DMT is primarily a 5HT2a/c receptor agonist, while most stimulants are related to catecholamine systems and neurotransmitters.

While DMT May have stimulant properties, it's most definantly a serotonergic psychedelic.

-eg
 
concombres
#5 Posted : 4/7/2017 5:49:45 PM

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Wut? What about anything you posted suggests that DMT is a stimulant? I see zero evidence & it reads a little like a trip report. Not only that, but you seem to believe your visual hallucinations are going to manifest themselves on camera as if they are real.

Dont get me wrong, i have felt what you are describing, but it is very obviously hallucintion & i think if you take video footage you will just capture yourself acting like a cartoon magician.
 
syberdelic
#6 Posted : 4/7/2017 6:34:08 PM

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I know someone who truly is not myself that doesn't seem to get any elevated heart rate even from very large doses of DMT. She also doesn't get any of the fear or anxiety that the rest of us seem to get from it, so my hypothesis given this data is that the stimulant symptoms from DMT are caused by fear and anxiety and not a direct action of DMT.
 
The Traveler
#7 Posted : 4/7/2017 10:10:43 PM

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syberdelic wrote:
I know someone who truly is not myself that doesn't seem to get any elevated heart rate even from very large doses of DMT. She also doesn't get any of the fear or anxiety that the rest of us seem to get from it, so my hypothesis given this data is that the stimulant symptoms from DMT are caused by fear and anxiety and not a direct action of DMT.

I think this is a much better hypothesis.


Kind regards,

The Traveler
 
null24
#8 Posted : 4/8/2017 1:54:24 AM

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Quote:
.Dont get me wrong, i have felt what you are describing, but it is very obviously hallucintion & i think if you take video footage you will just capture yourself acting like a cartoon magician.


If you dont get the results peer reviewed, theres always Youtube.

Sine experientia nihil sufficienter sciri potest -Roger Bacon
*γνῶθι σεαυτόν*
 
Ulim
#9 Posted : 4/8/2017 2:06:13 AM

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The Traveler wrote:
syberdelic wrote:
I know someone who truly is not myself that doesn't seem to get any elevated heart rate even from very large doses of DMT. She also doesn't get any of the fear or anxiety that the rest of us seem to get from it, so my hypothesis given this data is that the stimulant symptoms from DMT are caused by fear and anxiety and not a direct action of DMT.

I think this is a much better hypothesis.


Kind regards,

The Traveler


Seems the same to me. First a little bit of trembling but as soon as the DMT takes it full effect I calm down a lot, get the tryptamine yawns and such dont feel like moving at all.
DMT sometimes was stimulating (Some people in chat know of this story)
And time felt like it was sped up a lot and I was moving a lot faster.
But mostly DMT is strictly downregulating and kind of "freezes" you in place not wanting to move.
 
downwardsfromzero
#10 Posted : 4/10/2017 9:09:58 PM

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On one occasion I've fallen asleep directly after a good toke of DMT so I'd say it doesn't qualify as an out-and-out stimulant by any means.

Cato wrote:
I'm stuck in the past. Have people stopped saying SWIM? Proofreading was a nightmare.

Our point exactly Wink




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Jees
#11 Posted : 4/10/2017 9:58:33 PM

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Sitting there, GVG in one hand, torch in the other hand, it sure is a stimulant Twisted Evil
You ain't smoked yet Laughing
 
ShamensStamen
#12 Posted : 4/10/2017 11:14:30 PM
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I've had stimulant effects when taking DMT orally with Harmalas, as well as from Shrooms, and LSD. I think Caffeine can amp up the stimulant properties though, since i'd usually drink caffeinated soda with my DMT and Harmalas, and the Caffeine is potentiated by the Harmalas due to CYP1A2 inhibition, and possibly the MAO-A inhibition, but it adds a really nice stimulant effect to DMT ime.
 
entheogenic-gnosis
#13 Posted : 4/11/2017 1:51:50 PM
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ShamensStamen wrote:
I've had stimulant effects when taking DMT orally with Harmalas, as well as from Shrooms, and LSD. I think Caffeine can amp up the stimulant properties though, since i'd usually drink caffeinated soda with my DMT and Harmalas, and the Caffeine is potentiated by the Harmalas due to CYP1A2 inhibition, and possibly the MAO-A inhibition, but it adds a really nice stimulant effect to DMT ime.


LSD actually affects dopamine receptor sites and has effect on catecholamine neurotransmitters and systems:

Quote:
LSD affects a large number of the G protein-coupled receptors, including most serotonin receptor subtypes, all dopamine receptor subtypes, and all adrenoreceptor subtypes, as well as other sites.[citation needed] Most serotonergic psychedelics are not significantly dopaminergic, and LSD is therefore atypical in this regard. -wikipedia


...though LSD is still considered a serotonergic psychedelic.

