I fully accept that children are very intelligent, when I spoke of brain development I meant other things as well, such as emotional development, I guess what I'm saying is that I don't like the idea of children in this society with what guidance I and most can provide running the risk of a traumatic experience. I understand that these experiences are where much learning comes from, but I think that there is plenty of learning and magic that comes simply from childhood.

I second Mustelid on this. Childhood is already magic enought by itself : no need for re-evaluations, re-wireing, and all other "re" when ideas are just starting to form. The thing is idea's should never be considered complete, thus one of the virtues of psychedelics as it shows us how absurd it is to think the opposite ! If you forget childhood : take psychedelics.

Of course I might not be considering other aspects, but when you only look at this one I belive it is enought to say that young children should not consume any psychedelic substances.

Here's my take on this :
Raising a child is an incredibly complex and demanding task; especially in today's information-saturated, fast-paced, high-tech world.
Children have A LOT to learn and be responsible for without altering their consciousness.
I've found that LSD and other Psychedelics actually bring me back to being a child.
Those intense feelings of wonder & joy & learning.
Life is MAGICAL for children, they live in a psychedelic experience already (we all do).
We can slowly lose that magic as we mature.

So my answer to whether I would give psychedelic drugs to my CHILDREN (when they're still CHILDREN):

No way, their brain is developing and learning at a very immense rate already, no need to alter that.
There is more than enough things for me to teach them and them to learn on their own.
Let nature take it's course.

As for whether I would discuss psychedelics with my children once they reach, what I consider to be, MATURITY:

Yes. Although I certainly WOULD NOT force it on them or even pressure them.
It is very important to pass down knowledge to the youth but not to force it on them.
I would openly and honestly discuss my experiences and unbiased truth regarding psychedelics, because I believe that psychedelics can lead to profound experiences that are highly valuable.
Whether or not they want to use them is entirely their mature conscious choice.
Psychedelics can be great tools to use, but I certainly don't believe they are necessary in life.







I disagree with much of what you are saying.
Children certainly need guidance from elders.
We are a species highly dependent on social interaction and passing of (and therefore preserving) learned knowledge down through the generations.
Without passing of knowledge down from elders to youth, you wouldn't know 0.00001% of what you know right now.

Thanks for your thought provoking posts. While your above statement makes a lot of sense (although I'm tempted to ask if not seeking a rule of thumb is in itself a rule of thumb ), I think the post was more meant to gauge individual people's opinions on whether they would give psychedelics to their children. I enjoy how different some of the opinions have been here; it's definitely an issue I have thought about a lot personally but haven't really read about elsewhere.

Here is a quote, however, that I did read from the NY Times about Zena Grey (daughter of visionary artist Alex Grey):



I really like their approach. Personally, I would never want to pressure my children into anything, but if they have questions I am going to answer them. It's kind of similar to the question of when you reveal sex to a child; I am of the school that knowledge about it, rather than forbidding all contact, actually causes less problems later in life. Same goes for how to handle a gun.

Do you really want television and popular media to shape your children's view of psychedelics? In so many places, I see a ton of jokes about people eating a bunch of mushrooms then losing their minds and seeing crazy cartoon characters. But they don't usually show the life-changing revelations that can come from trips, nor do they show the utter terror that one can undergo during.

Taboo leads to misfortune. But also I have a psychedelic tattoo and may have more by the time I have kids, so they will be asking what it is once they reach a certain age! I believe that I should give them all the knowledge and various opinions on drugs, sex, guns, politics, etc. and let them decide for themselves, while supporting them with whatever they choose. Of course I'll be a little biased, but hey, I feel like I've gotten pretty good results.

This is an incredibly important and powerful topic and question. My hat is off to DisEmboDied. I'm especially touched by your other post about Bible Thumpers and DMT, and ruminating deeply how you will reconcile the tensions you feel between traditions, love for family, and forging your own metaphysical path.

The responses here at the Nexus are amazing. Anamnesia, I hear your passion and poetic insights, and I definitely resonate with many of your thoughts, loved this: "And that is what really ignites my fire, because I want to do everything I can to show people that we need to learn from our children, not try to teach them." To me that's about returning to the child like AWE to the Mystery of the World, being Inspired and Enlighted by it, like the Wonderment Reflected in a kid's eyeballs. But please forgive me, I'm not sure you've had kids or have raised children yet? I could be wrong, but I hear some other Nexian voices here that Yes they definitely have kids.

