Anyone experience depression following San Pedro experiences?
I'm not blaming depression on the great cactus, just sincerely looking for some personal insight on your own experience or possible physical or mental causes.
This would encompass all entheogens from Psilocybin mushrooms, to Salvia Divinorum, MDMA, RCs, Iboga and Ayahuasca/Aya analogues.


From childhood I have dealt with depression and intense anxiety. In my late teens depression escalated with suicide attempts and interest in taking drugs. Cannabis has been a constant companion, though not curing depression, making it more livable dealing with these conditions.

Still I will recommend San Pedro to those in emotional distress...because I am grateful for the love it has shared.

In my mid-twenties now, I have consumed Trichocereus cactus brews around twenty times in the past years and there seems to be a duality of contentedness and depression following experiences.
For instance, when I began consuming mescaline-containing brews there was an increased "solar" energy in my system and a lasting feeling of well being at least for a few days or weeks. I feel as though I became close allies with the San Pedro spirit soon after and the cactus felt it necessary to let me in on some divinatory awareness. Reading or grasping the future seemed as simple as developing a thought. Though I didn't trust the truth that the cactus spread and I found myself confronting situations too late.
My best friend passed away last July and before that a long-term partner of mine decided to break things off.
Following those incidences it turned out I would be homeless for much of the year. On the bright side it encouraged more traveling. Still traveling the road of healing... Only recently have things been looking up. Now I'm living in a camper on a farm with lovely animals and people but still,
symptoms of depression and self-destructive thoughts weigh heavily on my mind daily.
So I have been dealing with an up and down mental state for a few years and while plant teachers can definitely help relieve depression temporarily or lend positive insight, they may in turn create a more hyperaware mindset that is destructive to social circles and work ethic.
I have taken extensive breaks(from tryptamines especially) here and there to focus on living on the ground, not up in the clouds. That being said, still Phalaris grass has been honestly the main contributor of healthy afterglows since exploring entheogens.
I must also note I have been living vegan for seven years, if anyone has strategies for replenishing serotonin from vegetable and fruit sources that would dearly help. Being financially poor and vegan sometimes is difficult to find the right nutrients on a limited budget.
During the cactus experience there is a light ignited in my soul like a fire burning through the aeons. Often times, that glow will simmer down as the mundane world piles its shit up so high it's hard to see the green grass beyond the dung.
I do take responsibility for all of my actions and know that what goes on in my life, I am accounted for.
MDMA has not had a negative effect on my cognition that I know of, so it's hazy to me if it's a phenethylamine/serotonin related phenomenon. Certain depression is unique following a San Pedro experience. It's hard to put into words what I mean but I guess it would be a contrast from a post-tryptamine(shroom) induced depression.
Most of the time i simply conclude "it's just life".
I'm just looking to feeling healthy and balanced again.
A healthy body breeds a healthy mind.

Thanks for reading and any insights.
<3
Chimp

Hey Chimp,

Commiserations on your situation, I'll share what I can, and feel free to disregard any of it as the ramblings of another deluded monkey ;-))

OK, the things that jump out of your post, in no particular order are:

1. Your bereavement and relationship break-up in themselves, are powerful events that could disturb anybody's mental equilibrium, and result in (or deepen existing) depression. This is normal, and your grief should be allowed to run its course, but not take up residence.

2. It's generally believed that (regular) cannabis use does little to moderate depression, and can often worsen it. Even though you say it makes things more liveable, that may be a "false" impression that arises from the regular transition from "Man, it's all gone to shit again..." to "Ahhh, nothing beats sparking up!". The transition feels positive, but the underlying effects are probably not, as at the very least, weed tends to reduce motivation and increase apathy, neither of which are likely to be helpful to you right now. Things get that much harder to make out clearly, in the sweet, green fog...! Please understand I am speaking from personal experience, and not moralising per se, and I am struck by Intezam's use of the phrase "the CannaWitch"...that says a lot, I think.