-eg
 
ShamensStamen
#14 Posted : 4/11/2017 9:06:04 PM
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Yeah and DMT seems to do something with the Dopamine 1 receptor, as well as the Adrenergic receptors. I've also read that the Harmalas seem to inhibit COMT which could increase Dopamine and Adrenaline levels, aside from the MAO-A inhibition.

I definitely seem to get a stimulant-like effect from Psychedelics though, after the come up stabilizes i feel great and feel like cleaning or washing dishes, or getting a nice hot shower, or trying on new clothes. It's way better than anything Ritalin could ever do for me lol.
 
AwesomeUsername
#15 Posted : 4/11/2017 9:45:15 PM

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ShamensStamen wrote:
Yeah and DMT seems to do something with the Dopamine 1 receptor, as well as the Adrenergic receptors. I've also read that the Harmalas seem to inhibit COMT which could increase Dopamine and Adrenaline levels, aside from the MAO-A inhibition.

I definitely seem to get a stimulant-like effect from Psychedelics though, after the come up stabilizes i feel great and feel like cleaning or washing dishes, or getting a nice hot shower, or trying on new clothes. It's way better than anything Ritalin could ever do for me lol.


That is still not enough to classify DMT, harmalas and any of the classic psychedelics as stimulants or "psychedelic stimulants". It may increase dopamine and adrenaline levels, but you know what also increases that? Life, and life experiences.

My personal interpretation of those moments that you feel great are that your mind is more significantly more active than sober, and when the mind is running the body gets going too.

On psychedelics, LSD included most people can also just sit, relax and think about life not worried that you have something important to do and having the need to find an activity to prevent boredom. Where as if you were jacked up on meth, you wouldn't be able to sit still longer than a few seconds, and that among other similar effects is considered an effect that stimulants tend to produce. Not "hey I feel good, I might actually do something."

Also you did mention that you use caffeine during your psychedelic trips, which is in fact a stimulant that can have noticeable effects on it's own so your desire to do the chores might come from that.

This specific mood and cognitive enhancement that happens during psychedelic trips is the reason why people microdose. Which again is no proof that psychedelics have stimulating properties since low doses of opiates, cannabis, and many other drugs are capable of doing that too. Psychedelics are superior in that IMO for the sole fact that they are safest drugs known to pharmacology.
 
universecannon
#16 Posted : 4/11/2017 11:43:13 PM



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So you've been drinking caffeinated soda before dosing...and are now considering DMT could be reclassified as a stimulant? Lolwut

High doses of aya or pharma can be extremely sedating. Smoking is just quick and exciting. But even oral can be "stimulating" to. The experience can be a lot of things, and it's especially stimulating when anxiety fear and wonder are involved because these are intense emotions. But that doesn't mEan we should reclassify it as a stimulant.



<Ringworm>hehehe, it's all fun and games till someone loses an "I"
 
ShamensStamen
#17 Posted : 4/12/2017 12:38:46 AM
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I'm not the one suggesting it be classified as a stimulant, i know it's a Psychedelic compound. I'm saying that i've definitely experienced stimulant-like effects from DMT, Shrooms, LSD, but usually after the come up since i have to sit/lay down for the come up.

But i've noticed with DMT it seems to be more Adrenaline-related, not necessarily anything to do with fear/panic (which happens during the come up), but after the come up once things are stabilized i have tons of energy and motivation and drive, i feel like i can really get things done, but if Caffeine is added to the oral DMT and Harmalas, it definitely has a "speedy" edge to it and i feel quite pumped up. I think the stimulating music i listen to also has something to do with it.

But in terms of dosages, i don't like heavy Rue/Harmala dosages, so i use high enough dosages to get the job done and add some nice Harmala aspects to the experience, but not so high that my motor function is impaired and i'm weighed down and heavily sedated/in a trance state, which btw all that stuff clears up with the Harmala reverse tolerance so one can use stronger/heavier Harmala dosages without all the side-effects, though there can definitely still be some sedation, which after the first couple or so hours seems to clear up.
 
entheogenic-gnosis
#18 Posted : 4/12/2017 2:00:24 PM
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...I was pointing out that these compounds are serotonergic psychedelics.



-eg
 
dragonrider
#19 Posted : 4/12/2017 8:22:22 PM

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entheogenic-gnosis wrote:
...I was pointing out that these compounds are serotonergic psychedelics.



-eg

They reduce serotonergic activity by triggering downregulation of 5HT-2A receptors. Now serotonin does seem to have a somewhat inhibitory effect, and it plays a major role in the regulation of all kinds of other neurotransmitters. Substances like MDAI, wich elevate levels of serotonin without affecting other transmittersystems, are often described as being mildly sedating.