I think most would agree that real wisdom comes through experience. I cannot imagine a better teacher for me to the most important lessons in life than having come from raising a child. And we're just getting started: to learn what my parents went (what I and my siblings put them) through. I know kids aren't going to be everyone's path, but SO beautiful to read how Doc Buxin and his wife adopted three children. Saintly words, saintly advice.

What parents impart to their children, no matter their age, seems to me literally the unfolding of the world that we want the world to become. In my opinion, even more so, this is for our children that we do not yet know: our grandchildren, our great grandchildren and on and on.

I’ve had the opportunity to break bread many times in Chasidic households. While I may not agree with many things promulgated by religion for religion's sake, I have been fortunate to have had a couple wonderful and deeply mystical teachers, one of whom was a Lubavitcher Rebbe. During the Sabbath meal, candles lit, we stood around the dining table altogether, a table surrounded by the arrows of his quiver, six sons. We would all hold hands and sing together. Joyous, sorrowful, other worldly wordless melodies. And something magical would happen.

Clearly these sons had their father’s mystical vibe. For me the singing conjured a nearly instantaneous altered state, resultant from invoking some spiritual substance that rained down into the room. It was palatable, beautiful, even hair raising. The edges of all forms glowed: the chairs, their hats, even the book shelf, and the air felt rarified and sparkly. The songs had no words, just melodies. I was told the melodies were very old, likely dating back to the early 1800’s at the start of Chasid movement in Eastern Europe. Call it proto-Fiddler on the Roof meets Timothy Leary meets the Secret Order of Black Hats.

The Rebbe and I had many conversations about this. He would ask himself, aloud, addressing me, and I paraphrase him, “So how do I know I’m right? That this Knowing is the Only and True Way, as I have been spoon fed these esoteric traditions from my childhood, the same way I am teaching my sons. I have not known anything else.”

I can plainly say that they were evoking if not a psychedelic state, certainly an altered state of consciousness. We can speculate and theorize that some sort of sympathetic resonance tied in with sound and cymatics tickled and awoke some deep cultural and even physiological DNA; and so released all sorts of wonderful and mysterious neurotransmitters, our genes expressing all aflutter in electrical clouds, and giving rise to rarely sequenced metabolites and a fireworks of triggers. Literally our brains were brimming in a psychedelic cholent. Powerful, powerful stuff.

So is there a difference between what we seek and do with psychedelics and what my mystical Lubavitcher friend does with his sons? This expression of a personal self and a Collective Self, the family, and the world that emerges from there: what is it that this Rebbe was doing with his sons and this state consciousness? He may tell you that they are putting the shards of light that had broken and rained down from the First Light, the Ein Sof, back into their proper shells. Or orbits. Or robes. Or whatever metaphor is most poetic and meaningful. All in order to Restore the Universe back to its Original state. And these ideas were intimately woven in with their whole way of being in the world. What they practiced and prayed, what they ate, what they read, what they studied - and how they related to the world around them.

Did it make them better people in the world? In their eyes, yes. The rebbe would tease me and say, “Oh, you’ve had a taste. You’ll be back. I may not be here, but someone else will be here in my stead, and you’ll be back.” In the end wasn’t quite my cup of tea, but there was an understanding.

So will there come a day when I will share a psychedelic experience with my son, who six years old now? I think we already have, not a psychedelic one, but a self-aware and mutually shared and powerful, peak and entactogenic experience. Boogie Boarding! This was the summer my son ventured out further and further into the waves with me. And his lessons had him finally turned around, facing the shore, while the swells were approaching from behind us.

And then it happened.

One beautiful wave blossomed up behind us, just right: “Jump!” I yelled, and the wave came crashing down. We both caught it! And we raced it into shore together, hanging forward from the edge of our boards, airfoils atop the cresting white water and tumbling fury beneath us. We kept looking over to one another, smiling, exhilarated and laughing, caught in a paradox both incredulous and overjoyed. When we got to shore, we both said, “Best ride ever!” That was the peak experience, definitely an altered state of consciousness. Every endorphin and dopamine receptor must have been firing off. I kvelled, I was elated, I was in heaven (I might have been my Dad at that moment)! So was my boy.