3. With any substance (mesc, MDMA, LSD, and cannabis too, etc), you go up and you come down. We all know this, it's just psychodynamic gravity at work. Even if we'd like to, we cannot stay high indefinitely. Perceiving that downwards phase as depressive depends on what you come back down to, IME. So your question as to whether there is a specific kind of post-mescaline depression is maybe less a case of any innate property of mescaline, and more an unfortunate consequence of your current circumstances? I've only had the opportunity to try mesc a couple of times, but the afterglow seemed to last about 6 months...it was, for me, by far the most non-existent comedown I have ever experienced. So, 20 times in a [single?] year sounds like quite a lot of sessions, on the same, powerful substance, for most people (curanderos etc excepted). How did you manage to integrate all the stuff prior to each successive session? I only ask because, for me, I'd probably start to feel fairly overloaded with information quite quickly, if I attempted that, and if I was depressed, well, that would definitely worsen things, as I struggled to integrate/make-sense-of a growing heap of "abstract" data... Quite a few people here have written of "depersonalization" following heavy tryptamine use (I know mescaline is actually a PE, but...) and some of their accounts share similarities with yours. Personally, I've found microdosing rue/caapi to be helpful during dark periods, but equally, a few others have not, so YMMV/research necessary, if that's something you might consider.

4. I don't wanna get flamed by others, but the 7 years vegan diet rings some alarm bells too. Essentially, just like novel RC's, veganism is still fundamentally a recent, experimental innovation, as far as humans are concerned, and whose long-term effects are still not fully understood. Pre-20th C, as far as we are aware, no group (other than perhaps very strict Jains) has practised consistent veganism. And in the modern sense, it invariably relies to some degree on novel, processed foods and supplements, in order to achieve a notionally balanced diet. I say all as this as someone who is 95% vegetarian, and who has tried veganism in the past, and it was listening to my body and mind, while keeping my ethics forefront, that led me to step back that 5%, and I feel it made a massive difference, and put me in a stable, sustainable position. Each quarter, I'll have an organic, grass-fed steak; once a month, some wild sea-fish. Once a week, some raw-milk cheese, some yoghurt. I avoid processed, soy-based products, "meat substitutes" & supplements, and eat only fruit & veggies, and some ferments, with some grains/pulses/nuts etc the rest of the time. Tryptophan in one of the key nutrients for mental well-being and I'm not sure it's fully understood how well that is absorbed from vegan sources, as opposed to lacto-carno sources. Again, historically, pretty much all groups that were almost vegan (usually due to poverty/necessity) have tended to consume some dairy, as far as we can tell.

A quick search found this.

5. There's been a lot of new research into the gut-brain axis lately, and the seemingly "unexpected" effect of the gut-microbiome on brain chemistry and myriad mental conditions, from autism through to schizophrenia, and including depression. The general argument is that in a society where processed food, antibiotics and other pharmaceuticals are widely consumed, many people have messed up microbiomes, this leads to improper digestion and inflammation, which can result in various conditions. By re-establishing a broader range of bacteria, many conditions can resolve themselves in relatively short periods of time. Crucially, it could be a way to induce significant positive health changes with relatively cheap, minor, non-pharma interventions...primarily, eating lots of probiotic foods: live yogurt, raw sauerkraut, raw cheese, kombucha, kefir, and possibly taking some probiotic supplements. Oh, coffee and chocolate, beer and red wine too! It is suspected that the people most at risk of a messed-up microbiome are those who were born via C-section (missing out on the microflora of the birth canal transit), bottle-fed, or given frequent/excessive courses of antibiotics (or some other phramaceuticals). If this sounds like something that might be applicable to you, you might want to take a look at this.

Anyway, best of luck. Your self-awareness shines through your OP, and I'm sure given a little more time and illumination, you'll find the ladder you need, and emerge a lot stronger and wiser than you ever thought possible. Hang on in there, and don't forget to love yourself, now and again...

