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The Infinitely Reincarnating Materialist? Options
 
5 Dimensional Nick
#1 Posted : 8/27/2015 11:15:29 PM

"Full of multiversal flow!"


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Dear Nexians,

First let me say how much I have enjoyed interacting with all you interesting, thoughtful, smart people on here. Its a joy to discuss stuff and/or have a laugh. Also, although I probably don't have to, I wanna apologize for when the replies get very long and many and I don't retort, although its usually because I have been beaten in an argument, but because sometimes its cos I have a rubbish attention span and cannot concentrate long enough.

I am posting cos I came up with a nu theory and am interested to see what you think.

So here goes.

Given that one believes in materialism or something close and there is no "soul" and that when you die everything goes "black" forever but it doesn't matter because you are not aware of it, and that huge eons of time can pass and from the perspective of the dead person this would take no time at all (or even be happening), wouldn't it follow that eventually in googolplexs and googolplexs of eons, or the Poincaré recurrence time for this universe, said dead person would miraculously spring back to life, no time seeming to have past at all?

Also when this person died again the exact same thing would happen again? And again, and again ad infinitum meaning that even a staunch materialist will live forever, soul or not?

Food for thought? OR crazy nonsense?

Cheers guys,

5DN.
"Anonymous around the mouse, hyperspace black ops in my house,
A technical itch you can't ignore, viral like that magic spore,
Laced in life like a blockchain, special characters around my name,
They got game like Nintendo flow, it's always the same you will know,
I can't be pinned down like a Q-Bit, my architecture all neuromorphic,
On the roof if the internet had one, fire escape's fibre optic dragon." Onepacman
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
kerelsk
#2 Posted : 8/28/2015 2:51:47 AM

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So are you talking about the an extrapolation of materialism as one might conceive it or the truth as best anyone can figure it?

I don't really see how a staunch materialst could see the world, because certainly there is consciousness, and since there is how is there just material and nothing else.

One thing I hear is that some people think that once you're dead, there is nothingness and like you say it's so nothing that you're not aware of any time passing in the lives of the living, and it just stays that way forever. When you're dead, you're dead.

But that doesn't make any sense to me because you got into living somehow, and nothing seems to stay the same forever, there's always the on/off game going on in the universe. How could you have darkness forever? How do you have black with no white?

Quote:
Also when this person died again the exact same thing would happen again? And again, and again ad infinitum meaning that even a staunch materialist will live forever, soul or not?


What does being a materialist have to do with the reality of existence? Big grin

It's seems like you're arguing semantics, or how a certain ideology perceives metaphysics.

I think consciousness will live forever, no matter what shade you are right now.
 
5 Dimensional Nick
#3 Posted : 8/28/2015 5:30:19 AM

"Full of multiversal flow!"


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Not sure you understood my post correctly.

Firstly I didn't actually specify this but I believe in infinite conciousness, similar or the same as you.

My OP is a philosophical argument/musing I came up with to call into question the finality of materialist/atheist's belief in permanent "death", with this seemingly absurd but logical argument.

Also materialism doesn't deny consciousness it just assumes that it is an emergent property of matter and the laws of physics and one has no free-will, I believe.

"Anonymous around the mouse, hyperspace black ops in my house,
A technical itch you can't ignore, viral like that magic spore,
Laced in life like a blockchain, special characters around my name,
They got game like Nintendo flow, it's always the same you will know,
I can't be pinned down like a Q-Bit, my architecture all neuromorphic,
On the roof if the internet had one, fire escape's fibre optic dragon." Onepacman
 
jamie
#4 Posted : 8/28/2015 6:31:19 AM

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"Given that one believes in materialism or something close and there is no "soul" and that when you die everything goes "black" forever but it doesn't matter because you are not aware of it, and that huge eons of time can pass and from the perspective of the dead person this would take no time at all (or even be happening), wouldn't it follow that eventually in googolplexs and googolplexs of eons, or the Poincaré recurrence time for this universe, said dead person would miraculously spring back to life, no time seeming to have past at all?"


Isn't it ironic, though, that you just wrote a paragraph about it?

"you can fit logic into life, but you can't fit life into logic"
-Sadhguru
Long live the unwoke.
 
5 Dimensional Nick
#5 Posted : 8/28/2015 7:08:18 AM

"Full of multiversal flow!"


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Love the quote. The irony however is lost on me.
"Anonymous around the mouse, hyperspace black ops in my house,
A technical itch you can't ignore, viral like that magic spore,
Laced in life like a blockchain, special characters around my name,
They got game like Nintendo flow, it's always the same you will know,
I can't be pinned down like a Q-Bit, my architecture all neuromorphic,
On the roof if the internet had one, fire escape's fibre optic dragon." Onepacman
 
RAM
#6 Posted : 8/29/2015 5:27:58 AM

Hail the keys!


