how many people are in your church?

do you hold weekly/monthly meetings?

im curious about sacramental structure, is this in groups? one on one sessions? Are you the only facilitator?

After you crack peoples heads open, what do you do to help them pick up their brains off the cosmic walls and live their life?

Another comment on "divine eyes"

The brain takes in something like 12 billion signals per second, all of which (except for smell) enter the brain via the thalamus, now, the thalamus filters out the majority of these signals and sends the essential signals to the cortex regions of the brain, the cortex is where your emotional and intellectual processing occurs, all of your higher processing, now, when you take an entheogen like psilocin, DMT, mescaline, etc..it "turns-off" the thalamus's filters, so rather than only getting a fraction of the signals around you, your getting them all.

...your actually perceiving more of reality when on entheogens.


...now, if you were left in this highly receptive state all the time you would never be able to get anything done, it would be difficult just to obtain food and shelter or reproduce....however there are benefits of entering these highly receptive states for a period of time and then returning...and for practicing spirituality it's these highly receptive states which are key.

-eg

Thank you! These are productive questions.

·There are between 12-25 people in the church

·The meetings are weekly, though the ceremonies generally connect to lunar phases (I.e. ayahuasca on full moons, etc...)

·I'm not clear on what you mean by sacramental structure, but I'll try to answer based on what I think you mean:

·In The DMT initiation only the person being initiated takes the DMT, however they can have who ever they choose present, the DMT is smoked out of a ceremonial pipe (which is another reason for the high dose, it's not an efficient device) mixed with cannabis. The person being initiated generally spends weeks or months in preperation, which is independent, though they have the whole church as a resource for support, advice, etc...

Ayahuasca is taken in traditional fashion, and is also taken in modified fashion in groups, it's brewed as a group or by a few church members, and is consumed outdoors if available (in the mountains) around a fire or indoors around a simulated fire, sometimes there will be a shaman guiding the session, or there will be a specific goal, other times everybody guides the session as a group.

The cimora (mescaline cacti brews) is consumed in fashion derived from south American cimora (San Pedro) ceremonies as well as native American peyote ceremonies.

A good deal of the group.work is traditional though the majority of the work is still done as an individual.

After a person's "head has been broken open" we are there for support, there to help with processing and interpretation. All in all its an individual path, the church just provides access to a community of people who have been there before and are still taking a similar path.


-eg

In entheogenic shamanism The teacher/student mode and hierarchical attitudes are only in place when an apprentice is training to be a shaman, this has little to do with the actual function of the shaman, it only applies to the person in the village who is learning the trade to eventually take that shamans place or become a shaman in other areas.

The shamans function is healing, the shaman is basically a doctor, people seek out the shaman when the are sick, or to have curses removed, or to cure some psychological or metaphysical ailment. The shaman is a healer, he is nit doing these things to advance a religious agenda or for personal exploration, he shamanizes to heal.

The other role the shaman plays is the "go-between", he ventures into spiritual spaces on behalf of his community and wins favor of the gods for his people, he gains spirit guides and and has spirit and animal ally's and helpers. He is also asked to solve social problems, he can see "who stole the chickens" or "who has been cheating on their husband", he also predicts weather and movement of game and he telepathically guides hunting parties.

The shaman plays the role of a whether man, a psychologist, a link between the spiritual world and the physical world which gives him the ability to know of social wrong doings as well as weather patterns and connections to animals, but over all the shaman is a doctor, his primary job is a healer.

I never used Wikipedia to define shamanism, I used it in a previous post to give a definition of the word "entheogen", which was appropriate, wikipedia just happened to give a clear definition of the term that could be quickly accessed for reference. The problem was my definition and this person's definition of the same word were different, so I found a clear an accurate definition to put us both on the same page, though this was not regarding the term "shamanism".

It seems you are confusing "brujos" with "curanderos" ...there are many forms of shamanic practice from all parts of the globe, there's also entheogenic shamanism and non-entheogenic shamanism, Mircea Eliade argued (incorrectly) that entheogenic shamanism was decadent, though Richard Evans schultes clearly showed that non-entheogenic shamans were using dangerous means (stranding yourself in the wildersess, starvation, ordeal poisons, sensory/sleep deprivation, physical mutilation/flageleation, etc..) which were vastly innefective, in an attempt to access what entheogens provide, non-entheogenic shamanism is a last resort, and when a culture has been separated from their source of entheogens for what ever reasons these methods can be employed, but it would be in an attempt to regain abilities lost with the entheogens.


