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Pure tryptamine? Reported psychedelic. Options
 
PsilocybeChild
#1 Posted : 5/26/2016 10:14:27 AM

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Quote:
It is true. I had to make an account on here just to post this reply.

My buddy, we'll call him D, comes to me with a brand new offering, "Pure Tryptamine." Now I know better than this so I figure someone is trying to hawk some tryptamine RC and they are afraid of scaring people with the real name of it, so they are passing it off as "pure tryptamine." So my first reaction to D is, "Dude, go ask your guy <i>which</i> tryptamine it is. We're big boys, we can handle the truth."

I ask to see the pills and he pulls out about 20 size 0 capsules, each almost totally filled with a very pure looking clear/white powder, very sparkly crystals. There has to be at least 500mg in each capsule. I didn't have my milligram scale, but I can rule out very many tryptamines just by looking at the capsules. Now I have seen very many different kinds of powder/crystals from quite a number of different street drugs and RCs from various vendors and I can say this was a very clean chemical produced in a professional lab. The consistency, color and texture of the powder were all uniform throughout. Sometimes you see there are some chucks in there and some powder, but this was all powder-- no chunks of brick and no slight differences in the color or texture of the powder. It was all fine fluffy powder and as I mentioned, it was remarkably sparkly in the light. Usually even with pure compounds produced in laboratories you see some of the powder is nice and white and some is slightly off white, that kinda thing. This stuff was not like that at all. This did not look like something somebody ordered from China and put int heir own capsules. This stuff looked nice and clean, consistent, pure.

D doesn't know what's what, pharmacologically speaking. So I try to tell him, "Dude, there's absolutely no way that this is just pure tryptamine. That would not make you trip at all." So D gets me on the phone with his guy (we don't get to know each other's real names, I just call him Dale) and Dale turns out to be friends with the guy who makes the stuff. Dale explains that this is a special formulation his buddy has been working on for 3 or 4 years that nano-encapsulates the tryptamine in a special MAOI carrier.

Dale has used it 7 times and knows many people who have taken this stuff dozens of times. No one has had any ill effects yet. Trip comes on in 15 minutes, lasts 4 to 6 hours. As stated above, an extremely clean tryptamine like experience. When I said, "I would imagine this stuff would be more like shrooms or low dose oral DMT than LSD," he said, "it's an experience all it's own." But yes they describe it as very clean, very pure, no body load, no stimulation.

Dale says the pills we got are 700mg and they have had users take up to 14 grams in 24 hours with no problems. He advised to take it on it's own the first time, totally sober, not even any cannabis. However, and this is the one thing that makes me doubt the story, Dale said of his 7 uses, he has mixed it with small amounts of MDMA 5 of those times, like a 100 mg. I'm like, "Dude, you're mixing MDMA w an MAOI?" I asked him to find out exactly which MAOI is in there so we can nail down the duration for food restriction purposes.

As a lifelong psychonaut and psychedelic enthusiast, I try to stay abreast of all the latest developments in the field of psychoactive compounds, so this is very exciting to me. But this was an accident waiting to happen. I get off the phone with Dale and explain what the deal is to D. D is aware of how MAOIs potentiate oral DMT, so I explain to him the strategy behind the tryptamine+MAOI combination. But he is surprised and told me that Dale never explained the food restrictions to him. Next time I talk to Dale (if I ever do, but I want to bc I want to hear his reply from the guy on which MAOI is in there) I will tell them they need to print out a list of everything to avoid while on MAOIs and print out a copy for each and every person they give these little pills to. And he should put a skull and crossbones on each pill so no one will take them without someone explaining, "Oh that's because you can't take the pill until you read this piece of paper first (the list of food and medicine restrictions)."

My guy, D, had no idea there was an MAOI in there and indeed only knew what an MAOI was because I reminded him about how oral DMT is inactive unless you have an MAOI first or at the same time. D is on some pretty heavy medication that would definitely kill him if he took it with the MAOI. He and his girl like to do coke and speed and they definitely would have mixed all that stuff with the "pure tryptamine" if no one had warned them against it.

In my opinion, they should not be telling people it's ok to mix this with MDMA if it really does contain an MAOI. They may be having ok experiences mixing it with very small amounts of pure MDMA (although 100mg is really more of a "common" dose than a "small" does IME) but eventually someone will mix it w a dirty pill containing meth or something and somebody's gonna die.

At any rate, I have not taken it yet, nor has my buddy D. But we will be sending this off for analysis very soon and I will update this thread once we get the results.


He never got back with the results of the analysis.
This would be pretty amazing if it were true.

