You know when your parents tell you that "drugs are bad" and that you shouldn't do them? Even though they most likely have endeavored on their own journey with drugs, whether that be weed, stimulants, psychedelics... the mix. Well what did you do? You still took the drugs, because you had to experience the reality for yourself to come to your own conclusions of right and wrong. But your parents came to their own conclusion of drug use before you, through their own experiences, and may have felt a need to push their ideologies on you, believing this to be the right thing to do.

Were you not once a beginner? Did you not once blindly and ignorantly enter the world of psychedelics with little knowledge and understanding of what it was you were getting yourself into?

All of us have to learn for ourselves. Some of us have learnt the lessons that people have yet to learn, but our telling them only gives them two options, blindly follow my order, or rebel and go find out for yourself. To learn, to become filled with knowledge and wisdom, it is a humans journey to do reality testing, in order to discover their own truth of what works for them, and what does not.

Maybe the best thing for us to do, is not imply that people should not endeavour on such journeys, but rather, to support them in their inquisitive nature of exploration, and through our own awareness and understanding, provide the foundations in which they can grow. So to speak, we can help tend to the soil in which they may plant the seeds to bloom into flowers.

Yes, we were all once beginners... But I learned a lot more a lot faster when I started listening to and thinking about advice from other more experienced people.

I have also had times in my life where I benefited from someone else calling me out on my shit. Sometimes they saved me from a lot of trouble.

And I know people who seriously traumatized themselves with psychedelics. It isnt all roses and rainbows out there - some people can get hurt. Of course they might not listen to your advice - but they also might! I think it is at least worth sharing your perspective with them in case they might be open minded enough to consider it.

There are more then just 2 options then to follow blindly or rebel... You can consider and think critically and look into things to make educated decisions. Just because you listen to someone and hear their wisdom does not mean you are following them blindly - it is only following blindly when you listen without considering the details on your own.

The world isnt only black and white, and we can all benefit from the experiences and wisdom of others if we want to.

Can you please elaborate more on that?

What is it that causes the PTSD? Horror usually causes it but DMT is not horrifying is it? Is it just that when the experience goes beyond the capacity to intergrate that it causes anxiety?

What are the specific symptoms of this PTSD? I think I am suffering from this, having weird illogical dejavu like symptoms like thinking in tongues or something, things kinda feel unreal... and that was from a sub-breakthrough dose for christ sake! never abused dmt, had the utmost respect for it although was disappointed that it didn't enhance emotion but was surpised how it enhanced my awareness... as soon as I took it to the next level, everything just crashed and I have been in terror of it ever since.

i have found DMT to be the most horrifying thing ive ever experienced. by a country mile and then some.

have you only had limited low dose explorations? if so then it is understandable that you are unaware what lies in the depths, its not all colours and dancing mice, the depths can be horrifying on a scale that is beyond comprehension.

Wow, I didn't expect that. How can such incomprehensible things be so horrifying? I thought it would be the epitome of confusion but not tragedy. Horror for me is like shame and torture mutated in to one unstopable beast that strips all hope... Can you explain what this horror is in any more definable language?

dont get me wrong, i LOVE DMT, its the most beautiful thing i have ever encountered, a peak experience that is seemingly unshakeable from its mountain top.

however.

every glorious thing has its dark sibling. you can be stripped of everything that you are, all knowledge of what happened to your human form is gone and what is left can be tortured by things that you cant imagine, you can have your soul torn to pieces, you can be incarnated into things that are the torture toys of beings, or a force, beyond human comprehension, its like an ant trying to work out whats happening when a kid gets busy with a magnifying glass on a sunny day. this torture and abuse can seemingly last forever.

It can even be horrifying when you have a good experience. I was once shown the answer to all my questions and was shown what i really am, during the experience it was not horrific. when i came back to consensus reality i was seriously freaked out and plunged into a serious existential crisis for more than a few months. having your reality maps enormously altered is very disconcerting to say the least, and horrifying would not be to strong of an expression of this experience.

now go get that monster GVG hit held for 20 secs

For a great many of my experiences I did not have a guide nor much advice to go on save the bits I could scrounge on dial-up internet in my youth. Fortunately I had mostly positive experiences, but I feel that I was lucky, very lucky. Many times I have teased the edge whether intentionally or not and came back stronger. I have not experienced to unimaginable Lovecraftian horrors, ego-death or others that many Nexians have. I know that I take that risk the times that I try to go deeper or attempt a break-through.

I know now that if I should embark to share this world with someone, I need to see it through with them to a certain extent. I'm not going to act as a psychedelic parent but I'll help them until they are set.

Ayahuasca is different then DMT. Way more powerful. So already you and I are talking about 2 different things.

DMT can be horrifying for some - especially if done in the wrong setting with a high dosage. But Ayahuasca has more potential to cause trauma because it can be scarier and lasts much longer and also has more force. Ayahuasca can be very overpowering for some people or at large doses.

You know you could always google symptoms for PTSD right? Basically PTSD is something that lasts for months or longer, impacts your life and ability to function and sometimes can include things like flashbacks, panic attacks, deep rooted fears, nightmares, anxiety ect.... For some people it can really take over their whole life and make it difficult or near impossible to do anything because they get frozen with fear.

Are you making a distinction between vaped DMT and oral DMT, or making reference to other known and unknown chemicals that may be in ayahuasca broths?

Ayahuasca doesnt even always have DMT. Many people drink just the vine and the vine is visionary on its own. Admixtures like chacruna are common, but not universal or necessary. Oldest way of drinking the medicine is with the vine only and many tribes still drink it that way today.