-eg

This doesnt really sound traditional.... Not saying traditional is the only way, but it helps to be accurate when you describe things. Helps to be honest with yourself too.

Ayahuasca traditionally always has a shaman. Usually the shaman is the only one that drinks it and everyone else comes to be sung to. Usually there is no fire. I have never heard of a "traditional" ceremony led by the entire group, and honestly it does not sound very safe.

Cimora is usually San Pedro mixed with datura (toe'. When it doesnt have toe' they usually just call it San Pedro. South American San Pedro ceremonies have a totally different format and structure then North/Central American Peyote ceremonies.

In traditional settings the ceremony always has a shaman, often the shaman is the only one to drink (not always), and the shaman always has extensive training from other elders and shamans.

Not saying you need to work the same exact way, but if your church works differently maybe "shamanic" and "traditional" are not the best descriptive words.

...I may have missed part of what you were trying to say, and yes, when it comes to some of these tribal cultures there's a good deal of sexism, male dominasce, hierarchical power structures, and so on, and most westerners are ignorant to the way a good deal of these cultures actually function....

But keep in mind the shaman lives on the edge of the village, he really is not part of the culture, he is peripheral to it, generally only being called on to divine, to heal, or to gain favor with the spirits (Gods) often times the shaman is hardly a part of the culture which he is connected.

Though you must keep in mind customs can very greatly just from village to village let alone from country to country.

Again, we are not shamans, but we use identical techniques and traditions to access non-physical and after death realms, as well as divine states, group clairvoyance, and as a means of obtaining gnosis regarding spirituality, morality, nature, life, death, and our position in relating to this all as individuals.

Most the cultural norms are aimed at living a happy, positive, and compassionate life, they are means of maintaining good karma and vibrating positivity, peace and love outwards into your enviroment, it's about living a positive, moral and happy life and helping those around you to do the same...

We incorporate the most useful shamanic techniques from a number of traditions, and we disregard anything we would view as counter-productive, negative, or incorrect, such as some of the more negative aspects of some of these cultures that you have mentioned.

-eg

Shamanic is the perfect word I feel, we are using identical techniques and traditions to entheogenic shamanism, just for a different purpose and with a good deal of other influences incorporated .

Pick a specific aspect and I would be happy to elaborate.

When I say the group ceremonies are traditional you only have to look at traditional group ceremonies from across the globe to understand what I mean, the the group.aspects vary a great deal and are carried out in different fashions depending on the goal or occasion..

We incorporate northern native peyote ceremony into south American cimora ceremony (which we do not mix with datura, but still prefer the term to San Pedro, often as the brews contain lophophora williamsii, trichocereus bridgesii, and on some occasions harmine or THC, so San Pedro was not a fitting term as often times our cimora does not contain any trichocereus pachanoi.


I can't imagine trying take these things outside in the dark without a fire, and our teachers from other countries have shown us the basic structure for our group sessions in this manner, so when I say traditional it means literally methods by which (group) consumption has been practiced traditionally with whatever substance it may be.

Look at any traditional entheogenic shamanic ceremony, what we are doing is not all that much different.

-eg

Ayahuasca and San Pedro werent used by shamans across the world - they were used by shamans in one region of South America. Building a fire and playing a drum doesnt make you a shaman.

Generally Ayahuasca is drunk indoors. If San Pedro is used at night it is usually indoors, and if during the day then outdoors at temples or sacred lakes. Traditionally they do not use fires.

Each tradition is different. If you pick and choose from different traditions and then just add your own things then it isnt really traditional anymore. Just explaining this for the sake of accuracy.

If this is really your calling how come you dont get real training like other shamans do?

As I see it, the OP questions were either addressed or forgotten. The current discussion has very little to do with the original question of how to legally start a church and does this doctrine qualify to create a legal church entity.

two important notes for general readership:

1) despite any implications in this thread, religious practice is not a generally strong legal defense against possession or use of illegal substances in the USA. There is a lot of precedent recorded on the forums for this defense failing. Please do not get the idea from this thread that a religious defense will protect you. Talk to a lawyer for legal advice.

