That's right! You should NOT smoke Salvia divinorum!

When the traditional shamans learned that Salvia divinorum was smoked they were appalled! They said that this would make the spirit of Salvia very unhappy!

Some people actually speculate that the TRUE active ingredient in Salvia divinorum breaks down into Salvinorin A & B when the plant is dried, therefore most people who have used Salvia divinorum in the Western World have not had a "true" Salvia divinorum experience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brEvQskNgjE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnJNPGsWMig&feature=related





So you should NOT smoke Salvia divinorum, but you SHOULD chew the fresh leafs from a live plant as a quid! This the proper and responsible way to use this powerful entheogen! Respect the plant by growing it, and using it in a traditional, proven manner.

"This the proper and responsible way to use this powerful entheogen! Respect the plant by growing it, and using it in a traditional, proven manner."


I have had completely wonderful and enlightening journeys smoking my homegrown leaves..I dont find it any less proper or responsible...maybe the mazatecs just didn't get that you had to hold it in for so long when smoked to get a full effect..

Just becasue someone else says do this..doesn't mean I just do it. I have my ways, they have they're ways. I like my way and they're way..both are good..different approaches for differnt tasks I guess..

I quid fresh leaves and smoke dried leaves..all from my plants that I grow myself and love...she has no problem with it..I think if she did she would have told me so when I visit her.

I also haven't really noticed much of a difference yet between the 2 methods other than the fact that quids last longer so I have more time to work with it.. with quids there is more time for the euphoria to build up and enjoy it as a pleasnat experience..

No natives extract and smoke chaliponga, chakruna, or mimosa either..does that make smoking spice less "proper and responsiple"???

I do think that there is great benifit in quidding compared to smoking if you are conducting a healing circle or something along those lines..but still this stuff is all subjective..based on personal experience..and in my experience smoking salvia in wonderful..and she seems to love it most of the time when I do..

The real thing I dont like about all these extracts floating aorund on the market is that stupid people get ahold of them and it makes it really easy to show great disrespect for the plant by dosing in horrible places, surrounded by retards filming they're freinds getting as fucked up as they can so they can post it on you tube and laugh at them after. ..That I find disrespectful and completely irresponsiple..

BTW..that kathlene harrison video is good..I agree with her but not completely..I share her concerns but I dont think that all you get when you smoke salvia is the weird experiences she explained. I posted it in another salvia thread I started a few weeks ago on traditional salvia ceremonies I think.

I have spoken to people who quidded and had those same strange experiences of merging with they're tv etc.. I have taken salvia hundreds of times..and what I have found, smoked or quidded, is that set and setting are key..silent darkness is the way I go now..no matter the method. If there is no pointless distractions to merge with than you wont merge with pointless distractions.

Coatl..BTW..what is you're adverage dose for quidding?? Some people talkabotu using like 30 pais of leaves and whatnot..that seems like a huge ammount..I usually just quid a few pairs of large hand sized leaves...but i dont really breakthrough fully..just a light visionary/euphoric state..I can go deep if I lay still in the dark but not in the way I can when I smoke..

Do you fully breakthrough when you quid or get a mid-level sort of trip?

Good response Fractal. Both of them. It's clear to me that you have the utmost respect for the plant.

I have two questions. What the hell is quiding?

And I bought some salvia....40x six or so months ago and I tried smoking it three or four different times but this was when I was still using and I was on suboxone at the time. The following is just a little bit about the drug so you understand what happened
Suboxone is a combination of Buprenorphine and Naloxone and is administered sublingualy. The Naloxone is inactive orally and isn't relevant to what I'm talking about.
The Buprenorphine is a partial agonist at the mu opioid receptor and a full antagonist at the kappa receptor. It has very high affinity and low activity at the mu receptor and will displace morphine, methadone, and other opioid full agonists from the receptor.