I wouldn't classify DMT directly as a stimulant in the traditional sense, but i do think that releasing certain inhibitions of the brain ís part of it's magic.
 
entheogenic-gnosis
#20 Posted : 4/13/2017 2:14:39 PM
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dragonrider wrote:
entheogenic-gnosis wrote:
...I was pointing out that these compounds are serotonergic psychedelics.



-eg

They reduce serotonergic activity by triggering downregulation of 5HT-2A receptors. Now serotonin does seem to have a somewhat inhibitory effect, and it plays a major role in the regulation of all kinds of other neurotransmitters. Substances like MDAI, wich elevate levels of serotonin without affecting other transmittersystems, are often described as being mildly sedating.

I wouldn't classify DMT directly as a stimulant in the traditional sense, but i do think that releasing certain inhibitions of the brain ís part of it's magic.


psychedelics interact with serotonin receptors in a very interesting manner. The thalamus and the cortex regions of the brain are connected by 5HT2a/c receptors, so your lower informational brain and higher emotional/processing brain are connected by these receptors.

-Thalamic gating occurs on psychedelics. You are bombarded by billions of signals every second, all of which, except for smell, enter through the thalamus, where they are then filtered, before being sent to the cortex regions for higher processing, so due to this mechanism of the thalamus, you are only receiving a small, filtered slice of the reality around you. When you take a psychedelic, this filtering mechanism of the thalamus is "switched off", allowing you to receive a wider range of signals than one would be allowed to otherwise.

-the dorsal raphe nuclei, when awake are constantly "firing" serotonin, as you tire they slow, and in sleep they stop firing all together. When you take a psychedelic your dorsal raphe nuclei stop firing even though the brain is otherwise awake.

Psychedelics in many ways release the brain from serotonins rather repressive control mechanisms.

Below some other properties of these compounds relating to the human brain are outlined:

Dr. Nutt and others in their fMRI work with psilocin outlines how psilocin deceased blood flow to key "hub" regions of the brain "enabling a state of unconstrained cognition".

Quote:
only decreases in cerebral blood flow and BOLD signal were seen, and these were maximal in hub regions, such as the thalamus and anterior and posterior cingulate cortex (ACC and PCC). Decreased activity in the ACC/medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC) was a consistent finding and the magnitude of this decrease predicted the intensity of the subjective effects. Based on these results, a seed-based pharmaco-physiological interaction/functional connectivity analysis was performed using a medial prefrontal seed. Psilocybin caused a significant decrease in the positive coupling between the mPFC and PCC. These results strongly imply that the subjective effects of psychedelic drugs are caused by decreased activity and connectivity in the brain's key connector hubs, enabling a state of unconstrained cognition.
http://m.pnas.org/content/109/6/2138.abstract


Some compounds are tricky to classify, like MDMA, which is an amphetamine, in fact it is methamphetamine with a methylenedioxy bridge between carbon atoms 3 and 4 of the benzene ring. Though unlike methamphetamine, which primarily affects dopamine and other catecholamine neurotransmitters and systems, with a small affect on serotonin and serotonin systems, MDMA primarily affects serotonin and serotonin systems with a small affect on dopamine and other catecholamine neurotransmitters and catecholamine systems. Structurally MDMA resembles a stimulant or a psychedelic amphetamine, while phenomenologically it is unique from both those categories, and while it does have stimulant and psychedelic properties, I think it's unique distinction as an "entactogen" or an "empathogen" is fitting.

The psychedelic amphetamines, such as the 2,5-dimethoxy-4-substituted-amphetamines, TMA and it's homologues, and others, still primarily affect 5HT2a/c receptors. People hear the word "amphetamine" and automatically assume "stimulant" (which is why I prefer to call the psychedelic amphetamines "alpha-methyl-phenethylamines" ), which is not necessarily the case as the substitutions to the molecules shift their pharmacology to serotonin receptor agonists, And while some of the psychedelic amphetamines most definantly have stimulant properties, to classify them as stimulants would not be appropriate.

structure activity relationships are fascinating, and may help one understand these concepts better

Some psychedelics have stimulant properties, particularly the phenethylamine and amphetamine psychedelics, as does LSD, however, their primary pharmocological action is as serotonin 2a and 2c receptor agonists, making them serotonergenic psychedelic compounds.

DMT and psilocybin/psilocin are primarily 5HT2a/c receptor agonists, thus they are serotonergenic psychedelics, despite affecting other neurotransmitters and neurotransmitter systems and despite the possibility that they may Phenomenologically produce some type of stimulation.

-eg
 
 
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