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MAOI half life Options
 
jiva
#1 Posted : 7/16/2016 11:07:46 PM

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Hello everyone,

this came up in the chat recently what is the half life of harmalas when consumed.
Dreamer mentioned that for smoked Harmalas in changa this is about 30-60 minutes

what would this be for oral or sublingual consumption?

also as i try to be very careful with MAOIs what would be the time you would consider appropriate for a diet?
and even more important how long does it take until substances like MDMA would not be a problem anymore?

i tried to read up on the subject but it does seem it is rather hard to find anything on this not even on erowid a time was mentioned - or maybe i was just looking at the wrong places.


in all the books about dmt and ayahuasca i've read so far this does seem to be a subject that is mentioned but i never read any actuall advices or safty guidlines about this.
is there any link, book, pdf... where i can read up on the subject?




edit:
i found a lot of posts in various forums and sites that often contradict each other. from no diet at all is needed to just a few products
and also one statement that said that Harmine is out of your system with ~12 hours (no method of consumption mentioned)
 

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dreamer042
#2 Posted : 7/17/2016 1:04:21 AM

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The following quoted information is listed in Ayahuasca: alkaloids, plants & analogs by Trout
Quote:
The rate of elimination from the brain is slower for harmaline (half-life 53.4 minutes) than for harmine (half-life 10.1 minutes)

This part should more or less apply to smoked alkaloids.

Sublingual consumption would err closer to this end of the spectrum, but would likely be longer due to the slower onset and metabolism. The prudent choice would be to apply the oral dosing numbers when taking sublingal harmalas.

Quote:
The rate of excretion for harmine and its metabolites is faster in man (half life 3 hours) than in rats (half-life 6-7 hours) indicating distinct differences between species.

This bit should apply to oral consumption.

So with smoked Syrian Rue extract, which contains harmaline, after an hour the amount still present in the brain will be ~50% of the active dose. At 2 hours it will be ~25%. 3 Hours it will be ~12.5%. 4 Hours ~6.25%. 5 hours ~3.125%. 6 hours 1.5625%. And so on and so forth.

Typically after around 4-6 half lives we reach what is termed "steady state" in which all of the drugs incoming dosage is being readily metabolized (this applies more to drugs that taken on an ongoing basis than to single administrations, but is still relevant here). So in general you should plan for a minimum of 5-6 half life cycles before taking any contraindicated substances.

Applying this to oral harmine, we are looking at 3 hours x 6 half lives, or about 18 hours before one would be moar or less in the clear to pop a molly or eat a prozac. Note that this only applies to harmine alone. I wasn't able to find a reliable half life for harmaline with a quick google search, but I did stumble across an unsourced blurb on reddit suggesting it takes about 3 times longer than harmine, so if that is correct we are looking at something on the order of 9 hours x 6 half lives = 54 hours before you can roll safely.

THH appears to have a half life on the order of 11 hours, so we would be looking at around 66 hours on that one.

Moral of the story, when it comes to using contraindicated substances after harmalas, it's probably best to give a buffer on the order of at least a day (24 hours) for changa and on the order of 3 days (72 hours) for oral harmalas.

Working the other way, it looks like MDMA has a half life of around 7 hours. So 7 hours x 6 half lives we are looking at a minimum 42 hours before one should be consuming an MAOI. Note that MDMA is metabolized into MDA which has a a mean half life of around the same time (7-8 hours) but can remain in the body longer, in some instances pushing up to 13.5 hours x 6 half lives = 81 hours. Again, a 3 day rule in this direction would probably also be wise.

Regarding diet, most of the contraindicated foods for MAO inhibitors apply to pharmacuetical compounds that irreversibly inhibit both MAO-A and MAO-B. Harmalas being a reversible inhibitor of MAO-A, the dietary restrictions don't really apply to these compounds, but the drug contraindications do!

Hope that helps. Thumbs up
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jiva
#3 Posted : 7/17/2016 11:50:03 AM

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Thank you very much this is exactly what i was looking for
 
mateo
#4 Posted : 7/27/2016 5:27:35 PM

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Can anyone verify or comment whether harmaline seems to last 3 times longer than harmine?
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blue.magic
#5 Posted : 1/13/2018 6:29:56 AM

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mateo wrote:
Can anyone verify or comment whether harmaline seems to last 3 times longer than harmine?


I second that.

I would also like to know whether oral harmine (HCl) lasts long enough to be useful for combining with mushrooms (psilohuasca) or is too short-acting.

The Erowid source says harmine has a half-life of 10.1 minutes.