We give our children the world. In my mind, all things considered, and that my son and I should have our health, I think there is a natural progression that one day I will be sharing my spiritual practices more so with him. That may include psychedelics. My rite of passage into psychedelics though was self-initiated. It certainly was not a part of my parents world. Now I had an older brother who was something of a mystical dude, took me to my first rock concerts, performance art, and meteor showers (I was like eight, nine years old when we started); and who sadly passed on when I was a teen. No doubt though my induction to the Other Side of the Mirror, vibratory and experiential, it came through him. Now I would like to have the sort of relationship with my son that if he does want to venture into psychedelics some day, that he will come to me first, and not to his friends. Hopefully that is what I am cultivating.

To close, I think I've mentioned in some other posts or private messages recently, there may come a time when I may shroom with my aging parents. I’d like to have that shared experience with them. Perhaps. Maybe the question DisEmboDied asked could be reversed? Should children introduce psychedelics to their parents?

Honor thy Mother and Father...I plead the Fifth.

"... there is plenty of learning and magic that comes simply from childhood."

"Childhood is already magic enought by itself."

"If you forget childhood : take psychedelics."

"... psychedelics actually bring me back to being a child.
Those intense feelings of wonder & joy & learning.
Life is MAGICAL for children, they live in a psychedelic experience already (we all do).
We can slowly lose that magic as we mature."
"It is very important to pass down knowledge to the youth but not to force it on them."

My is there great wisdom in this forum!

"And I say unto you, until you become again as a child you will in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven"

"give them all the knowledge and various opinions on drugs, sex, guns, politics, etc. and let them decide for themselves, while supporting them with whatever they choose."

Exactly.

"I disagree with much of what you are saying.
Children certainly need guidance from elders.
We are a species highly dependent on social interaction and passing of (and therefore preserving) learned knowledge down through the generations.
Without passing of knowledge down from elders to youth, you wouldn't know 0.00001% of what you know right now."

Hmm. Children, I agree, do need guidance from the community. We are social beings, we are incredibly dependent on each other much more than we realize. We do depend on much learned knowledge of the past, and yes, we wouldn't be who we are without the torch of collective knowledge having been passed on to us. All that is perfectly well.
However, your saying that "without passing of knowledge down from elders to youth, you wouldn't know 0.00001% of what you know right now," is not exactly true in my opinion, because I think that assertion rests on the assumption that all meaningful insight/wisdom/teaching/understanding could not known without a guide, without the wise. The reason the wise became the wise was not because the technicians guarding the sacred fires of reality passed on their robes. The reason the children are the wise is because they see, without any education on how to do so, reality as it truly is, which we grow out of by virtue of a program including people telling us who we are and what we should do and what we ought to believe.

Now, I'm not saying that the elders among us are not wise or helpful or worth anything or any of that.
What I Am saying is : is that the elders cannot be wise without first recognizing the natural wisdom of the child - and knowing that the wisdom of the child does not to be corrected, or guided, or manipulated for entry into the "real world" of human adult society. If the elders do not understand that they can learn from the wisdom of the child, then they can in wise ever be wise because of their arrogance.
I do not have kids. If ever I do, then I will be asking them why the moon is a circle and not a square. Not the other way around.

Alloklais: I do not have children. I am but a child myself! That's why I'm defending the children! All of what I'm saying concerns solely the perspective of the child, not anyone else's guilty conscience addicted to moral opium. I think that when we ask these questions we should reflect on our own childhoods, and ask ourselves if we (having grown up) really at all appreciate the way in which we were raised. I speak for myself - but I wasn't raised with anyone to tell me these things. I had no father. No Gandalf. No elder person. No one wise. This makes me on a certain level furious because I feel cheated in a certain way. Knowledge, all knowledge, is our birthright. Knowledge is provisional and that insight needs to be passed on the new members of humanity.
The acquired wisdom absolutely needs to be passed on. But in order for older people to do that they first must understand that the child needs no education on fundamental matters for the same reason one does not preach a lecture to the young vegetables growing up in the spring. Don't grow this way, or that! Don't do this. Don't do that. It's all I ever heard as a child. I'm tired of that. No more.

