There's a good deal of discussion centered around peak experiance, or what is commonly called a breakthrough, yet this term is fairly vague, and as to the factors that caused it, these are even more vague.

Many people will say that they either "broke-through" or that they did not, and I'm curious as to what this actually means to these people.

Is this a simple subjective description describing intensity, meaning or impact? Or does it have deeper implications?

I would consider a breakthrough a type of peak experiance*, however others may have differing definitions...

*

Now, I don't know much about Abraham Maslow, and I don't fully relate his definitions to what I'm talking about when I say "peak experience", though his definition does touch on the definition of peak experience in my eyes...I don't feel a peak experience has to be euphoric, or relating to self-actualization...

My definition of a peak experience is closer to the Sufi definition of fanaa:



So,

What determines a "breakthrough"?

Are there certain factors which would make one more prone to acheiving peak experiance?

Or is this not something that happens because of any external factors or efforts?

And what does it mean to you when you say "I had a breakthrough"?


-eg

House once wrote:



This quote is how I personally think of breakthroughs. They are a subjective experience just like all psychedelic ones anyway, so they are different for everyone. For me, a breakthrough is usually breaking through what I have experienced before, moving to a higher and/or more powerful level of hyperspace.

The term "breakthrough" has eluded me for quite some time too.

It seems to be defined differently by many. My personal thoughts are that "breakthrough" is what occurs when based on several factors.

1. Full ego death

2.complete dissolution or disconnection from the consensus reality

as mentioned, the house quote seems to hold true, once one reaches a "breakthrough" there are infinite possibilities & each new experience holds the potential for unfolding yet deeper levels of truth & higher "reality".

Judging by the quote from shulgin in your other thread, i would consider everything sub-breakthrough up until the 100mg dose, which seems like massive overkill for propperly vaped DMT, but not for oral.

I've always kinda assumed, based on my own experiences that I would label as "breakthrough" experiences, that when we have been using the word on this forum, it was meant to refer to the state of ego death, basically what is described in the fanaa definition, if I'm reading it right. It's hard to pin down a satisfactory definition, as it is by nature an experience that is ineffable. If "you" were present to experience it then you didn't get it. It's a complete loss of individual identity, total ego dissolution, merging into something eternal, no memory of being a human, having a body, having smoked DMT, no thought, no end or beginning, just awareness, just infinity. These descriptions obviously don't get anywhere close to doing justice to a description of the state, but I hope you can understand what I'm getting at. Based on the replies so far I'd suggest we are all pointing our fingers at the same moon, if in our own little inarticulate ways.

Reading through the official definitions of breakthrough, I find them moar in line with that wonderful quote from hut. I kinda like that definition a little better, it doesn't pin it down to a single experience or state. It illustrates it as an ongoing process, as reaching some level of success or new understanding after facing resistance or inability to achieve growth. Something more along the lines of a breakthrough in scientific research or a psychotherapeutic breakthrough in a treatment resistant patient.

I think the latter definition is a better one to use, particularly with people that are new to these experiences and enthusiastic about reaching this mythical "breakthrough" state. It lays it out as more of a path than a goal. I dare say, we could well replace the word "breakthrough" with "enlightenment" here.

Thanks for bringing this up EG, this is something I've been pondering for a while. Perhaps it's time we create clear distinctions and definitions for these murky intertwined descriptors like breakthrough, ego death, peak experience, psychedelia, plus four (++++) [Shulgin], level 5 [Leary], ecstasis, satori, trance, etc...

What we intend "breakthrough" to mean will be irrelevant until there are more words for different stages.

The beginner will define any of the first "WTF" experiences as breakthroughs, because they are often literally "breaking through" reality.

I generally experience a full alternate reality, and usually spend my time there not able to relate to this reality and for the peak of it having no sense of self. But there are many stages in my experience to getting there and all of them sort of require a word which gives them the respect due to them.

I recall a number of threads where people have tried to quantize the experience into steps, but perhaps we should be happy with "breakthrough" meaning the person is seeing those things outside of this consensus reality, and leave "ego death" to describe the deeper experience.

These words fail to describe the experience anyway, and the prose of those describing their experiences is far better. "Breakthrough" is in danger of becoming a goal, or a badge which can only make people think they have not achieved something useful, or had a useful insight (as many have felt also when they don't see crazy fractal patterns).

Ego death is great for making you realise you are not the ego, but the ego is fairly useful when a God says you can ask it a question, damn I wish my ego was around at that point.

I am becoming more convinced that we (read everyone, not just the nexus) experience "hyperspace" all the time, and that all DMT does is throw us into the OBE needed to have our consciousness focus there, by numbing our bodies and amplifying our reception of our inner senses to supersede the outer (and I think this may result in a distortion that gives some of us fractalisation of those inner senses). You don't so much go there as start to notice it more than our material world.

So my vote is that experience is an analogue scale and of course subjective. Let it be what ever people think it is which I think is generally the "WTF is that?" moment. Breakthrough is not the peak of the experience, there is always more...