And as has been said frequently before, "It is no measure of health, to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society." J. Krishnamurti

Hi Chimp Z,

I get what I call a "tail" from mescaline, and other phenythlamines too. For me, the mescaline experience it one of the more empathogenic, loving experiences during the course of the trip and the glow lasts for about 24 hours after. Then I (and my pertner too) inevitably get a depressive swing that lasts for a few days. With no negative stimulus from life, we end up crabby and short with each other and in general.

It took me about half a dozen mesc trips to begin to notice a pattern. I chalk it up to a seratonin swing, but don't really know.

I really feel for you and your current situation. I know it's a small thing, but I have enjoyed every interaction I've had with you over at STS (Frog here) and think very highly of you as a person. You may not even remember it, but I know you chatted a bit with my partner, psykinetic, over at STS when he joined at a time when he was in a crucial place trying to figure out what was next after kicking a long term heroin addiction. You probably didn't know at the time, but you were one of the friendly people who gave him a lifeline in his time of need. If you need someone to talk to or your situation changes and we can help you in any way, just reach out. I'm good for an ear, at the very least.

Depression can be common following amphetamine and phenethylamine consumption, there are semi-active methylenedioxy-phenethylamines and Isoquinoline and benzylisoquinoline alkaloids present which may alter the after affects of trichocereus ingestion...

along with mescaline, lophophine, homopiperonylamine, lobivine, 3,4-dimethoxyphenylethylamine, hordenine, tyramine, 3-methoxytyramine, 3,5-dimethoxy-4-hydroxyphenylethylamine, 3,4-dimethoxy-5-hydroxyphenylethylamine, and anhalonidine are present...

lophophine, homopiperonylamine and lobivine all share similar structure to methylenedioxy amphetamines, and while the do not share similar activity, they may contribute to the mescaline experience, and after effects, these compounds may also have active/semi-active metabolites which may also alter your general attitude afterwards...

Though to me it sounds like you may have issues unrelated to mescaline consumption, try buddhism, or psychology techniques, try keeping negative influences to a minimum, listen to positive music, watch positive movies, and only participate in positive conversation, try to focus on what makes life beautiful...

Most suffering is self inflicted, and a simple alteration in "point of view" and actions can make world's of difference...

I hope you find happiness,

-eg

That's some good info entheogenic-gnosis.

I myself haven't noticed any depression following San Pedro use, but I've had experiences like yours with other substances (which I now avoid) like MDMA, Cocaine, and Amphetamines.

One thing which helps me regulate the minor little depressions I've always had is strenuous exercise. I've even found that one way to help insure a good experience with Cactus or other Psychedelics is a 10 mile walk or 40 mile bike ride immediately prior to use. Physically exhausted, relaxed and with endorphins flowing is a great way to begin a trip, and keeping the endorphins flowing in the days after tripping has to be good for your mental state too.

As an added bonus, the one time I chugged cactus tea immediately after a long bike ride I started to feel the effects in 15 minutes.

Perhaps taking anti-oxidants prior to taking the mescaline may help? I know that some amphetamine users do this to combat come down depression. Don't have personal experience with its efficacy though..

i never experienced depression from mesc.
i might get depressed from lack of mesc though.

I agree with this a lot. rollsafe.org has a nice MDMA antioxidant regimen, same family so why not? Since tripping can be an exhausting experience ensure you have time and space to rest and eat well. Sleep deprivation alone gives me mood swings. I have become an early tripper and find a world of difference if I can keep the circadian rhythm.

Are rollsafe still recommending grapefruit juice while rolling?