"What parents impart to their children, no matter their age, seems to me literally the unfolding of the world that we want the world to become."
I agree! And so long as we continue with our own children passing on the same beat-around-the-point guilty-conscience lessons as we inherited that new world will never happen. Somebody has to simply say no to all that. And "be the change you want to see in the world". Yes, I know it's cliche.


"I can plainly say that they were evoking if not a psychedelic state, certainly an altered state of consciousness. We can speculate and theorize that some sort of sympathetic resonance tied in with sound and cymatics tickled and awoke some deep cultural and even physiological DNA; and so released all sorts of wonderful and mysterious neurotransmitters, our genes expressing all aflutter in electrical clouds, and giving rise to rarely sequenced metabolites and a fireworks of triggers. Literally our brains were brimming in a psychedelic cholent. Powerful, powerful stuff."

Sounds alot like the dmt experience I just went through! I love your writing like I adore a butterfly.
It brings me great joy to read your experience with your son. 6 years old. Wow. What it would be like to have a child? Incomprehensible to me. I can only nod to everyone else and yield to the wisdom of that experience. Your son is very fortunate. I'm so happy for the both of you

"Be the change you wish to see in the world"

That may be cliche, but it's a powerful one. Imagine if the entire population put that into practice

I share Anamnesia's opinion concerning this since saying that 99.9999% (whatever) that we know commes from our elders is saying that the 0.0001 % remaining contains all human progress, evolution, new thoughts, etc but we know from experience that this is not true : it is a much bigger percentage. Children, us, we are the children we are the world should not be underestimated.

I would like to deeply & sincerely thank DisEmboDied for starting this thread...

I would also like to deeply, humbly & sincerely thank Anamnesia & Alloklais for their particularly eloquent words of wisdom...

I thank everyone else who has contributed to this thread for their input...

This is the kind of thread that I originally joined the nexus for!!! Beautiful, wise insight & well thought-out posts about the state of our existence (and of our non-existence simultaneously).

Thank you all!!!

Peace.

Anamnesia, you know you have to be 18 to join this forum, right?

...Sorry, I couldn't resist myself

I find I learn a lot from being around children. They tend to have such an innocent curiosity of the world round them. I feel like I go through phases where I am accompanied by that childlike mindset.

Also, I wish I could draw like children do. The way kids draw has a certain quality about it that seems to diminish once they get older. It's a style that cannot be repeated once reaching a certain age IMO.

“All children are artists. The problem is how to remain an artist once he grows up.” – Pablo Picasso

My father is the one who taught me how to extract dmt and introduced me to this forum.

He never condoned drugs as I was growing up. I actually had some law trouble issues for cannabis when I was in high school and he enoucraged me to stop doing it. I later developed a nasty opiate addiction and he was still encouraging me to quit. I ended up stopping and coming clean to him and my mother. After that him and I started being extremely open with each other and the topic of psychedelics came up. At first we just discussed experiences, but one day I told him that I had some MHRB and wanted to try extracting. He unloaded TONS of info on me and showed me this forum. He actually walked me through my first extraction. How to do it safely and how to get the best yields. He has been an enormous help and a great roll model. He taught me to respect psychedelics and to not abuse them. Although I have never consumed with him, he has been the biggest influence.

My mother and I started opening up after I quit opiates as well and started talking about psychedelics. She mentioned that she liked shrooms. So I have brought shrooms home a couple of times. One time we tripped together while hiking in the mountains and fishing. IT was a cool trip. And another time we tripped at the house. It was a bit awkward. I felt constricted in what I was doing and she seemed to be holding back as well.

Anyways that's my story of my "psychedelic relationship" with my parent. By the way, all this happened after I turned 19.

hostilis

Anyways, I like how my parents did it and that's how I would approach it if I had children. IF they are getting into trouble or abusing drugs I would encourage them to quit, but eventually when they get older I'll introduce them to pschedelics (or they'll introduce them to me.)

Good thread topic and some interesting opinions on here as always.

We are all kids here in this school of life, equal before eternity. Spirits embodied in ape flesh to be taught the lessons of the physical material realm which are all designed to drive our and cosmic evolutions on many planes and dimensions of existence.

I believe the life force part of us is truly eternal and therefore has gone through a multitude of states of being, prior to this experience here on earth in this form. Therefore your child is likely to have had even more prior incarnations then you, who knows...

