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MAOI half life Options
 
ShamensStamen
#21 Posted : 1/14/2018 10:41:47 PM
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Not sure, i haven't worked enough with Harmine yet, and haven't tried Harmine with DMT, to see what the dosage would be for full MAO-A inhibition. I've always either used 3 to 4.5 grams of Rue seed powder, or 180 to 200mgs of freebased Rue or freebased Harmala extract, any less wasn't strong enough ime. Just go for 150 to 180mgs of Harmaline and see how that does, 100mgs is probably on the light end in terms of MAO-A inhibition. I don't even get any nausea or vomiting from the extracts unless i go over 200mgs, and even then i don't really get any nausea but i do sometimes still vomit, 180mgs seemed like a sweet spot dose for me.

Also take into consideration that some people have higher or lower amounts of MAO-A that needs to be inhibited, and they are metabolized by CYP2D6 so some people may need more or less. Aside from that, there's the timing thing where you take the Harmalas first and wait a certain amount of time to take the DMT, so might need to play around with the timing a little bit, 30 minutes to an hour always seemed to do fine for me when using Rue seed powder or freebased extracts in capsules, some say it's fine to take them at the same time but it's a bit more inconsistent that way from what i've seen online whereas i've rarely ever had an issue taking the DMT 30 minutes to an hour after the Rue/Harmalas. But as long as you get the Harmala dosage right and get the timing between the Harmalas and DMT right, it'll definitely work.
 

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Jees
#22 Posted : 1/15/2018 11:12:30 AM

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Harmaline gives such a huge body load, my max is like 100mg. I would not suggest anyone to try 150 or 180 of the bat. They can try but build up from lower, my advise based on my humble experiences. Harmine being totally different due much lesser a body load.

Shamanstamen, you said not to have tried {harmine + dmt} while making statements about harmine (which I don't agree on), I'm feeling puzzled.

Jagube wrote:
...So why is it said that harmaline is twice as potent an MAOI as harmine?...
Where is that said, any references? I'm interested. I know about the rumor but who really claims it and on what base?
Tests of MAOI power of harmine and harmaline has shown near identical, just a slight edge for harmaline, nothing in relationship with the difference in body feel. I think the larger duration and heavier body feel of harmaline has given it a false super-maoi reputation. "...harmaline and harmine can also exhibit distinct pharmacological and toxicological profiles..." T.Herraiz et al 2010.

Jees attached the following image(s):
maois.JPG (37kb) downloaded 192 time(s).
 
Jagube
#23 Posted : 1/15/2018 4:58:20 PM

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Thanks Jees. It was on the Nexus that I read harmaline is twice as potent as harmine.

Judging by the lack of effects from the 100mg I tried, my harmaline must be very impure (contaminated mostly with sodium carb), so I feel quite confident about taking 200mg, and maybe half of my ACRB tea dose so as not to waste it in case it still doesn't work.

As for how long to wait between the harmalas and DMT-containing tea, opinions seem to be divided here. I've seen it said even 20 minutes is too much and that they're best taken at the same time, which others suggest 30 minutes. Go figure.
 
dreamer042
#24 Posted : 1/15/2018 5:52:04 PM

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Quote:
After the intravenous injection of 10 mg/kg of either harmine or harmaline, the tremor lasted for 25 and 96 min, respectively. Correspondingly, harmaline disappeared from the brain more slowly (biological half-life t0.5= 53.4 min) than harmine (to.5 = 10.1 min).

Quote:
As previously found in mice (Zetler et al., 1972), maximal brain concentrations of harmaline were considerably lower and occurred much later than those of harmine.

This very thorough research should answer any and every question you could possibly raise about metabolism of these compounds. Pay particularly close attention to Figure 1 and Figure 2. Thumbs up

Zetler, G., G. Back, and H. Iven. "Pharmacokinetics in the rat of the hallucinogenic alkaloids harmine and harmaline." Naunyn-Schmiedeberg's archives of pharmacology 285.3 (1974): 273-292.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily...

Visual diagram for the administration of dimethyltryptamine

Visual diagram for the administration of ayahuasca
 
ShamensStamen
#25 Posted : 1/15/2018 8:44:28 PM
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Jees wrote:
Harmaline gives such a huge body load, my max is like 100mg. I would not suggest anyone to try 150 or 180 of the bat. They can try but build up from lower, my advise based on my humble experiences. Harmine being totally different due much lesser a body load.

Shamanstamen, you said not to have tried {harmine + dmt} while making statements about harmine (which I don't agree on), I'm feeling puzzled.


What exactly are you puzzled about? I haven't yet tried pure Harmine or pure Harmaline with DMT, i've tried pure Harmine by itself and with Rue seed as well as extract, but i've mainly worked with the Rue itself or the freebased Rue extract or purified Harmala (Harmaline/Harmine) extract. The pure Harmine i have is definitely of a different feeling compared to the Harmaline/Rue so it's definitely Harmine. In my experience, i take the Harmine, i can feel a little bit around 20 to 30 minutes or so, it starts ramping up about an hour into it, and around 2 and a half to 3 hours in i notice a leveling off of effects, like the Harmine has been fully kicked in, whereas with Rue/Harmalas i get that leveling off effect right at 2 full hours which has been very consistent (and usually if i don't vomit before 2 hours then after 2 hours is up i know i'm not gonna vomit). Harmine definitely feels different than the Harmaline, feels cleaner on the body, clearer on the mind, but still can give me that high dosage Harmala body load feeling where my face/mouth/tongue and some of my body feels a bit numb and i feel more relaxed, 250mgs made me just wanna lay in bed, but 200mgs seems fine.