I say all this because little did I know at the time but Salvia works on a persons opioid receptors. Specifically it is thought to primarily work on the Kappa site. Being that suboxone is a full antagonist I never experienced any effects even after taking eight very large hits one night. I originally ordered the Salvia because of a friend who was singing it's praises. He an I were baffled as to why I wasn't feeling anything other than an increase in body temperature after eight large hits. Since getting clean I have tried it once and didn't quite like the effects. I was obliterated and didn't enjoy the experience whatsoever. So here is the second question. My buddy has asked if he can have the leftovers which is upwards of a gram that I have left.
I don't know if I feel comfortable giving it to him because I know that he doesn't respect it whatsoever. He was using it in places that he shouldn't have and with people he shouldn't have. Not to mention he was smoking it while he was drunk most of the time. He was also sharing it with everyone he ran into not stopping to think if this is someone who maybe shouldn't be smoking it and one person did have a bad bad bad experience with it. He even found himself running through his neighborhood at 2 am laughing loudly and maniacly and talking to himself.
Do you think I should just flush the stuff or just keep it in my collection of herbs for the off chance that someone in my presence may enjoy it in the right way? What do you think?
I don't mean to hijack your thread either but you did bring up the issue of respecting the plant.

Good questions...Salvia is a very very very strange psycheldic..very differnt from anything else. I can understand why you didn't enjoy it..salvinorin A has secondary effects through the kappa opiod agonsim effects where it somehow exerts an antagonistic effect on seratonin and dopamine receptors...which is what casues most negative feelings I think..

Anyway...I wouldnt give it to you're freind if I was you...if he gets drunk and smokes it and ends up runing around wildly not realizing what's going on that could get EXTREMELY dangerous. Not a good situation. I once smoked around a campfire at night time rigth after I had smoked DMT..and i overshot a bit and while i had an awesome trip..I came to like 15 feet from where I smoked crawling up the river bank with my legs submerged! I was fine and it wasn't deep or anything and had 2 sitters with me but you get my point..

You're freind honestly doesnt sound mature enough for the expereince that salviahas the ablitiy of providing...they could run out into a freeway and get run over...runoff into someones yard and get the cops called on them etc..Some people are what they call "runners"(meaning they try to run from the salvia trip basically, very literally)..not good if also drunk and disreguarding set and setting.

..not to mention giving it to other random people without concideration..that just shows disrespect for the safety and welfare of others..salvia is not a drug to get high on..I dont even know how people really enjoy using it that way..I mean I enjoy my experiences, and I certainly get something out of it..but I have had my fair share of complete and utter fear filled ego death reality shattering experiences as well..not something I would really do for fun.

about quidding..a quid is a rolled up sort of cigar of usually fresh salvia leaves that is places at the back of the mouth and slowly chewed on for a sublingual expereince. That is how the mazatecs take it traditionally in they're ceremonies..

All the best..

I'm not saying it's wrong to smoke Salvia divinorum, I'm just saying that most of the people who claim that they don't like Salvia divinorum have never done it the "right" way, they have only smoked it which has left them with a bad impression.

I'd like people to learn that Salvia divinorum is a powerful and wonderful teacher if she is used in the correct manner!

Tell us about some of your personal experiences with the two ways of taking Salvia & the differences you noticed between them & why you prefer the oral version.

I prefer a Quid too, but smoking it has it's benefits as well.
Like for example, not having a sandwich sized load of super bitter leaves filling my entire mouth, creating a flood of saliva that turns into a disgusting green soupy mess & needs to be held there for 15-30 minutes. (ever had green stained teeth for a day?)


That is only in your opinion!! Not in universal fact.
Remember that.

WS

old school.
Look at this beautiful changuar....I mean wow look now it's a changuana...incredible!
smoking is wonderful.
old school monkeys spittin' green dreams, I see.
so you choose to rotate the elements
when none of it is true, not a thing, not even you!
not even my first entheogenic experience, something I'll never Do again
s m o k e d s a l v i a (shriek!)
I'm not her spokesperson, her student, her innocent bystander, her friend, or anything.
Got legs so long yes they are highways and they stretch to the sun.
There are words flying down them. To the sun, and from the sun.