Since it needs 30 minutes just to get to the brain, it seems there will be only 12.5% of it when it reaches peak concentration. Now if one takes mushrooms 30 minutes after harmine, by the time mushrooms kick in, there will be only about 1% harmine present not counting harmine lost by digestion and incomplete absorbtion.

But I don't know how much is effectively needed for full MAO inhibiton in the brain, maybe 10 milligrams?
 
Jagube
#6 Posted : 1/13/2018 10:25:36 AM

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I took harmine (extracted from rue) with ACRB tea a few days ago. It lasted much longer than my usual rue + ACRB. A good 8 hours of full-on effects, including strong tracers, followed by another 24 hour afterglow.

Not sure what the dose was, as I used a 0.1g scale. It was showing 0.3g, so must have been between 200-400mg.

I loved it, it was very clean, mighty strong and I didn't feel cold like I do from rue.
There was something missing though, in comparison to B. caapi.

The effects of the ACRB were also stronger than with rue, longer lasting and came on more reliably.

I feel it would work well with mushrooms, blue.magic. The short half-life values stated don't seem to match experience, maybe something changes with oral administration, e.g. slow release from the gut into the blood and brain.
 
blue.magic
#7 Posted : 1/13/2018 1:32:18 PM

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Jagube wrote:
I took harmine (extracted from rue) with ACRB tea a few days ago. It lasted much longer than my usual rue + ACRB. A good 8 hours of full-on effects, including strong tracers, followed by another 24 hour afterglow.

Not sure what the dose was, as I used a 0.1g scale. It was showing 0.3g, so must have been between 200-400mg.

I loved it, it was very clean, mighty strong and I didn't feel cold like I do from rue.
There was something missing though, in comparison to B. caapi.

The effects of the ACRB were also stronger than with rue, longer lasting and came on more reliably.

I feel it would work well with mushrooms, blue.magic. The short half-life values stated don't seem to match experience, maybe something changes with oral administration, e.g. slow release from the gut into the blood and brain.


Thanks. Yes the "standard" dose of harmine is said to be around 200 mg (though not specified if freebase or HCl). I assume freebase, so maybe I will try 220 mg harmine.HCl with mushrooms and then increase the dosage if needed.

It's good to hear the effects last for so long.
 
Jees
#8 Posted : 1/13/2018 1:47:34 PM

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Jagube wrote:
I took harmine (extracted from rue) with ACRB tea a few days ago. It lasted much longer than my usual rue + ACRB. A good 8 hours of full-on effects, including strong tracers, followed by another 24 hour afterglow.

Not sure what the dose was, as I used a 0.1g scale. It was showing 0.3g, so must have been between 200-400mg.

I loved it, it was very clean, mighty strong and I didn't feel cold like I do from rue.
There was something missing though, in comparison to B. caapi.

The effects of the ACRB were also stronger than with rue, longer lasting and came on more reliably.

I feel it would work well with mushrooms, blue.magic. The short half-life values stated don't seem to match experience, maybe something changes with oral administration, e.g. slow release from the gut into the blood and brain.

Oral ROA, my experiences with harmine and harmaline follow exactly the half life data available, go figure Wut?
If that would not be the case, I would rather question my own workflow.
Dosing 200 or 400 mg harmalas has such a difference that you can't pin things down anymore. I suggest get a proper 0.001 resolution scale (50 bucks will do) so you can finally start comparing things with more confidence toward components and their effects. From your words I consider a big chance that your harmine is contaminated with harmaline. It is impossible for harmine alone to be longer lasting than full rue spectrum in comparable doses.
 
ShamensStamen
#9 Posted : 1/13/2018 8:10:38 PM
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For me Harmaline seems to level out at about 2 hours after ingestion, whereas Harmine continues on until about 3 to 3 and a half hours then it levels out. It does feel cleaner/gentler compared to Harmaline though. For me Harmalas in general seem to last about 8 hours with a good dose, and CYP2D6 and CYP1A2 inhibition from the Harmalas usually stays around until hour 10 or so.
 
starway6
#10 Posted : 1/13/2018 9:18:48 PM

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Jagube wrote:
I took harmine (extracted from rue) with ACRB tea a few days ago. It lasted much longer than my usual rue + ACRB. A good 8 hours of full-on effects, including strong tracers, followed by another 24 hour afterglow.

Not sure what the dose was, as I used a 0.1g scale. It was showing 0.3g, so must have been between 200-400mg.

I loved it, it was very clean, mighty strong and I didn't feel cold like I do from rue.
There was something missing though, in comparison to B. caapi.

The effects of the ACRB were also stronger than with rue, longer lasting and came on more reliably.

