Actually, if we look at plant analogues - eg. syrian rue (cultivated for its seeds in the ME), mimosa hostilis (cultivated for its wood in South America), the MAOI+DMT combination itself (should we term it "neohuasca"?) is quite sustainable.


Cyans are in fact a native species across most of the northern temperate range throughout Eurasia and America.


That's a very valid perspective. Mystical work needs an open mindset ready to accept and interpret as opposed to dissect and criticize, and I don't think that aggressive shutdowns of subjective visions presented with humility are a mature or useful way of communication.


That, however, is a dangerous viewpoint, bordering on hybris. Never let anyone question your validity as a being, but never be too sure of the correctness of your beliefs.


I challenge your hypothesis.
It's because if we let subjective spiritual viewpoints run rampant, things quickly devolve into spiritual penis size contests, conspiracy theories and just plain unchecked crazy.



But yes, having several scientists with a good grasp of philosophy helps. Note though that there are quite a lot of quite spiritual discussions here. Debating something is not the same thing as shooting it down.


I find that a very good approach.


Well that goes into worldview and beliefs territory. What is the source of visions? Some kind of plant / shroom spirit? God? Angels? Random passing spirits? The literal Devil? Your own subconscious?

If I pass a random stranger on the street, and he tells me something, I'll of course consider it, but take it as coming from an untrusted source. Personally, I find that to be the safest and most useful approach to take with psychedelic visions.

Who knows if the source of these visions is actually wiser than myself? And if it is, who knows if it has my best interests at heart? As with any other untrusted source, the message itself should "validate itself". A wise and benevolent being can be recognized by their wise and benevolent messages.


From the viewpoint of primal man, that does indeed ring true.


However as far as I understand it's nearly sterile, with a rather limited gene pool, and a very limited geographical range.

Salvia is a pretty interesting lady. I've smoked it only two or three times at various strengths however ive never taken it orally. From my understanding keeping leaves in your mouth for an hour or so produces a more tolerable salvia experience. Takes longer to kick in, not a rocket launch into another realm. If your have the TV channel Viceland Hamilton pharmacopia has a good segment on it, I'm sure you can also find i on YouTube or somewhere online as well.

Salvia is very interesting and different indeed. But it is not sterile more and more people are achieving seeds these days, although I still don't think there has been a technique to produce seeds every time, but it is doable. The more seeds we make the more we are strenghening the gene pool, and despite its limited geo range, it's really pretty easy to grow and very tolerant of varying conditions. I live almost near Canadian border and I can grow it without problems. This means it could easily become established in places outside its known range

Yes but here we were discussing the ayahuasca (Banisteriopsis caapi) vine in particular. For sure, Syrian rue is a much more sustainable source of MAOI's...its seeds are much more potent MAOI sources than caapi vine, they are produced in abundance, and the plant does not need to be destroyed in order to harvest them. Both Syrian rue and Mimosa hostilis are known to be invasive species in some parts of the world...wild stocks certainly running out anytime soon!



Are you sure about this? There are certainly members of the wood-loving Psilocybe species complex native to Europe, but as far as I'm aware, P. cyanescens is an original native of the American Pacific northwest which has expanded its range markedly in recent years.

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I am certainly not putting you in a box of delusion. I just think we should engage a little more rational or critical thought when interpreting inner voices or insights. Remember that schizophrenics listen to their inner voices unquestioningly, so I think a little caution is advised, that's all, I don't believe all inner voice communications will comprise insightful, valid wisdom or should be taken as undisputable gospel truth.



This I think is a pretty crude way of measuring scarcity. Firstly, mushrooms tend to be a great deal more potent than ayahuasca vine, and are consumed in much smaller doses, so I don't see weight as a valid method for comparing scarcity. I also think range and accessibility should not be ignored...ayahuasca is primarily found in Amazonia, while psilocybin mushrooms can be found in pretty much all tropical, subtropical and temperate zones of the world, making them a lot more accessible to more people. As mentioned number of the more well known species have also benefited greatly and expanded their ranges and abundance markedly through human modification of ecosystems.

If you are going to take the view these plants have genuine personalities or characters, does it not follow they can have their own views on things or agendas and may themselves not be infallible or infinitely wise? Maybe they can get stuff wrong too.