I am one of those people.

I've smoked salvia extracts before from sage wisdom, and i did not get anything insightful or fullfilling out of the experience. This was enhanced leaf that i smoked through a bong.

The way i would describe the experience was like an organic version of nitrous oxide w/ a heavy body load and thats it. I was very dissappointed and decided not to work with the plant anymore.

Upon reading this thread and doing more research on sagewisdom.com and listening to a podcast interview w/ daniel siebert. I believe i would like to give this entheogen another chance.

Reading the mazatecs use of it as a quid.....it seems to be the most promising method for me,because i would be able to spend more time in this realm.

I would really like to experiment with the quid method, and i read for a propper dosage you would need atleast 12 -15 leaves rolled up into a cigar shape and just chew on it as long as possible and then eat the rest of it.

My question is.... being that i never read anyone quidding with dried leaf, is it possible to quid with dried leaf or is it just a waste of leaf ? I heard that the potency of the leaf degrades very quickly once it is cut from the plant....as far as the alkaloids that would absorb in your mouth. So i assume that you would need to use fresh leaf and in essence grow your own salvia if you want to quid......is this correct?

I would really like to give this entheogen another try..... i know people have profound experiences with this plant, and then theres a bunch of kids who post themselves on youtube smoking out of bongs and laughing hysterically......that's not what i'm looking for.

Any thought's or advice ?

i try not to should all over myself...
potty training... thanks mom...
but really a better way of putting it is you should not smoke salvia... because that what YOU think... and there for it applies only to you...
another way of putting would be...
"I will not smoke salvia because traditionally thats not the way its done and it bothers the traditional people so there for I CHOOSE not to do so... you may also wish to think about that as well because they might be on to some thing after hundreds of years of doing it..."

but then again they did not have the ability to make 10x extracts so who knows... what they would have done if they could...

Mission accomplished.

That was the whole point of the thread.

I'm not saying it's wrong to smoke Salvia divinorum if that works for you! I'm just saying to all the people who have smoked Salvia divinorum and strongly disliked it, that- "Hey give this amazing plant another look, try it another way, you may find something interesting"!



It is possible, but not ideal.

No the potency does not degrade at all with drying..

Yes you canquid dry leaf, just rehydrate it a bit first..

I have heard that at lower doses it can be like an organic sort of nitrous, but I haven ever tried nitrous..but that is a lower dose..even low doses can seem intense..a breakthrough is something else altogether..

I think most peopel get the pre-breakthrough and it can be unpleasant...

Salvia gets real interesting once you break through..but you must remain calm..it's not like DMT where every dosages level is psychedelic..like DMT at a lower dose is like eating a bit of shrooms of a hit of LSD you know??..salvia is not like that.

If you want to feel all twisted up and stretched out, pulled this way and that way than sure..smoke a mid level dose...but that in now way gives one a clue of what is possible with a breakthrough. Not that many people here are into salvia I know..so I kinda prefer to talk about it the most on other salvia specific sites..someone on one of those sites explained it like this..and it's a good explanation..something like "with DMT you get more of the same thing, just more intense and deeper levels..but with salvia it is something completely different altogether once you break through"...each level for salvia can be completely different than the level before..and I thnk it is like that...most tryptamines are more of the same thing the deeper one goes in my experience...maybe DMT isn't quite like that at a really high dose..it does seem very real as well, but not as shocking. With salvia passing through the membrane is like taking some new and differnt drug as compared to the pre-breakthrough..the breakthrough seems to actually PHYSICALLY happen in a way that is sooo differnt and removed from DMT.

I like to think of salvia as a stargate...and until you go THROUGH that gate, all you are doing is sort of turning on a light and looking at it..doesnt evoke much emotion...the chrysanthemum of DMT is more preaty, but that is eye candy..there are things beyond eye candy...going through the salvia portal though in my opinion is more intense.. I know many will disagree with me but I think that salvia is basically the most intense and jaw droppingly real psychedelic there is. I have spoken with MANY MANY experienced DMT users who agree..but will prefer DMT for most occasions..and that shouldnt sound like it is taking anything away from DMT..DMT has other things that salvia lacks..its not a competition anyway.