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Well I'm not a scientist at all, but isn't the common perception that the universe just sprang out of nothing really with the Big Bang and will come to an end in a couple trillion years in the Big Crunch? Even with all of that space and a couple trillion years I feel like what you are proposing could only happen a limited number of times before the universe simply ended. Although this is not how I believe things to be, I feel like this is how the materialist/reductionist might respond to your post.
"Think for yourself and question authority." - Leary

"To step out of ideology - it hurts. It's a painful experience. You must force yourself to do it." - Žižek
 
5 Dimensional Nick
#7 Posted : 8/29/2015 11:54:09 AM

"Full of multiversal flow!"


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No actually. The current scientific consensus, due to the universe not only expanding but expanding faster and faster as time progresses is that there will never be a big crunch but a big freeze, otherwise known as the heat death of the universe. Its quite depressing and although seems logically sound to current scientists understanding I believe it too may be illogical.
"Anonymous around the mouse, hyperspace black ops in my house,
A technical itch you can't ignore, viral like that magic spore,
Laced in life like a blockchain, special characters around my name,
They got game like Nintendo flow, it's always the same you will know,
I can't be pinned down like a Q-Bit, my architecture all neuromorphic,
On the roof if the internet had one, fire escape's fibre optic dragon." Onepacman
 
Amygdala
#8 Posted : 9/2/2015 11:02:44 AM

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I read your question as: If I don't believe in anything supernatural, is it still a possibility that "I" can happen again after my death?

Here's my 2c, borrowed from many sources:

the universe is a giant recycling-compost bin. Every part of me used to be something else, will be something else long before I am 'dead'. My trillions of cells and uncountable number of atoms didn't spontaneously arrive at my birth and I've sloughed off more cells than I can imagine in my life so far. Nothing supernatural about the notion that we are made of the stuff of the universe and absorb/dissipate into it all the time

I happened once, not out of nothing, but of the great recycle bin arranging itself

I suppose I may happen again, with no knowledge of my current self. Out of an infinite composted combinations, is it crazy to think I may happen again in some other form?

One life as 'me' is plenty. Imagine how boring it would be to be you forever.

I make no claim that this is correct - just my thoughts
“What goes on inside is just too fast and huge and all interconnected for words to do more than barely sketch the outlines of at most one tiny little part of it at any given instant.” - David Foster Wallace
 
Pihuechenyi
#9 Posted : 9/4/2015 10:04:45 PM

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I get you 5DN. I love watching Brian Cox and he's always talking about how if the universe is infinite anything that can happen must happen. Of course that's a big 'if'.

Are you familiar with the concept of Boltzman Brains? https://plus.maths.org/content/dreaming-dream

Quote: The idea is that, according to quantum mechanics, there is energy in empty space which can fluctuate, producing particles as it does so. "If you wait long enough then these fluctuations will form, not just a particle here and a particle there, but a whole complex collection of them. A virus, or a little bunny rabbit, or even a functioning human being," explains Sean Carroll, a theoretical physicist at California Institute of Technology. "The idea is that a brain is the simplest thing that can randomly fluctuate into existence and can still be counted as a conscious being." Such a brain is called a Boltzmann brain.

I guess if these are proposed by physicists then your proposal isn't too far out, as in eventually we could spontaneously appear again out of fluctuations.

I did however read that out of the entire life of the universe until the point of heat death the proportion of time that the universe is favourable to life is infinitesimal so maybe that's a sticking point. We would need infinite space rather than infinite time for it to work.
 
thymamai
#10 Posted : 9/5/2015 9:25:47 PM

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Borges, the human library, on Nietzsche and the eternal return which he developed in i think thus spake zarathrustra.
 
Nathanial.Dread
#11 Posted : 9/7/2015 5:52:46 AM

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Where is the evidence for this? How do we know it's the same person? How do we know that you today are the same person you were yesterday? By what mechanism might your hypothetical materialist 'come back?'

I can create thousands of theories (for example, is it possible that, given the inherently probablistic nature of the universe, I may wake up as a carrot, and given the googleplexes of time, might we all become carrots?), but unless there's something verifiable, or at the very least, something that ties it into perceivable, verifiable, facts about the universe, it's just...speculation.

We can play the 'what-if' game forever.

Also: be wary of 'quantum mysticism,' which is the belief that, since quantum mechanics doesn't make intuitive sense, we can just take the concepts and run with them, stripping them of all context. That's how we end up with pseudoscience dressed up as verifiable, actual science, which can be very, very dangerous.

Blessings
~ND
"There are many paths up the same mountain."

 
darklordsson
#12 Posted : 9/8/2015 5:33:50 AM

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Nathanial.Dread wrote:
Where is the evidence for this? How do we know it's the same person? How do we know that you today are the same person you were yesterday? By what mechanism might your hypothetical materialist 'come back?'


~ND


I absolutely love this quote as it makes an erra of explained circumstances happening. No one is the same brought back from an experience as deep as one would perceive. It is all perception to the individual to make them individual from any other. Its individuality, working at its best. To take the best and worst and make something great out of nothing (which we all were once) and making something great.