I'd be very careful taking any of their so-called advice

A dear thank you to Chan, Continuum, Wolfnippletip, null, skoobysnax, and entheogenic gnosis for your words.
As the days ravel on after my last experience with homegrown Trichocereus Pachanoi it seems a energetic wisdom is hatching out like an eagle in the moonlight, yet to experience the fabulous new rays of dawn.
Let this light carry this vessel into a fresh breath of wholehearted transformation.
I have taken into account and applied everything y'all have recommended in the past days and will continue to up my antioxidants and 5htp. Also took a week off cannabis before this post and today took a hefty bong rip and it is definitely uplifting more so than a constant barrage of purple clouds is on a daily basis.
Inhale
Exhale
There is space in between
A soul breathes new fire

Love
Chimp Z

Hey Chimp!

Dear god I can relate so much to the things you talk about.

My own mental health has been up & down my whole life. Ultimately it has been finding satisfying work, a good place to live, and loving allies (plant, human, and animal) that have settled me down from the anxiety, raised me up from the depression. I still go there all the time but it becomes easier to return to center as I age.

I do notice that I get much more crashy or depressive after taking any phen, from MDA (god damn I came down so hard recently from MDA...) to Trichocereus.

I will agree with one of the commenters above that my own mental health improved dramatically when I stopped eating a soley vegan diet and started to incorporate animal proteins and especially fats. Upping healthy fat intake can be huge, the brain is basically made of fat. I have seen documentation of methamphetamine induced brain damage healed by the person eating a very fat heavy diet for a long period of time, I think mostly lard. That does not have to be animal fats but fish oil is the classic. I hear that flax/olive oil can work well too. Also I second eating lots of fermented foods to improve gut flora. More serotonin is produced in the gut than in the brain.

Sleep a lot. A teacher of mine suggests that anyone who is burned out from stress/not enough sleep/amphetamine use/ etc (basically living in America) should every once and a while just go to bed for 2 days straight, never get up. I have never been able to do this but making sure to get 8-10 hours of sleep or even just bed rest (i.e in bed, lights out, not reading or looking at a screen, for 8-10 hours) per night. Especially if you have been up all night dancing with the maestros make sure to sleep a bunch for several days prior.

5-HTP can be great, sounds like you know about that one. L-Theanine can also be really helpful for anxiety. It is processed by the body into GABA, which is one of out main calming neurotransmitters.

Regular physical exercise & meditation can be key too, walks in the woods.

Herbs that can really help with mood include Milky Oats, Hawthorne, Ganoderma (Reishi), and Skullcap. These are all thought of as trophorestorative nervines, meaning they calm the mind while helping to strengthen and heal the entire nervous system.

St. John's Wort can also bring some sun into those dark places. You already know Eleuthero & Oplopanax for strength, energy.

Please do know that I have so much love for you and clearly does so much of this community. I think you know about the Free Herbal Clinic downtown, those folks will give you herbs & help you strategize. I would also give you herbs if you want em.

Cannabis is tricky. I love her so much & sometimes giving that plant a break can be really fucking helpful.

I have also found working with Silene capensis to be a wonderful way to get in touch with your dreams, bring in some light to those dark places.

Finally, it is totally normal to have wonky mental health. It means you are sensitive to the world around you. It can't always be unicorns & rainbows, hey? The darkness has it's place and it's power.

<3 <3 <3 ~O

I personally find all entheogens leave me 'wanting' very little from life. I can be quite content not doing much for months at a time. They cause a more inward journey that is often not conducive to social life.

For me its a balance thing. I think its important to set some very real goals that you want to achieve and go for them. Traveling, floating form place to place and searching is importnant but I find it unsettling as well. For me its important to stop taking all entheogens and put my energies into the goals Ive set, or else I get very little done and this I find depressing on occasion.

Think of things you want and do them. There are plenty of 'gonna doers'. Be a do-er and you will find good amount of gratification from that.

Then balance the egotistical side effects of this with a deep experience once or twice a year.

Just my thoughts and what works for me Chimp, I just find that being focused more of the time is better for me. I also had to stop smoking pot altogether because it greatly hindered this process.

peace!