The thing is..most people on this forum are dedicated DMT heads(me included)...and salvia usually jsut doesnt usaully jive if you are testing a low dosefirst and comparing it to DMT...it will feel weird and most will leave it alone..besides, they have DMT anyway. When I read about lots of peoples reports here with salvia I sometimes think they have never had a breakthrough, although they seem to think they have..I know that might sound arrogant but I have smoked salvia hundreds of times..every day for weeks at a time..Nothing, and I mean NOTHING has brought me to the same level of realness...but jsut becasue it's real doesnt mean it's always going to be comforting...salvia jsut isn't a comfort drug in any sense of the term..In fact if you even feel like you are on a drug at all you prob have not taken enough..most forget EVERYTHING about this life durring a breakthrough. In that sense salvia can be one of the most amazing experiences ever because one experiences true ego death..full on salvia breakthroughs scare the living shit out of me before I have one, but one I am in I dont even remember being "me" let alone what salvia is...I dont take doses that high too often anymore, only on occasions becasue of that..though I plan to start again becasue I feel that it is important for the path I want to take in life..probabily one of the most important things I could be doing.

To me DMT and Salvinorin alpha are brothers and sisters from differnt universes altogether...they both stand alone is the sheer power and speed of the transition...and both can fully remove on from this reality and replace it completely with another one altogether..and set one back on this place within 10 minutes...and you will never be the same after.

And this is all from my personal experience..I dont care personally what the mazatecs say..I could say that maybe they just dont get it..maybe they are stuck in cultural taboo...
Obviousily I have a lot of respect for them, I look up to them as her origional students and tenders of the plant, but it's the plant that guids me not ANY human...and I have met mazatec-esque shamans on many of my slavia journeys, as well as the plant HERself..and so have many others I have spoken with...I never once ever felt that what i was doing was wrong.

Beware..she can be a trickster, like the crows ..but only if she feels it's necessary to show you somthing. besides..what shamsn isn't a trickster..they all seem to speak in riddles..


Anyways..a good dark room and feeling comfortable and TRUSTING HER is key...don't be afraid of her..and dont be afraid to tell her or them to back the fuck off if you feel the need..i do sometimes..trust me..you take enough you will talking to things that aren't there once you come down ..a bit more and you enter anothr world..but it's weird and scary and you sweat and get pins and needles and sometimes laugh you're ass off...but none of that matters on a breakthrough..just like with DMT..once you breakthrough the fear is jsut sorta gone..because "you" are gone.

Other than that,listen to Siebert..he's the man when it comes to the sage..maybe talk to some people over at the salvia section of the entheogen.com forums..lots of knowledgeable salvia heads there.

Id like for others to be able to experience accept the gifts of this plant as well...but I can understand why they are thrown off becasue my first few trips were soo unsettling to the point I though I had gone insane and completey shattered reality and ruined it for everyone! I kept wondering why any would would take salvia...I never could have imagined that psychedelics could do that. I remember that it was the first time in my life that i could understand ego, and how we categorize and collect things in our minds..My first real ego death..and it changed the way I see things forever..a true rebirthing experience..

I had brocken through and was talking to a being to the left of me..my friend though i was talking to him, and I grinned so huge and laughed "oh. I wasn't talking to you!"..Then I came down a notch and it was then that I freaked..I realized how schizophrenic it sounded, but it was only a single moment of clarity, becasue I was looking around trying to identify with things, and I couldnt do it for the life of me. I stood up and had no sense of up or down,or even where I the parameters of my body began and ended(like that brain scientists who had the stroke for those who watched that vid) and fell to the ground. I looked at my feet and did not understand what they were..I only knew that I was "something" and that I had to get "back"..I was in a field of dandylions and all I could see were these strange tall beings standing over me but they couldnt not have existed here so I can't explain them..but I was sort of one of them..and knew I was forever stuck that way. I had a alight sense of my "family", but could't grasp the concept completely, and as I came down more and more things became familiar the dread got worse bescaue reality was still shattered so i would never see them or my old life again..