It is also possible that children pick their parents or get distributed in a way to be taught the lessons they need to go through next. Same with the parents, as having a child is the ultimate non stop lesson in life! So having children is like gaining teachers while being a teacher, and besides all the poetic meaning of that phrase, our children will be more expert in a lot of things and very quickly will be able to give you tips and advice, like you do with your parents now.

At the end of the day your child is you version 2.0 the upgrade, he/she carries in their DNA all your experiences (including all the information about your trips and the altered neural networks that exist because of that) besides all your ancestors down to the prehistoric fish and amoebae.

In theory they are already more adapted to the visionary sate physiologically then you were, they are more ready for it thanks to your "hard work".

As a parent myself I feel its all about leading by example and sharing the knowledge you have amassed in your experience on planet earth, like sharing tips and tricks to playing a game with your best friend. Not to say that they might not be relevant to him/her but at least they might remember not to bump their head on the same things you did, although some bumps are very necessary and beneficial (you can communicate that too.) Basically try and be completely honest about things, this can only lead to the TRUTH surfacing.

If you can be your child's role model in the way you deal with reality, be on top of your game and at the same time use entheogens, then thats the best way to share with them their potential benefits.

I saw my son in a vision prior to him being conceived. When the time is right I am sure we will share a visionary experience and understand deeper what our eternal connection is and how to teach and upgrade each other and be even better best friends in this mad monkey 3d spirit space classroom Earth

BIG LOVE to YOU ALL

p.s. Hostilis, surprised you never shared the sate with your dad given all you went through, IMHO its definitely worth doing, I would love to do it with my dad although its not likely to happen any time soon.

ostilis: That is a wonderful relationship you developed with your father. I am happy to hear these things are being implemented into culture through the generations.

GARMONIUM: I couldn't have put it better myself. I too had a premonition of my first son long before he was here, and feel as though my children chose my wife and I. but who knows, just a funny feeling

Thank you DisEmboDied for this thread, and all who contributed.
The mentality shared here on the Nexus is one that I feel future generations could/should inherit.

While I have, for a few decades, shared some of the philosophical ideas presented by Anamnesia in this thread; the OP strikes a very practical and grounded cord with me. I cannot think of any kind of experience that could put me in my skin like being a parent has.

My three children are all still fairly young, but show a clear capacity for the type of mystical experiences mentioned by Alloklais. Thanks for the reminder of such, Alloklais - we all need regular reminders of such. And while I have no plans of suddenly producing a dmt pipe from my pocket and presenting it out of the blue to one or more of my children (especially while they're still children); I see psychotropics as having enormous potential benefit to anyone trying to explore them self or reality.

I would be profoundly surprised if my children didn't breach the subject with me between now and adulthood, and I look forward to any opportunities to slowly introducing the idea in manageable bites. I will be most pleased to be open with them if/when the time comes and if it doesn't come up while they're still under my care, I will bring it up myself, adult to adult.

As far as sharing an experience or supplying them with something? Without a doubt or fear or presenting frightening caveats, if they were near enough adulthood and expressing interest.

The first time I drank ayahuasca it was hosted by a family. They had a kid who was no more than 11, maybe 12, who partook with all of us. Im not sure how long he had been drinking aya for, but he had at least 2 or 3 years going for him iirc.

I dont have a strong opinion, but I dont think theres anything inherently wrong with introducing young people to psychedelics in certain contexts.

The single most important thing you can teach your children in this day and age is the real function of the media and to teach them how to analyse the media and information. Teach your children that anytime they view any form of information, that they should ask the question "what does the author/blogger/film maker/journalist want to be true?" - and then teach them to search for the evidence provided by those making the claims.

Teach them critical thinking. Teach them how to seek accurate information and cross reference sources; teach them, that one source of information is only a single perspective of the whole truth, and that there is no single perspective better than others. Teach your children to understand that credibility of info comes from multiple sources and to never take anything on face value.

The media will not shape your child's view on anything, if you teach your child the skills to be media-savvy.

As for my two cents on the topic at hand: Would I give psychedelics to my offspring?

No, not likely.