I feel it would work well with mushrooms, blue.magic. The short half-life values stated don't seem to match experience, maybe something changes with oral administration, e.g. slow release from the gut into the blood and brain.




8 hours is a long trip..congrats!!! that shows how powerfull rue can be..

You say it was a clean comfortable experiance without naseua?

Was your experiance very colorfull and visual simular to Alex grey paintings?

I ask this because i only have ACRB and recently extracted Rue...

I was told a starting dose of rue extract was 15 to 20 mgs ..maybe this is dosage for vaping?

Im turning my rue extract into freebase because i can easily mix it into orange juice to use it oraly..
 
ShamensStamen
#11 Posted : 1/13/2018 10:26:27 PM
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starway6 wrote:
I was told a starting dose of rue extract was 15 to 20 mgs ..maybe this is dosage for vaping?


Yeah i'd assume that's for vaping, or maybe an oral microdose. For me, i need about 180mgs to 200mgs of freebased Rue extract, freebased purified Harmaline/Harmine extract or about 200mgs of freebased Harmine. I've tried 300mgs of Harmine a couple times but that was with the Harmala reverse tolerance built up so it was a bit difficult to tell what Harmine could do at that dosage. Then i tried 250mgs of Harmine without the reverse tolerance and it felt like a bit too much, i had that heavy dosage Harmala body load feeling, though definitely felt cleaner than Rue/Harmaline but still could tell it was a bit too much, so i backed the dosage down to 200mgs which seems to be the sweet spot for me. I tried going up to 215mgs after 200mgs but once again it just felt like a bit too much. I've definitely gotta investigate pure Harmine further though, as well as mixing it with the Rue to boost the amount of Harmine in the Rue to balance out the Harmaline, also need to try mixing Rue and Caapi together.

Also remember that the Harmalas are metabolized by CYP liver enzymes and some people are fast or slow metabolizers of the Harmalas, so for those who are fast metabolizers they'll probably need a bit more of a dosage and it may not last as long for them, and slow metabolizers might not need as much and it may last a bit longer. There's also CYP2D6 inhibitors and other CYP enzyme inhibitors (which Harmalas themselves can do with CYP2D6 and CYP1A2) which can potentiate the Harmalas so that a lower dosage can be used, which i think may have something to do with the Harmala reverse tolerance.

And yeah i don't bother doing manske extractions unless i want the pure Harmala extract, but i generally stick to freebased Harmala/Rue extracts and encapsulate the freebased powder, it works very well as is and i can take it orally or smoke it.
 
Jees
#12 Posted : 1/13/2018 11:06:10 PM

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ShamensStamen wrote:
For me Harmaline seems to level out at about 2 hours after ingestion, whereas Harmine continues on until about 3 to 3 and a half hours then it levels out...

Harmaline last longest. I suspect something skewed with the outcome.
 
Jagube
#13 Posted : 1/13/2018 11:24:12 PM

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starway6 wrote:
You say it was a clean comfortable experiance without naseua?

Was your experiance very colorfull and visual simular to Alex grey paintings?

I ask this because i only have ACRB and recently extracted Rue...

I don't easily get nausea, so my lack of nausea is not a good indicator, but yes, it was a very clean experience and more like caapi than rue. I did get a very slight headache, probably due to the fact I wasn't drinking water and got somewhat dehydrated. Time went by so fast...

The dosage must have been closer to the higher end of the 200-400mg estimate.

ACRB tends to be more colorful and visual than the other admixtures. In this particular experience it wasn't so visual though; more euphoric / antidepressant, an explosion of love and joy. I felt the harmine dose was disproportionately stronger than the ACRB.

Today I went on a forest walk where I took 100mg of my 'harmaline' (weighed using a milligram scale, which arrived yesterday) with the same dose of ACRB (around 4.5 - 5g) and felt hardly anything of the harmaline, and no ACRB effects at all. To keep the logistics simple, I prepared a single dose at home and put it in a small bottle to take with me. I first dissolved the 100mg harmaline with vinegar and it took quite a bit of vinegar to dissolve (more than the harmine did the other day). Then I mixed that highly acidic harmaline solution with a dose of ACRB tea.
I suspect the harmaline was highly contaminated with sodium carbonate, that's why I didn't feel it. It's also possible that the highly acidic solution destroyed the DMT in the ACRB tea.

I'm going to try a larger dose of my 'harmaline', and do it at home so I can top up easily.
 
melotikaci
#14 Posted : 1/14/2018 12:12:04 AM

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Jagube wrote:

I suspect the harmaline was highly contaminated with sodium carbonate, that's why I didn't feel it. It's also possible that the highly acidic solution destroyed the DMT in the ACRB tea.