I finally realized I had smoked salvia and that I was human, I remembered how my legs work and ended up laughing histarically at myself for forgetting this and the absolute absurdity of the expereince..but it was SOOO FRICKIN REAL..I was thanking god every minute of every day for the next few weeks for letting me return to this place. I had brocken through, spoken to some being about somethign I couldnt remember becasue my freind distracted me..decended into complete and utter terror..hell basically, and then emerged and re-integrated and was sooo damn thankful to be here and alive...I mean I was fucking extatic to just be me and alive again. THAT is a beautiful trip!

Now I like to lay back in the dark and close my eyes and go out of body...things can go horribly wrong if you try to interact with this reality because the 2 overlap until you hit a certain dose..Also if you have a sitter pick a good one that wont bother you with stupid questions while you are still out there.

Each person has a different entheogen path and journey and i know of a few people who enjoy smoking Salvia and learn a great deal from smoking Salvia. I do personally agree that the plant should be respected and grown, a deep connection and understanding of all entheogens should be created by the person who wants to take an entheogen path of knowledge and discovery.

Each to their own i think that each person needs to try something before they can claim anything about a specific entheogen, its at least the best scientific way to study anything. I definitely disagree with telling people that they should not smoke salvia because it may be a special and deep learning experience for them that they could miss out on. Only give advice with caution and make sure that people understand that that's your own personal view only.


Much Peace

I'm definately one of these people. Smoked salvia puts me in a weird headspace and makes my skin and even inside my bones feel horrible and I get no level of insight off it. It is truly the sour milk of the entheogen world.

I've been pondering growing my own for some time now as I've heard many good things from trustworthy people who don't like smoking it, but swear by quidding fresh leaves. The more I hear about it the more intrigued I become.

I feel the same way !

I would also like to hear about your personal psychedelic experiences in your posts, Coatl (have you smoked enhanced leaf before, have you quidded, how many times, what happened, etc). It would be wonderful if you did the same when talking about other entheogens too. This would enable people to both benefit from your personal experiences as well as judge the level of your personal experience.


A dreamer dreamed of smoking salvinorin A 40x enhanced leaf. While during his 5 or so experiments (from a 1g supply) he did find something unnerving about the experiences and one revelation in particular so much so that he decided never to smoke it again, he is still very grateful for what he learnt. He was filled with divinity and the inevitable accompanying ecstacy of 'god' which was a very rewarding experience, and he was shown by spirits in visions that reality as we see it is an illusion, as is our belief that we are separate from the rest of existence. He was taught that we are all one. The different levels of consciousness experienced from blackout to inanimacy to gradual self-awareness were fascinating. Very useful experiences. [NOTE: for safety, he tied his ankle to one bedpost and an opposing wrist to another.]

You say the natives are appalled that Westerners smoke salvia. Well, one could imagine, for example, some Peruvian shaman might be appalled to hear than a Columbian shaman smokes coca, or some Shipibo-Conibo shaman might be appalled to hear that Westerners smoke DMT instead of only drinking ayawaska, or some Western Christians might be appalled to hear that Santo Daime drink ayawaska instead of wine. Maybe they're right, or maybe they're just too bound to their own dogma. Religious people tend to get appalled rather easily.

Can one achieve the visionary intensity/ ego loss/ conscious inanimacy/ blackout of enhanced leaf just by smoking plain leaf? I wouldn't be surprised if the shaman you speak of only quid because when their traditions developed they didn't have access to extracted salvinorin A. Or maybe without modern lighters it's not possible to vaporise the salvinorin. If their traditions had developed with such knowledge, they might have used both methods, depending on the desired results. The dreamer has only ever smoked enhanced leaf though, and has never tried to smoke salvia using a burning twig, so he may be wrong on these two points, because if a similar intensity is possible with plain leaf and a burning twig, he has no idea how arduous it would be to smoke the necessary amount.