My best wishes,

dls
 
tseuq
#13 Posted : 9/8/2015 9:42:00 AM

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darklordsson wrote:
Nathanial.Dread wrote:
Where is the evidence for this? How do we know it's the same person? How do we know that you today are the same person you were yesterday? By what mechanism might your hypothetical materialist 'come back?'


I absolutely love this quote as it makes an erra of explained circumstances happening. No one is the same brought back from an experience as deep as one would perceive. It is all perception to the individual to make them individual from any other. Its individuality, working at its best. To take the best and worst and make something great out of nothing (which we all were once) and making something great.


What/who am I? Do I want to believe in something? To me, I am just an idea, a concept, a story to which I stick and tell myself in my mind. "True self" is formless and thus all forms and appears only in the now, it (I) is (am) free. Nevertheless, loving myself unconditonally and recognizing myself as the others seems to be my base for making something "great". Love, which is the intention of my actions, feels just so .....

tseuq
Everything's sooo peyote-ful..
 
darklordsson
#14 Posted : 9/10/2015 3:32:17 AM

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tseuq wrote:
darklordsson wrote:
Nathanial.Dread wrote:
Where is the evidence for this? How do we know it's the same person? How do we know that you today are the same person you were yesterday? By what mechanism might your hypothetical materialist 'come back?'


I absolutely love this quote as it makes an erra of explained circumstances happening. No one is the same brought back from an experience as deep as one would perceive. It is all perception to the individual to make them individual from any other. Its individuality, working at its best. To take the best and worst and make something great out of nothing (which we all were once) and making something great.


What/who am I? Do I want to believe in something? To me, I am just an idea, a concept, a story to which I stick and tell myself in my mind. "True self" is formless and thus all forms and appears only in the now, it (I) is (am) free. Nevertheless, loving myself unconditonally and recognizing myself as the others seems to be my base for making something "great". Love, which is the intention of my actions, feels just so .....

tseuq


Best idea I have is stop thinking as yourself as an Idea and start thinking yourself as a being that "is", and more of what you are, theres alot some of us need to cope with and start our own paths. Just don't hate the past, it made you who you are now, and if you don't like now, you can change it, any time you want.

Best wishes!

dls
 
tseuq
#15 Posted : 9/10/2015 11:39:08 AM

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darklordsson wrote:
Best idea I have is stop thinking as yourself as an Idea and start thinking yourself as a being that "is",...


What I mean is, that I don't have to think of myself as anything as a requirement to be. Thus what ever I think of myself is always just an idea, a representational self. Seeing myself as a being that is sounds pretty pure, wow, how great it is to simply be alive!

darklordsson wrote:
...start our own paths. Just don't hate the past, it made you who you are now, and if you don't like now, you can change it, any time you want.


Om Shiva.

love, tseuq
Everything's sooo peyote-ful..
 
5 Dimensional Nick
#16 Posted : 9/14/2015 5:41:10 AM

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ah have returned to find much deep and profound replies to my OP. cheers guys.

its good to question this stuff such as what makes me me? i'm gunna keep pondering... wonder if this can ever be answered.

big love Nexians
"Anonymous around the mouse, hyperspace black ops in my house,
A technical itch you can't ignore, viral like that magic spore,
Laced in life like a blockchain, special characters around my name,
They got game like Nintendo flow, it's always the same you will know,
I can't be pinned down like a Q-Bit, my architecture all neuromorphic,
On the roof if the internet had one, fire escape's fibre optic dragon." Onepacman
 
hixidom
#17 Posted : 9/15/2015 8:21:02 PM
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To elaborate on ND's post, imagine this hypothetical scenario: An exact replica of you is somehow produced, while the original you is put into a coma. Does the consciousness timeline of the you that is in a coma continue with the replica of you, or is it still unconscious? I think there is a problem of identity, as in if you disappear from one spacetime and reappears in a different space time, "Is it really the same you?" Do you experience continuous conscious or do you die to be replaced by a replica? This argument is often discussed in the context of teleportation or mind-uploading. You might also enjoy reading the Wiki pages on Swampman or the Chinese Room.

Otherwise, I think none of that cuts to the real point of the OP, which is that one cannot subjectively experience death or nothingness. We all agree what happens, objectively, to the human body when one dies. The problem is that subjective death seems paradoxical to those of us who are solipsists at heart (perhaps that's all of us at the moment of death).

To address the OP and subsequent posts, I'd never heard of a Boltzmann Brain before and I think it was a brilliant idea here, but due to the problems of identity mentioned above I don't think that an identical self spontaneously created from vacuum fluctuations changes the fact that the original self is still dormant somewhere in inner space. However, I think that similar fluctuations can cause the dormant self to wake up somehow. I think understanding how the dormant self awakens requires understanding of the nature of the dormant self, which isn't something humans are able to do yet. We can't even understand how consciousness exists in the human brain, much less outside of it. However, based on my subjective experience of consciousness as a self-sustaining state which learns and adapts in order to survive, I think it's possible that it persists after death in some abstract form which might, after a sufficiently long time, reform into the type of mind we are familiar with.
Every day I am thankful that I was introduced to psychedelic drugs.
 
 
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