Also - effects of Ayahuasca are totally different from the effects of vaped/smoked DMT. Very very different. The only way I can see someone thinking that Ayahuasca is just oral DMT is if they have never tried it before, because really the two experiences have little in common.

I completely agree. Although I am still a novice with DMT and Ayahuasca. I find the two incomparable.

Travsha, do you think there is enough to say about vine-only to open a separate dedicated thread about it, like in Other-Entheogens/Harmalas section? I think you are the right person when it comes to that. I know ayahuasca forum has some vine only threads/post, but is some loose info, not really a thorough standard work I'm looking for. I realize it's just drink-and-see but somewhere I suspect you have the knowledge to frame the subject more extensively.

I may be able to start something like that.... I mostly drink with admixtures and think others are more knowledgeable on the subject, but I guess they can add more in the comments!

edit: posted here: https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&m=709634&#post709634

This point is true, and my mistake in not taking it into consideration, thanks bro

i absolutely have PTSD.
hallucinogens can be horrifying sometimes,
but to me its just ambient with more pizazz and color.

i was trained to remain calm when horrified.
and ,its key to my job to be that way.

( part of the reason i suspect i was banned from chat,
is that my horror tolerance is too high.
i can see their point )

i would not recommend that people play the way i do though.
thru either adventure OR hallucinogens OR both.

feeding hallucinogens to individuals or groups of people with PTSD in isolated areas
can get out of hand........

screen your lab rats well is the lesson here.
people can have underlying PTSD , and appear pretty normal mostly.
a plus 3 dose can suddenly flush them out with surprises........

people think im nuts cuz i have a metal detector wand and shake down visitors.
im not nuts, im experienced.

Thanks for clarifying that, because I have done neither oral DMT nor Ayahuasca, so I'm trying to understand this from the "outside" as it were.

Then why do this? If this is so horrific and has such a potential to go south then why risk it? I'd rather just stay with my ordinary consciousness than risk being put in a mental institution because of derealization/depersonalization and PTST/HPPD. FUCK THAT!

Yeah thanks, I wasn't asking the general symptoms of PTSTD but more specifically the symptoms of PTSD from DMT and why it occurs?

It just seem strange to me that the mind would go in to shock from something like that. What is it about the DMT experience that can throw people in to a frenzy? Perhaps it is as 3rdI says that "having your reality maps enormously altered is very disconcerting" but beautiful visuals within divine contact from a multitude of different intelligences in a portal to another realm doesn't sound like the sort of thing to send someone in to shock, fear and anxiety. People getting their friends brains blown up in front of them or their loved ones tortured sounds more likely to induce fear than just strange feelings from a chemical. Is it a problem with the brains ability to handle multiple sources of information about reality and so could be described as an "intergration problem"?

if you wanna get to the top of the mountain you've gotta wonder through the valleys.

I feel im a better version of myself now, if getting to where i am meant i had to put up with some temporary discomfort then thats a trade off im willing to make.

Im very mentally/emotionally stable so i am good at dealing with this type of thing. I have found that as long as you dont identify with the voice inside your head then it is much easier to deal with it when it starts to spin you unpalatable yarns about your existence.

i read your other posts and it seems that DMT had quite a negative/strong effect on you after your introduction, and i understand that you're not overly comfitable with the results, maybe you are looking at the situation the wrong way, maybe it isnt a problem but an opertunity in learning to deal with existential problems.


this is a very candy coated version of a breakthrough. the reason your logical thinking about the experience seems sound is because you havnt been there, the experience being described is very very different to it actually happening to you.
The difference between someone telling you you will meet an autonomous hyper intelligent being is not even close to the realisation that happens when your entire reality get torn to pieces, then you think your dead and loose all semblance of self and then this being materialises infront of you, stares directly into your eyes and telepathically disects every aspect of your true nature, that shits freaky beyond comprehension.

there is a reason that we say DMT is not for everyone, its not elitist, its true, but many people dont want to hear it.

i wish you well Emptiness, all your troubles will hopefully pass if you address them correctly.

PTSD from psychedelics is the same as PTSD from other sources. PTSD is a reaction to fear and trauma - if something can scare someone enough or cause them emotional trauma, then it can potentially cause them PTSD.

I think this could be more likely with Ayahuasca then DMT - Ayahuasca is much more intense, real, and longer lasting.... I dont know anyone who got this just from DMT but I met a few with PTSD from bad Ayahuasca experiences.

In some cases they were seeing horrific images, remembering horrible things from their past, trying to repress the difficult emotions coming up, feeling super disoriented and confused, feeling out of control, losing touch with themselves and worried they might always feel like this now, or maybe feeling judged or threatened by someone else in their ceremony..... Those types of things can snow-ball and gain momentum pretty quick if things are intense and get too out of hand. Also - when in an altered state your mind is sensitive and ultra-suggestive so it can be easy to program - either you can start to believe your own fears and judgement or others could push those on you and you integrate them more in that suggestible state of mind.

Imagine someone freaking out and screaming for help mid ceremony and then the facilitator forcible kicks them out roughing them up a bit (I have heard of this happening). Or being in that altered state with someone who pushes themselves onto you sexually and you are too disoriented to figure out how to stop them or make a good decision. Or maybe you just freak out and start screaming and flailing and thinking horrible painful things about yourself that you deeply believe in that suggestible state. Maybe you even get up and start running around in public trying to flee something or someone that is scaring you - and feeling unsafe in public with all those people looking at you like you are crazy. Maybe you are convinced in your visions that you are infested with demons eating you alive. Or maybe your ceremony brings back the memory of a family member raping you.

I have talked to people who experienced all those things in ceremony.... And if you are already depressed or have anxiety and you are searching for healing - but end up in that dark space without any support.... That can be real scary for some people.