With Harmaline though, i need about 180mgs to 200mgs of freebased Rue or freebased Harmala extract, or usually 3.5 to 4 grams of Rue seed. Keep in mind some people may need lower amounts because of CYP2D6 status, but the body load for me doesn't start getting heavy unless i take 200mgs of Rue/Harmala extract regularly for a few days to a week and it starts getting stronger each time due to the reverse tolerance. Also my extracts are as pure as can be, i do multiple cleansings on it so it's definitely not weak, and i'm very experienced with this stuff so i know a good bit about how the Harmalas feel and work, at least for me. When it comes to Harmine, idk for sure if it lasts as long as Harmaline in terms of total duration, but last few times i've taken it, it's lasted about 8 good hours just like the Rue/Harmaline, and still potentiated my sleeping medication by CYP1A2 inhibition (which lasts up to about 10 hours after ingestion of the Harmalas) like the Rue/Harmaline does, it just seems to last a bit longer during the come up stage for me compared to Harmaline, idk why, but it does. I remember reading awhile back that Harmaline and Harmine have different peak times or something, so that's probably what i'm referring to.

I also use capsules for my Rue/Harmalas which kinda stretches things out a bit compared to teas.
 
Jees
#26 Posted : 1/15/2018 10:18:57 PM

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Thanks for explaining.
ShamensStamen wrote:
Jees wrote:
...Shamanstamen, you said not to have tried {harmine + dmt} while making statements about harmine (which I don't agree on), I'm feeling puzzled.

What exactly are you puzzled about? ...
IMHO the way to monitor maoi power is by confronting it with a known dose of tryptamines, that feel is so unmistakable an thus a good indicator, is my thinking.
Your approach is different and based on the harmala feel on its own.
That might explain why we differ in the timings.
Is the maoi activity linearly reflected in the harmala feel?
I'm not so sure after our reversed diagnose thingy.
Pleased
 
ShamensStamen
#27 Posted : 1/15/2018 10:24:41 PM
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Yeah i hear ya there, i've been on a break pretty much from Psychedelics for a bit, so i haven't really gotten around to taking Harmine with DMT yet, though i'm really looking forward to getting back i'm just waiting on when the time feels right.

I've gotten pretty good at determining the effects of Harmalas on their own without DMT in the mix, but you're right, it's a lot easier to tell how things are when DMT is in the mix. But there's some effects of the Harmalas that are definitely noticeable on their own, just with DMT in the mix it's a lot more noticeable.

As for the duration of gut MAO-A inhibition using Rue seed/extract or Harmala extract, for me i've been able to wait about an hour to an hour and a half to dose DMT and it still work, but any longer than that and the DMT either isn't as effective or isn't active at all. So i'd imagine with Harmine it'd be similar, but MAO-A inhibition aside, there's some bodily effects of the Harmine that levels out after about 2 and a half to three hours, whereas with Rue/Harmaline it seems to level out at about 2 hours, but i don't think that has to do with the MAO-A inhibition, it's just when the Harmalas stabilize.
 
Jagube
#28 Posted : 1/16/2018 10:36:38 AM

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ShamensStamen wrote:
With Harmaline though, i need about 180mgs to 200mgs of freebased Rue or freebased Harmala extract

But Rue is not harmaline.

Freebased Rue contains a bunch of alkaloids. I suspect harmalol may also play a role, because with Rue I experience effects I believe come from a harmala alkaloid, but can't ascribe to either harmine or harmaline.
A Manske extract contains harmine and harmaline, and IME - with the seeds I use anyway - there is more harmine than harmaline.

I tried my 'harmaline' last night and was largely underwhelmed. Took 190mg 'harmaline' + ACRB and felt hardly anything, and no tryptamine effects. 2 hours later I took another 190g 'harmaline' + ACRB and felt a bit more harmala effects, but very little, and maybe 5-10% of the ACRB effects I'd expect at that dose. Now I feel a bit of a hangover (as opposed to an afterglow).

So my conclusion is either my 'harmaline' is bunk and contains mostly sodium carb, or I'm not that sensitive to it. 380mg harmaline should have been way too much, and it turned out way too little.

Luckily the 'harmine' fraction (pH 8.5) of my extraction worked out great. I'm going to attempt a zinc reduction on the pH 11 and pH 9.5 ('harmaline'Pleased fractions.
 
ShamensStamen
#29 Posted : 1/16/2018 8:26:08 PM
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Yeah but i've used purified Harmala (Harmaline/Harmine) extract quite a lot so i definitely know what Harmaline feels like. I've also taken Harmalas very regularly since 2012, even strong dosages daily for 8 months, i love my Harmalas Smile

But yeah next time you do an extraction, filter the extract off with a coffee filter and run water in the coffee filter to wash away any residual washing soda.
 
Asher7
#30 Posted : 11/27/2018 5:08:04 PM

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I’m not sure of my taps ph but I’m assuming it’s more acidic than the fb environment right? Does running tap water through the filter redissolve any solids?
 
ShamensStamen
#31 Posted : 11/27/2018 6:26:06 PM
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Not that i've noticed, that's what i do and it's worked fine.
 
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