2) Please do not get the idea from this thread that dosing 200 mg of dmt as an iniation dose is generally a good idea. Some people feel this way, many do not. It is important to note that there are a lot of people who report with certainty that this dose is psychologically traumatic; it can trigger psychotic episodes in people with latent conditions. For safety and harm reduction sake, please dose low until you have experience or the guidance of someone with experience that you trust.

re: the OP's questions about the legal process of starting a church; there is a lot of information about this online that is a quick google search away. Please do some research before posting questions like "Does the church have to involve Jesus to be seen as a real church?" This is vague (seen by what organization?,) logically simple to answer (any organization that recognizes hinduism as a religeon obviously doesn't have a jesus requirement) and very easily researched on your own. Nexians come from all over the world and they may live in a culture where the answer isn't applicable to you. Please post carefully to keep the discussion meaningful.

If you all want to continue a discussion about engineering intentional communities, the definitions of words like "shamanism" "gnosis" etc, please start a thread on that topic.

The pattern of the OP making absolute statements as an authority and arguing semantics when questioned does not encourage me to keep this thread open. We are all learning here together. Please offer what you have to share humbly and accept what other people have to say.

I have worked with several shamans over the years, and we continue to work with several shamans to this day, from Africa to Australia to Asia and south America, we invite the most skilled in their traditions to teach us. It's an ongoing process, you don't just "learn" shamanism, you live it, and I have been for quite some time....Again we are NOT shamans, a shaman is a healer, and we are not healers, we are students and explorers, we use IDENTICAL techniques and traditions to entheogenic shamanism, but have also incorporated a diverse pantheon of spiritual traditions, techniques and philosophies into a modern shamanic entheogenic practice.

Entheogenic shamanism is global, in places where cimora and yagé are not used psilocybin fungi, peyote, amanita muscaria, DMT preparations, cannabis, ibogaine, salvinorin, kava, etc...are in use, we incorporate techniques and entheogens from traditions across the globe.

Ayahuasca is practiced all across south America, not just in Brazil, or Peru or Columbia, granted it's not across the globe, and I did not say "our ayahuasca and cimora techniques come from across the globe" I said "our shamanic techniques were derived from traditions across the globe"

As far as your claims about San Pedro, I know several accredited individuals that disagree with your notions of "traditional". "The plant remedy - by Travis bodick"(just to name a single example off the top of my head) is a book that describes traditions similar to ours, and also notes the vast diversity in traditional ritual regarding these entheogens, maybe some research would enlightenment you to the many ways these entheogens have and can be used while still remaining in a shamanic and traditional context...when I see methods similar or identical to the methods which I have been taught appearing time after time in anecdotes, books, and historical records, it leads me to believe my teachers were accurate.

I never detailed our ceremonies deep enough for you to be able to derive any sound judgement, all I've told you is we take our entheogens at night, which is traditional, and in groups around a fire where song, dance, and ritual may be involved, I said at times it's guided depending on the occasion or the goal others times not, but overall I said very little, and I do this intentionally.

I said if you could pick something specific I would be glad to elaborate.


You also must keep in mind that we incorporate entheogenic practice a from across the globe and use far more than just yagé and cimora, we incorporate traditions from Asia, Australia, Africa, Pacifie islands, south America, north America, Russia, the middle east and so on...


-eg

This makes sense, and while I'm not one for arguing semantics, I do feel obligated to clarify when I feel I have been misunderstood, I don't see people's objections to entheogenic organizations as being counter productive to the thread, and while initially I was interested in information for gaining legal grounds (which had been looked into several times, I asked about the Jesus bit because if your trying to start a Christian church things become far easier) I feel the resulting conversation was just as acceptable.

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How to start a church from wikihow

1

Start a home spiritual discussion group. Before you attempt to file for non-profit status and make your church official, it's best to establish a somewhat sizable and united fellowship of people with similar beliefs to undergo the process together. Start talking with like-minded people and getting together on a regular basis.
The IRS requires you to have three founding members who are not related by blood or marriage.

2

Define the scope of the church. You can establish a church at varying levels and the better you define your aims for the church, the easier it will be to establish your tax-exempt status. Establishing a ministry, for example, is somewhat different than forming a corporately structured church, housed in its own building. Consider:
Your possible membership. How many do you reasonably expect?
Your location. Where will you worship?
Your commitment. Will this be a part-time job, or a full-time calling?
Your financial aims. Will your church collect funds? How? How much will be necessary?