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PsilocybeChild
#2 Posted : 5/26/2016 11:38:38 AM

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(with 250 mg, intravenously) "Tryptamine was infused intravenously over a period of up to 7.5 minutes. Physical changes included an increases in blood pressure, in the amplitude of the patellar reflex, and in pupillary diameter. The subjective changes are not unlike those seen with small doses of LSD. A point-by-point comparison between the tryptamine and LSD syndromes reveals a close similarity which is consistent with the hypothesis that tryptamine and LSD have a common mode of action."


from TIHKAL
https://www.erowid.org/l...ne/tihkal/tihkal53.shtml
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entheogenic-gnosis
#3 Posted : 5/26/2016 11:52:26 AM
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Quote:
This quotation is from a paper by Martin and Sloan, published almost thirty years ago, that stands as our only measure of the human response to tryptamine. The first of the two reports in the comments took place 5 years earlier, with depressed patients and at very low levels of drug administration. It had already been established in rat and dog studies that tryptamine was known to enter the brain but, due to rapid metabolism, had only a short duration of central activity. Hence, the researchers in both these studies chose to employ an intravenous route of administration. There are a number of valuable points to be made in this latter report describing the 250 mg. study.


So I'm skeptical that tryptamine could have a 4-6 hour duration, specially through oral administration...

If it's orally active it is probably a tryptamine compound with bulky alkyl chains off the amine nitrogen*, or perhaps a substitution at position 4...

*
Quote:
Apparently the MAO systems do not chomp up the dialkylamines higher than methyl. Certainly the dipropyl and the diisopropyl are active by mouth, and so is the diethyl. TIHKAL/shulgin


here's what TIHKAL has to say:

Quote:
DOSAGE : 250 mg, intravenously

DURATION : Very short

COMMENTS : (with up to 10 mg, intravenously) "There were no changes in blood pressure or self-rating scores."

(with 250 mg, intravenously) "Tryptamine was infused intravenously over a period of up to 7.5 minutes. Physical changes included an increases in blood pressure, in the amplitude of the patellar reflex, and in pupillary diameter. The subjective changes are not unlike those seen with small doses of LSD. A point-by-point comparison between the tryptamine and LSD syndromes reveals a close similarity which is consistent with the hypothesis that tryptamine and LSD have a common mode of action."

EXTENSIONS AND COMMENTARY : This quotation is from a paper by Martin and Sloan, published almost thirty years ago, that stands as our only measure of the human response to tryptamine. The first of the two reports in the comments took place 5 years earlier, with depressed patients and at very low levels of drug administration. It had already been established in rat and dog studies that tryptamine was known to enter the brain but, due to rapid metabolism, had only a short duration of central activity. Hence, the researchers in both these studies chose to employ an intravenous route of administration. There are a number of valuable points to be made in this latter report describing the 250 mg. study. TIHKAL/shulgin


Quote:
Most instructive was the statement that the tryptamine syndrome was similar to the LSD syndrome. This equation has been broadly quoted, but it is valuable to read, first hand, the explicit observations of central activity that supported this conclusion. These are quoted here:

"Shortly after the onset of the infusions, three of the patients became aware of the experimental setting and complained of a heaviness, tiredness or numbness of the limbs which subsequently became generalized to other parts of the body. With continued infusion, a variety of other visceral symptoms and signs emerged which have been previously described following administration of LSD and mescaline, including nausea, vomiting, dizziness, sweating, acute or dulled hearing, metallic taste, and a heaviness of body. Further, in 2 of the 4 subjects, there were visual changes (subsequently described as a heaviness behind the eyes, a clouding of vision, and lines or cobwebs)."

The tryptamine experience sounds pretty heavy, and it is almost as if every negative LSD or mescaline property was exhumed and displayed, to justify tryptamine as being similar to this widely accepted psychedelic drug.


I would be very skeptical...

...but that's just me, I honestly can't say whether tryptamine is active in some sense or not, but I can say that elements of the story lead me to doubt it...

-eg
 
PsilocybeChild
#4 Posted : 5/26/2016 5:29:03 PM

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Yes, but I'm talking about with an maoi. I've read about the tired heavy effects from huge oral doses without maoi and small iv doses.
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benzyme
#5 Posted : 5/26/2016 6:25:18 PM

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it wouldn't surprise me.
IIRC, tryptamine is a 5HT modulator, but it is rapidly oxydized by CYP2D6.
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entheogenic-gnosis
#6 Posted : 5/28/2016 3:40:07 PM
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I honestly couldn't tell you...

All I can say is elements of the story presented leave me very skeptical.

Here are some bits and pieces of research I encountered, some relate very well to this topic, others not so much, I tried to keep the information relevant.


Quote:
Tryptamine acts as a non-selective serotonin receptor agonist and serotonin-norepinephrine-dopamine releasing agent (SNDRA), with a preference for evoking serotonin and dopamine release over norepinephrine release.[5][6][7] It is rapidly metabolized by MAO-A and MAO-B,[8] and for this reason, has a very short in vivo half-life.

Tryptamine is documented as a noncompetitive inhibitor of serotonin N-acetyltransferase (SNAT) in mosquitoes.[9] SNAT catalyzes the anabolic metabolism of serotonin into N-acetylserotonin, another neuromodulator and the immediate precursor for melatonin. -Wikipedia


Serotonin-norepinephrine-dopamine releasing agent with an MAOI may lead to a hypertensive crisis or other complications...