That's highly unlikely. Acetic acid has around 2.5ph. If ph of your gastric acid isn't below that you should see a doctor Very happy

Maybe 100mg wasn't enough for MAO inhibition? not familiar with oral dosage. Yeah, it could have been contaminated or smth.
 
ShamensStamen
#15 Posted : 1/14/2018 12:51:08 AM
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Jees wrote:
Harmaline last longest. I suspect something skewed with the outcome.


Harmine and Harmaline have different times they kick in, Harmaline for me evens out after two hours, Harmine evens out after about 2 and a half to 3 hours, they both seem to last about 8 hours ime. It happens pretty consistently and it's definitely pure Harmine, feels very different than Harmaline and from my purified Harmala extracts, and has some different characteristics compared to Harmaline and seems a bit gentler on the body and mind than Harmaline.
 
ShamensStamen
#16 Posted : 1/14/2018 1:00:02 AM
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Jagube wrote:
I suspect the harmaline was highly contaminated with sodium carbonate, that's why I didn't feel it. It's also possible that the highly acidic solution destroyed the DMT in the ACRB tea.


Acidity shouldn't harm the DMT in the Acacia, i've made acidic teas before, worked fine but smelled and tasted more strongly compared to non-acidified teas which i prefer the non-acidified. A simple way to make a tea ime is the jar method, weigh out a dose of root powder, put it into a jar with like 300 to 400mls of room temp water, put the lid on the jar and shake the jar very well periodically throughout the day and let it sit for at least 6 hours but i let mine sit overnight. Then filter the liquid through a coffee filter and it should be good to go, i've only ever needed to do one pull on the root powder using room temp water or even cold water in the fridge, but you can do a few if you want to. No boiling necessary unless you want a bulk tea, imo/ime.

As for possible washing soda contamination, when i make my freebased extract, i filter the extract off through a coffee filter, and then run water on it to wash away any residual washing soda, then i roll up the coffee filter and squeeze it between my hands in a paper towel to wring out any extra water, it also compacts the freebased powder, and then i open up the coffee filter and allow the extract to dry, and once dry i scrape the extract off into a container.

And you definitely need i would say close to 180mgs to 200mgs of extract, i mean 150mgs may cut it, but for me 180mgs to 200mgs was the proper dosage for good MAO-A inhibition, 100mgs is too low imo.
 
Jagube
#17 Posted : 1/14/2018 10:28:00 AM

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ShamensStamen wrote:
And you definitely need i would say close to 180mgs to 200mgs of extract, i mean 150mgs may cut it, but for me 180mgs to 200mgs was the proper dosage for good MAO-A inhibition, 100mgs is too low imo.

It was harmaline(*) I took, and I had read you only need 100mg harmaline (or 200mg harmine) for full MAO inhibition.

* It was obtained as outlined here. I did my first precipitation at pH 8.5 (mostly harmine), 2nd @ 9.5 (harmine and harmaline), and 3rd @ 11 (mostly harmaline). I used the 3rd precip in this bioassay.
It was washed with tap water / decanted ~8 times.
 
ShamensStamen
#18 Posted : 1/14/2018 9:14:16 PM
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Yeah for good MAO-A inhibition, you need about 200mgs of Harmaline as well, at least ime. 100mgs won't do anything. I've made freebased Rue and freebased Harmala extracts and it's always been about 180mgs to 200mgs for a dose for me, anything less doesn't provide full MAO-A inhibition that i've been able to tell.
 
tatt
#19 Posted : 1/14/2018 9:36:20 PM
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ShamensStamen wrote:
Yeah for good MAO-A inhibition, you need about 200mgs of Harmaline as well, at least ime. 100mgs won't do anything. I've made freebased Rue and freebased Harmala extracts and it's always been about 180mgs to 200mgs for a dose for me, anything less doesn't provide full MAO-A inhibition that i've been able to tell.


Yup, I agree with this.

200mg harmala freebase provides a pretty powerful experience for me [with around 70-80mg dmt]. I've taken less before, though it's never provided the same depth and intensity as 200+ mg ime, definitely not the same as when you're fully inhibited Very happy . I like in the neighborhood of 250-280mg occasionally, though I use less dmt [40-50mg].
 
Jagube
#20 Posted : 1/14/2018 9:44:25 PM

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So why is it said that harmaline is twice as potent an MAOI as harmine?

If 200mg harmine is sufficient for full MAOI, and harmaline is twice as potent, why isn't 100mg harmaline enough?
 
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