All the responses have been amazing, very well thought.

This was going to be a thread where I was going to sit back and just listen (read) what peoples thoughts were. This was an attempt to better understand these types of states, and more importantly to understand what they mean to others.

I do have some other ideas/opinions in this area, but I'm going to hold off for now, this was a case where I really did want to hear others thoughts, so I'll leave it to that.

I truly appreciate the responses, thank you.

-eg

Hey all,

For me, there are two distinctive types of a breakthrough. First breakthrough type is when you see faces, entities, the spirit world, but do not get completely immersed in it. The fractals are moving and morphing at a speed ranging from very sloooow to extremely fast, but no matter what pace, there is always some motion and unfolding going on.

The second type of a breakthrough is qualitatively different from the first type. The motion, unfolding, morphing stops completely - there is not even the slightest of motion present on this level. All fractals kind of freeze and solidify. And then there is this merging of me and the hyperspace - I and it become one single unit. I guess you can call it an ego death for everything that defines me (=thinking process and feelings) cease to exist the moment I fully merge with the hyperspace.

The most interesting part of the second type of breakthrough are the entities. Once everything stops moving and I merge with the hyperspace, countless distinctive entities can be observed. I can communicate with any of them (or so it appears since I obviously didn't try to talk to all of them), but the most communication happens between me and my spirit guide. This is a feminine entity which has characteristics of a guardian angel, conscience, mother, royalty, deity, but is neither of them. She doesn't really care how I call her anyway. But her purpose with me is more clear: she explains and helps me to interpret the stuff I see. Also, I can address my questions to her and she replies.

So, going back to the original question in the OP, when I say "I had a breakthrough" I mean that I experienced three things: full immersion in hyperspace (including ego death, even though I don't like the term for it's not a real death of the ego, but more of a temporal shut down), stop of any fractal movement and appearance of spirits (and particularly my spirit guide).

Down the thread I have seen a few interesting things being posted I would like to comment on:

and


Even though the learning never stops and every new trip can bring new insights, the actual breakthrough experience does definitely have an end - it does not keep unfolding for ever. This was in fact one of my quests while doing DMT - to reach the ultimate, the "real" breakthrough. The biggest problem was that once I become immersed into hyperspace and lose my ego, all of my questions and memories disappear too. But I found a way to circumvent this problem.

The way around I found was the intention. If intention is clear, well formed and genuine, it will keep you going even if "you" doesn't even exist anymore. The exact mechanism of how intention works is beyond my comprehension, but I managed to get an answer to my ultimate breakthrough question!

I was having a particularly good DMT trip - a breakthrough (see my definition of a breakthrough above), but I kept pushing forward (if there is such a thing in hyperspace). I didn't know what, how and why I was doing what I was doing, for I forgot about everything, but my intention (subconsciously) kept driving me further. Further and further beyond the bliss, beyond the spirits, beyond the spirit world...

And then I reached it! It was a dark, impenetrable void. It was more dark than the darkest night, and more empty than vacuum - an absolute nothingness. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't even think of a way how to enter that void, that darkness. Then my spirit guide appeared and explained to me that this is the end, the end of a breakthrough experience. There is no more breakthrough beyond this point and I can't proceed any further while still alive.

So, at the very bottom of the rabbit hole is an absolute cold, dark, void nothingness.

In my experience the end of the breakthrough experience is the melting with the divine oneness/light where all duality disappears (let alone a spirit guide telling me this is the end of a breakthrough(thats not void nothinness!)).

But maybe we dont agree , everybody has his own opinion (arent you the guy who thinks the oneness/light is just an illusion created by an evil hyperspatial conspirancy to lure us into their "sect" ?)

Peace

Well this full immersion into the spirit world (you call it melting with the divine oneness/light) does not need to be the end. Yes, I know, it looks like that ecstatic bliss is all there is and it seems impossible to navigate yourself through it (how can you wish for anything without ego?). But, as I told in my previous post, I found a way to circumvent this through adamant intention - I really wanted to know how deep the rabbit hole goes. I was obsessed by that desire for weeks and even months, and at some point I finally got it. I managed to navigate through the non-duality and see where it ends. In this sense you can indeed call DMT-assisted non-duality an illusion for it is not a real non-duality, but a state that strongly resembles it.


Hehe lol where did I said such a thing? I am definitely not a conspiracy theory kind of guy. I do believe, however, that oneness with spirit world (as reachable with DMT) is not the same as oneness with God. Getting DMT-assisted merging with the spirit world can be useful (I benefited greatly from it), but do not mistake it for an actual communion with God. DMT hyperspace and breakthrough is not all there is.

As for entities - I have indeed my own not-so-good opinion about them. I wouldn't trust any of them, even not your own spirit guide - a very skilled liar. Why? Because I believe them to be demons and one should not be friends with demons, even if they look like cool guys. There is nothing conspiratorial about their behavior though - you open up yourself with DMT, and they spring into the opportunity to lure you into their domain.