Well as mentioned, simple by vetting any insights or messages received with some rational and critical thought...record any lessons by all means, and see if they hold up the cold sober light of day...would be a good start I think.



Fair enough, but just because something feels true, doesn't necessarily make it so, no matter the source. Look at the vast majority of the human population across the world, who are all convinced of the truth of their particular take on their religious faith...clearly they can't all be right as many of these beliefs are not compatible. Just be careful taking things on blind unquestioning faith, as this is what the religiously brainwashed do.

Anyway, I do appreciate this thread, and it definitely has inspired me to want to work with Salvia in the future, Mazatec style.

There is psilocybe cyanescens the wood lover from Pacific Northwest, and panaeolus cyanescens the tropical dung lover. As far as I know Liberty caps or p. Semilanciata Are the Ones most common in Europe

That was partially my point, that it would be hard to objectively prove scarcity either way. But I said weigh them and divide by number of doses available so that does indeed take into account the potency of both aya and mushrooms. But that would be absurdly impractical anyways that's basically what I am trying to say is that you in fact cannot say which is more or less scarce. The waters become even more muddied if you consider aya analogues etc....

and about using some degree of critical thought and common sense and applying that razor to the insights and or visions is just plain obvious, of course I am in favor of doing that, and that's why I said you were putting me in a box, because I do use critical questioning thought and common sense but because of one comment I made saying I would listen to the visions, you have it seems placed me in a category of not using critical thought at all, when that is really not what I was trying to say... You are arguing to use critical thought and that is a valid point, no one is disagreeing with you here... Yes use a fair degree of both critical thought and faith would be the approach I favor Just so we're clear. In general I believe a lot of visions or insights have real substance behind them but translating them to concrete messages is not an exact science, it's more of an art.

It's all good. Salvia oral style is really awesome, I have plants and have been working my way up 1 leaf at a time, the goal being at some point soon to engage in a high dose ceremony. But it is equally as useful for ceremonies and meditations at smaller doses as well. In fact for me it's definetly the plant that fits in best with nice little meditations at night or little prayer or majick ceremonies. Allowing a ritual/trance state of mind to gently take over with not too much intoxication but a very clear type feeling. Or if your ready for something heavier you can always use more.

It's also really cool to mix roas and get a good baseline going with a few quid leaves and meditate then when you want more you can take a few puffs of the smoke and inch deeper and deeper, already being on the oral salvia makes the effect of smoking much more like the oral just kind of boosting it and potentiating it a lot.

Going for a high dose orally is quite a commitment and you should work way up with adequate caution some people never come back from the most extreme of salvia trips. What I would consider high dose is one where you fully leave the body and enter a new fully immersive space. This is easy with smoke but more caution is needed with oral not to overshoot too much. For me it is the least recreational and most spiritual plant I have had experience with.

It's hard to tell much about the "real" origins of such aggressive and unassuming saprophytic mushrooms. There are so many small brown saprophyte species in the world, and they are so uninteresting if not for their psychoactive nature, that such mushrooms were often misclassified as other species... also mycologists tend to underreport or actively hush up the presence of psychoactive species even if they are aware (though more than often they aren't, see above), in a misguided attempt to "keep the junkies out of the woods".

I own an Eastern European mushroom collecting manual published in the late 80s, and it lists cyanescens as a poisonous species.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ps...Habitat_and_distribution

I also remember reading that the use of psilocybin mushrooms growing in conifer woods (which probably means azurescens or cyanescens) might have been an important ritual of Siberian shamanic cultures.

There are also the wood loving species P. bohemica and P. serbica which may be found in eastern Europe, to name but two. And regarding whether P. cyanescens is native to Europe or not: firstly, how far can a microscopic spore blow on the wind? and secondly, let me assure you all that, whichever way, P. cyanescens is far from rare in the UK! I doubt that all of the occurrences were deliberately planted, although there is certain to be a fair few cheeky landscapers and arboriculturalists.


Any idea where you read this? It would not be altogether surprising if there were also a P. sibirica, especially given the vast size of the region.


Given the mild winter we're having, it wouldn't seem that difficult to expand the outdoor range of S. divinorum to western Europe, either!