First and foremost: I believe people should make their own decision whether to investigate psychedelics or not. Researching and learning about psychedelics, is part of the journey itself. If a person doesn't undertake the journey to learn about these substances, then they may be missing crucial personal lessons regarding self-responsibility, the importance of patience and the importance of treading carefully - these lessons in their own right are vital for having productive and safe psychedelic experiences. Give advice, give information - but above all, teach them how to seek for accurate information.

Two: If this question is specifically regarding offspring-who-are-still-children, then the answer is still almost certainly "no". I think a better question to ask is "why do some people give their children psychedelics?".

In most cases, I find children do not require psychedelics; and looking back at my own childhood, I do not regret having not taken psychedelics as a child - additionally, I'm very glad that I didn't get into psychedelics any sooner than I did (I started very occasionally smoking cannabis when I was 15, but I didn't take lsd until I was at least in my twenties).

Clearly, responsible users of psychedelics use these drugs for different reasons, but what reason could a child have for wanting to use them? What reason would a parent have for wanting to give their children psychedelics? Some adults, don't need to take psychedelics. Some adults, just shouldn't go near them and this is usually found out the hard way.

Should a child have to find out the hard way that psychedelics just aren't for them? We all know that psychedelics can be a very traumatising experience when they don't go to plan - why should a child run the risk of experiencing great trauma at such a young age, knowing full well that they have not fully developed the coping strategies that an adult has?

I understand that people from other cultures may allow their children to use psychedelics (ie, ayahuasca ceremonies) - but these are vastly different cultures from our own, and such scenarios cannot be compared to our own cultures. Nor are we taking into account that every family has strongly different dynamics, and how people treat their children isn't necessarily how we should treat our own.

I feel I must clarify, that one must teach their children about drugs and responsible use if they ever one day want to partake - absolutely.

But like it or not, children's minds are still developing - every little thing they experience, shapes them into who they are. A childhoood should be spent learning and developing important skills that they will use for the rest of their life. You only get one shot at childhood.

I understand that some people could advocate that the psychedelic experience as a tool may offer a child valuable insights, potentially being beneficial for their development. I accept that may be true, but I don't think it's worth the risk. If psychedelics have taught me anything, it's that patience is a virtue - and there's no hurry to use psychedelics (but don't leave it too late! ).

Regarding adolescence:

This is slightly trickier. As mentioned earlier, I don't think psychedelic use is necessary for a still developing mind, and even if it can sometimes be beneficial (which I'm sure it can be) I don't believe it's worth risking possible trauma with a person who has not fully matured or developed a system of healthy coping strategies.

I think teenagers should be strongly encouraged to wait until they are adults, before pursuing drug use. If you feel that despite the sensible, accurate, helpful and honest advice you have given your child about drugs, that they may take matters into their own hands, then you should continue to provide further resources so that your child can make an even more informed choice regarding drug use - and provide a safe context for them to begin their first experimentations.

Some kids are just going to do whatever they want, and the most helpful thing you can do is reduce their risk of coming to harm.

There are risks regarding your self also. Are you prepared to risk it all, if word gets out to law enforcement that you have been providing drugs to your children? Is that worth it?

Whether or not you introduce drug use to your children, is a choice only you can make - but weigh up the risks, ask yourself what your intentions are, be aware of the potentially serious consequences (with the law, with their health and well-being etc) - and make sure you ask yourself whether you are doing it for them, or doing it for yourself.

Lichen: I don't believe anyone here was wondering about introducing psychedelics to an immature adolescent child.
I believe the OP was about sharing something meaningful with someone meaningful. The relationships we have are what we grow from. We are all connected, very connected to friends, even more connected to lovers, but the connection between parents and children(DNA) is the strongest.

It all depends if I feel psychedelics are right for the individual in question. Ideally the answer would be YES but it would have to be one hell of a special situation for it to happen. I'm an intuitive introvert. Give me a psychedelic and fireworks go off. Situations occur which should be impossible, obstacles must be overcome. I'm a fighter and I don't go down easy, if at all. But given what I have experienced it would be very difficult for me to pass those experiences down to my own flesh and blood who may or may not carry my own neurotic tendencies.

would i give psyches to my pre 18 children?
no, it seems ridiculously stupid and irresponsable to me.

would i give them to my adult offspring, if i had them?
i guess if they want to do them then its better coming from me than anywhere else.