The dreamer isn't arguing that quidding is a 'nicer' experience than smoking. But he is glad that he smoked it, so he has to disagree with the subject line of this thread that "you should NOT smoke Salvia".

...Sounds like a salvia trip!

Yes some can breakthrough with plainleaf...but not everyone. The first few times I tred plainleaf I got nothing other than feeling tired after. But now I can have a full breakthrough after smoking 2 or 3 large hits in succession, and held for a long time...I think that this is where the reverse tolerancy comes into play...

I mkae 3x and that it easily stong enough for me with one big hit...though I did extract some salvinorin last week..not sure what I am going to do with it...maybe make extract...it's neat to have though..

When I quid, it honestly isnt much different at all from smoking..just more gradual, and doesnt seem to take me as far. Like if I just sit in the dark and take small hit of plain leaf every few minutes while laying back for an hour or so..it basically brings me to the same place..much gentler than smoking huge doses like 40x..thats like smoking 400mg of DMT for you're first time!...I would suggest that people DO NOT smoke 40x unless they are already familiar with salvia and enjoy it..I have been offered 40x many times and I always refuse, I dont think I would like it..lots of people loose conciousness at those doses..quidding always makes me real euphoric though because it builds up and holds me there and I end up laughing alot..

I like to quid alot, but for some reason tincture never works for me...dont know why that is. I havve chewed extract between my gums as well and it worked.

Can one achieve the visionary intensity/ ego loss/ conscious inanimacy/ blackout of enhanced leaf just by smoking plain leaf? I wouldn't be surprised if the shaman you speak of only quid because when their traditions developed they didn't have access to extracted salvinorin A.


Smoking it might not be be as conducive to they're ceremonies becasue it is on and off so fast...same as smoking DMT in the amazon, DMT is just not as healing without the vine..taking something internally I think is obviousily better for healing..as most if not all diseases start in the intestinal tract...that's why so much emphasis is put on the purge and why pharmahuasca just is not as healing as ayahuasca, unless it's making you purge as well.

bufotenine in yopo is different..it last longer and is more gradual so it makes sense that they smoke it..but they still use it internall and in enemas for healing..

Plus they use salvia internally for actaul illnesses and diseases of the gut and whatnot...alot of the time they make a brew out of it to drink..they donot always quid. And I have been told by others that it IS active in the gut..just at a higher dose and it's milder.

But still, I dont know of anyone who had plain leaf work for them at first...it takes a while, most people work with it once a week or so as the tolerancy lowers..easing themselves in..the mazatecs maybe tried it and got no effects

Coffee and tobacco are widely used as internal purgatives as well in currandismo..I have heard that coffee is really most benificial as an enema becasue it stimulates bile flow and cleans you out..same with tobacco...it's only in our culture that we use tobacco as a recreational drug and dont see the other healing benifits it can have..

So in some ways, from that point of view I can see where Coatl is actaully right...quidding or drinking salvia tea is better for healing a person on a physical level...it is called currandismo..not trippismo..not everyone is going for a physical cleans though, as that can be rough...I think most in our culture go for the phychological healing..if any healing at all..even though we in our culture with out shitty diets prob need the physical cleanse the most.

I actually make a soup sometimes, with lentils, broccoli, and cabbage, and then I add a bunch of peppermint, salvia apiana and a few large chopped up salvia divinorum leaves and drink it for dinner to get those healing effects...not sure if it is actaully helpingbut it can't hurt.. A tea from a few divinorum leaves with some white sage, peppermint and stevia is nice as well..maybe even a grams of caapi would be nice to add..

Wow that is interesting. Do you think one could achieve full effects smoking plain leaf without a modern lighter?

The dreamer was going to grow a salvia plant, but if quidding really isn't all that different, he probably won't bother (and leave the windowsill for more cacti!). Is there still that strange unnerving feeling when quidding?