Good post here. I agree.

What does freedom mean to you?

-eg

Sorry, I should have elaborated.

I feel when I get stuck in a rut, or when I'm experiencing compulsive destructive behaviors such as addiction, or lack of motivation, or depression that an entheogen is exactly what's needed.

Entheogens tend to provide me freedom from my self constructed prisons, and tend to push me into new phases in life. They cause a psychological examination from a perspective you could not have obtained otherwise...the reason why people talk to a shrink is for an alternate perspective and analysis of their issues, with entheogens, you become the "alternate perspective" that's needed.

...but then again, I only use entheogens when I NEED to, and not because I want to...it's more of a medicine than a recreation, and it's not something I have to do often.

everybody is different though, and often the best cure can occur with a simple shift in perspective and outlook, take buddhism as a guide to being happy and ignore the spiritual.stuff if that's what it takes, because the majority of Buddhism is explaining simple errors in perspective which cause one to suffer.




-eg

I have never had a single issue with the rollsafe protocol or grapefruit juice and MDMA. Used it for at least 3 yearsat least once every 3 months. sometime with juice, sometimes not but always with the antioxidants.

n=1, and note that:


And although we:


Countless thousands don't.

And therein lies the problem.

As far as the OP is concerned, the anti-oxidant portion of the protocol should be fine to help the recovery period. Sometimes I think it's like 1000's don't care what they put in their bodies as long as they get off. This isn't cited either but I found it here

http://thedea.org/preloading.html
"• Grapefruit juice: Some grapefruit juice has a (naturally occurring) chemical in it that can interfere with the metabolism of certain drugs by inhibiting an enzyme in your liver called CYP3A4. If a drug is aggressively broken down by this 3A4 enzyme, then grapefruit juice can significantly increase the drug's effect by interfering with its breakdown. Although MDMA can be broken down by this enzyme, it's a minor contributor to the drug's metabolism. As such, inhibiting CYP3A4 would likely have little effect."

So just ditch the juice anyway. I never felt it made a real difference. I can however feel a big difference with a good nutritional preload. Night and day.

I have found a slight to moderate rebound depression after recent cactus tea experiences. It kind of follows when one has spent a good twelve hours of scintillating bliss, although this conclusion might be somewhat confounded by the recent UK referendum result which has left most people I know feeling rather downcast. Also I included (surprise-surprise!) nutmeg extract as a booster, which has its own rebound effects as well.

Ever the muddied study where I'm concerned, but I'm feeling tip-top again 6 days later so there's no complaints here. I've kept that "Wow! Mescaline!" feeling at heart. Anything suboptimal is merely inspiration to improve - or better learn acceptance for those things which one cannot oneself change.

Hi Chimp Z, a late response to say I too wrestle with depression, though often find cactus use helps put the elements contributing to it into perspective. Key for me is to write about the experience afterward - what was I experiencing prior to it, what was I expecting going into it, what did I see about me and my emotions, what new insights or releases were experienced, etc.? This seems to help me hang onto the afterglow for longer and be able to refer back to the experience itself when I'm feeling down or frustrated with life.

In my past I found that very frequent use of LSD during my college years enhanced my depression to the point of crisis. Years later I figured out why - I was tripping as often as possible without losing the effect to increased tolerance, which became several times per week. I received much information during this time and had no idea what to do with it. I didn't write about it or even think much about it, just got ready to do it again as soon as I could. This led to an emotional crash and burn. In my society (USA) and most of the rest of the world we don't educate people on how to use entheogens correctly. How I wish to have access to all that LSD again to do it right! Oh well, in the end it educated me despite myself.

Back in my day we didn't have such a useful thing as the internet through which to share ideas, and there are many good ones shared on this thread.

Living is a hard thing to do. You have experienced much recent loss. I wish you peace in coming to terms with it and patience in dealing with yourself on the emotional roller coaster.