Quote:
when tryptamine was injected into the PVN of rats pretreated with the monoamine oxidase inhibitor, pargyline, a strong anorectic effect was observed. The action of tryptamine in pargyline-treated rats was not affected by depletion of 5-HT levels in the PVN with PCPA. This indicates that the effect of tryptamine is not mediated by a release of endogenous 5-HT.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2529575



I'm sure there is some form of central activity, and an MAOI May potentiate this effect (it also may present an opportunity for potential complications...), but I would still be skeptikal.


Quote:
Tryptophan, the metabolic precursor to tryptamine, is itself a centrally active amino acid. There is a complex, and little appreciated story associated with it as to its human psychopharmacology. Although tryptamine is only active parentally, tryptophan is active orally is directly converted to tryptamine, the two compounds must be considered in concert. TIHKAL;shulgin



Quote:
Tryptophan, a natural and nutritionally essential amino-acid, is a centrally active intoxicant and sleep-provider in man. It is converted metabolically to tryptamine which is a little bit psychedelic. When administered with methionine (another amino-acid known to methylate things) it produces methylated tryptamines, the two best studied being N-methyltryptamine (NMT) and N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT). The effects that result are hard to categorize, reflecting the diagnostic status of the patient. But something happens. In short, tryptophan, alone or in combination with MAO inhibitors or methyl donors, is a fabulous tool for exploring brain function. shulgin/TIHKAL


Shulgin never really dives in to the possibility of tryptamine functioning as an actual psychedelic, he acknowledges central activity, and elucidated its chemistry and some of its function, but nothing indicating true psychedelic potential.




...when we consume tryptophan, it can be 5-hydroxylated to 5-hydroxy-tryptophan, which is then decarboxalated to 5-hydroxy-tryptamine. This 5-hydroxy-tryptamine (serotonin) enters the pineal gland and becomes N-acetyl-5-methoxy-tryptamine (meletonin), which is cyclized to 6-methoxy-tetrahydro-beta-carboline (pinoline)


Or

The tryptophan can be decarboxalated, giving tryptamine

Which is the first step on the biosynthetic pathway of our endogenous dialkyltryptamines , tryptophan is decarboxylated (amino acid decarboxylase) to give tryptamine, this tryptamine is then methylated by the indole amine methyl transerase S-Adenosyl methionine (Sam), which becomes S-Adenosyl-L-homocysteine as it donates the methyl group, giving N-methyl-tryptamine, which is again methylated by SAM (which becomes SAH) giving N,N-dimethyltryptamine...





Honestly, I'm not sure what to make of this story, my research tells me to be very skeptical, everything I know about how tryptamine behaves in the body tells me to be skeptical, and elements of the story itself fill me with great doubt...

So that's where I stand, very skeptikal.


-eg
 
Nathanial.Dread
#7 Posted : 5/28/2016 4:11:02 PM

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Dale explains that this is a special formulation his buddy has been working on for 3 or 4 years that nano-encapsulates the tryptamine in a special MAOI carrier.


Wut?

Uh-huh. I find that really unlikely, honestly. While I'm sure the chemistry to do stuff like that exists, I don't think the only place we'd ever hear about it was some guy hawking RC drugs.

What is the MAOI? How does it work? What is the procedure by which you can encapsulate the tryptamine? What are the development costs associated with designing this preparation? Where did he get the money?

If he can answer all those questions, then maybe I'll buy it, but it sounds to me like your first instinct was on the money: this is a guy who's got just enough chemical literacy to pull the wool over the eyes of potential clients.

IF (and that's a big if) Tryp + MAOI is psychedelic, why go through the trouble of making this encapsulated structure when you could just go the Aya route and dose MAOI then Tryp? There's no reason for this fancy preparation to exist, unless the MAOI shell facilitates transport over the Blood-Brain Barrier or something like that.

And as Benzyme said, Tryp is metabolized by enzymes in addition to MAOs A and B, so you're still not getting the ideal effect. Maybe if you added some grapefruit juice...

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jamie
#8 Posted : 5/28/2016 5:39:35 PM

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It has been known for some time that tryptamine is active. Vaporization has been described as producing a 30 second or so flash of psychedelic effects. It likely would be potentiated by a RIMA or stronger MAOI.

This was discussed years ago here. I have no idea where that thread might be.
 
PsilocybeChild
#9 Posted : 5/28/2016 6:25:25 PM

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Guess MAOi + tryptamine and/or MAOi with 5-HTP is in the works after I get around to testing the bunch of plants I'm currently interested in first. Someone's gotta do it. Big grin
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benzyme
#10 Posted : 5/28/2016 7:37:54 PM

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i wouldn't suggest 5-htp with an maoi, serotonin syndrome isn't psychedelic.
not fun at all (I don't think the MAOI would inhibit AADC, which converts 5-htp to 5HT)
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PsilocybeChild
#11 Posted : 5/29/2016 2:29:36 AM

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Right that wouldn't be good, yikes. Ty for that reminder.
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