3
Draft church bylaws and a statement of belief. Why are you starting a church? What core beliefs will govern your ministry? What distinguishes your church in terms of doctrine and creed? These are questions to take up in a statement of belief. Think of this as the "Declaration of Independence" for your church.
To form a religious organization, you need to also establish a series of bylaws by which you'll govern your organization. Think of this as the rulebook for your church's operations. Will you perform weddings and funerals? Under what protocol? What community outreach programs will your church participate in?
Sample outlines of bylaws are available that you can use and modify for your purposes.

4
Assign corporate officers. You'll need corporate officers, a board of directors, and a membership to file for incorporation with the state. Make sure ahead of time you've got willing participants to fulfill the various procedural and accounting roles necessary to make a church run smoothly.[2]
These roles will be different than church staff. You don't necessarily need to think about janitorial and secretarial roles just yet, but make sure you've got some idea of the board of directors, visiting and youth ministry, music, and fundraising. The decision-making players need to be in place before you move forward.

5

Name your church. A commonly overlooked step. Give some thought to naming your church something distinctive, unique, and descriptive of your niche in the ministry. Also make sure you're not repeating a commonly-used name.

http://m.wikihow.com/Start-a-Church

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That's all you need to know while starting a church, get a layer and follow these steps, though all the "start up help sites" seem to only want to aide Christian churches.

We have already began to enter this process, and further discussion seems unnecessary, though I was interested in hearing people's reactions when it comes to such ideas, and while there may have been some argument, I feel I was obtaining a decent view of people's actual reactions to these ideas, as long as it was on the topic of "entheogenic church" I was interested in hearing others thoughts, though if you feel the need to close the thread for whatever reason that's fine as well.

-eg

Please keep in mind that I was only clarifying my position, which was challenged several times, and I feel I've been nothing but respectful and polite, two principles for which I rarely see here when others are speaking to me, but which I show others regardless.

Here's an example:

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If you could point out any untrue statements I made as "facts" I would gladly address them.

honestly the only legitimate objection I have seen involves the dose of the initiation, which I could see people having an issue with, but at the same time you assumed that we are giving this dose to people who have never taken DMT or other entheogens (everybody in the church is either very close friends or family, we do not welcome folks off the street or folks that we do not know ) and as if these people did not have the week's or months preparation leading up to the experience, there are risks, nobody ever said there weren't, I Did not fail to stress that this is something serious, and not to be taken lightly.


-eg

I could easily find truth and falsehood in any statement. In fact no statement is inherently true or not, but I, as the reader and interpreter, can find truth or falsehood or both in it - the issue is not about making a statement that isn't true and being corrected. Engaging on the level of who's statement or fact is "true" or "false" just leads to an intellectual war for domination by one persons ego or another. The issue I see is that entheogenic-gnosis is making statements as being absolutely true, and when other people express how that statement is not true to them, a lengthy argument about semantics ensues. Just let it be as true as someone else finds it to them. This is what I mean when I say "offer what you have to share humbly and accept what other people have to say." I do not consider entheogenic-gnosis to be the only poster getting into this dynamic, but this thread stuck out to me as being saturated with it and eg being at the center, so here I am commenting on it.

Addressing the example you quoted, which I think addresses a theme in this thread: jamie's comment about the associations of the word "gnosis" with a specific ideology and how he personally would use a different word if he did not want to invoke that existing ideology does not seem particularly rude or disrespectful to me. I can see how it would be hard to have a conversation if this was interpreted as an attack that warrants a defensive explanation. Trying to control how someone else understands your words will not only result in frustration but a lot of noisy circular posts filling up the forum. This forum has space for personalities and social digressions etc but please try to keep the concentration and quality of the content high. Maybe there is a more engaging and satisfying and productive way to respond to this kind of comment?

Hey EG !
I actually liked your concepts from the the beginning , but especialy after you made some points clear!

- the 200mg initiation
I also had an tryptamine initiation with a similar dose (more than 10g mushrooms), so i abselutely know where you are comming from.
And you said you smoke with a ritual pipe , so i asume that the final dose consumed will be about 50-100 mg due to unefficent smoking techniqe and remaining DMT in the pipe.
- you also made clear that nobody has to smoke weed everyday or stop eating meat (but thats this is the cultural norm). Rastafari with Ital food or saddhus anybody ? bumbum

The time I made the post above (regarding Vegetarianism) i just was on a shedule and wanted to spread some good vibes.

Again, i like your concepts ! (mine would be similar)
I dont like churches , but If a church , i guess it would be yours (but i am from the other side of the pond anyway...)

love