This is not exactly the same...(imo you need to get immersed into the spirit world to melt with the divine oneness/light/god , but its not the same)



LOL, excuse me , I confused you with someone else , now i see you are the "enities are all bad demons" guy who found his peace with cristanity (no offence , really).
I guess we both have conflicting perspectives based on our own experiences, lets leave it at that.

To the topic of the thread !

peace

I definitely wouldn’t call breaking through a peak experience at all - this is confusing two different things. They are entirely different, peak experience is as your definition describes it and is common with other psychedelics. Though I don’t think you can have a peak experience on DMT without breaking through.

For me, breakthrough is experienced as a very physical weight, rushing or being pulled through.

As for what it is I experience it as the removal of any separation from the experience ie. I’m no longer having the experience I *am* the experience. Additionally, the mind get overwhelmed and cannot really direct the experience in any way at all - the substance has totally taken over.

Breakthrough is very much a ‘you know it when you’ve done it’ thing.

After reflecting about this Thread, i find it interesting how many opinions we have here.

I was under the impression (till now ) that when we talk abot a breakthrough , most people talk about an experience induced by a large enough dose of DMT (or other tryptamines) characterized by a loss of all sensory conection to the material world while being in another dimension/plane of existence/place/...

From there on the experience can take a lot of different directions , including the peak experience / merging with the one dreamer042 explained so wonderfully here:

This. Very much so!

This is purely my 2 cents worth... We don't have linguistic convention for these kind of things, so all anyone can give is an opinion when it comes to these matters, IMO.

Altogether, I agree with the OP's own definition of a "Peak Experience, but would differ when using the word "Breakthrough". In fact, I wouldn't put a "breakthrough experience" and a "peak experience" on the same plane at all, personally...

For me, a "breakthrough experience" is one in which I am out of body, be it whether I am experiencing my surroundings (on whatever plane) from an "astral" or "ethereal" perspective without the experience of bodily awareness, or experiencing an alternate reality in which I may seem to have a body, but the reality which confronts me is one other than this terrestrial existence (in which my body most often remains still and at rest).
This realm is a HUGE place and seems entirely endless, and the spectrum of phenomena in this arena is staggeringly broad and diverse. There seems to be an element of consistency or narrative, but at the same time much of it is a "dice roll" when it comes to what might happen.
This is really what I would call a moderate effective dose; While it is perhaps the ideal place ime to engage in exploration, spiritual practice or healing... It's not at all what I would call a strong dose, and not a "peak" experience as the word would imply in this scenario.

What I would term a "peak experience" similar to the OP's own personal interpretation, and is a place where the concept of "how far one can go" becomes entirely meaningless (along with any other); Eternity, and a little more..
I don't particular see the need to put communal effort into throwing words at anything beyond this point, really, if only in consideration of the experience of those who would actually need to use them, and whether it's really a necessity.

I see a lot of difference of opinion in this thread, and certainly don't mean to challenge anyone's own interpretation. Rather, I mean to point out what I see as a difference in meaning between those who use the words, or even between instances of its use by the same speaker.

Should we, in fact, be picking nits and creating new, commonly agreed-upon words to further differentiate our experience? It seems at first to be cumbersome and precocious... But perhaps it could be helpful, or even necessary under some circumstances.

IMO, the OP's own definition of a "peak experience" seems to be a great place to do this. Given, that's only one single interpretation.. But considering the many others available from contemporary philosophy, cultural tradition and historical record, my pagan sensibilities find it to be a relatively fine example... After all, we should all be mentally flexible enough to draw connections according to our own belief systems.

---

Many here seem to share my own definition of "breakthrough", while others have a definition that more closely describes what the OP would term a "Peak Experience". Still many others seem to have a dual-definition that regards both experiences under the same name.... But what's overwhelmingly clear is that these two separate benchmarks do seem to be ones that we can mutually agree upon the existence of... And that's something.

Should we perhaps try to differentiate ourselves in our speech and writing to more clearly describe what we mean when we say "Breakthrough", and should we be making an effort to differentiate this from states of non-duality and agree upon a common verbiage for this phenomenon, if necessary??

P.S... Please pardon my typos and bad grammar. It's Saturday and I'm super stoney.

A breaktrhough means you fully entered another dimension, where you are there is no physical contact with your body anymore. You feel like you are in a real reality with or without your body with full consciousness.

Trust me, you know when you have a breakthrough, when it happens. You gotta smoke lot's and fast to have a breakthrough, and hold the smoke as long as possible.

Q: Is the ultimate truth the same as "void"?

A: The term "void" has created much confusion and has misled people throughout the centuries. It implies nothingness, or nonexistence, which is not a possibility in the Real. There is no opposite to God. Only Truth has actual existence. What is more commonly meant by the term "void" is absence of form, absence of substance, or nonduality. It is often confused with nonexistence. To confuse the Ultimate Allness with nothingness/void is to fall victim to the falsity of trying to prove that nonexistence actually exists.

David Hawkins